Pegasos III speculation thread
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Donar
    Posts: 142 from 2003/12/27
    From: Germany
  • »27.12.03 - 14:03
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 979 from 2003/6/28
    My idea, taken some things from Donar...


    - Designed for PPC97X (dual compatible)
    - Up to 1Ghz processor bus (or more)
    - PC3200 or faster
    - Firewire 800 (or more)
    - USB 2.0 (using the full speed of this)
    - 3 GigE ports or more (very useful for networking)
    - Digital Audio In
    - Digital Audio Out ( Dolby Digital 5.1 to 7.1 compatible?)
    - Fully IRDA compatible (and then you can use a remote controller and others things)
    - Standard MicroATX Formfactor (MicroATX rulez!)
    - AGP 8x (the higher standard of AGP available preferable)
    - PCI-X/PCI Express
  • »27.12.03 - 16:11
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    marcik
    Posts: 268 from 2003/4/12
    From: Kielce/Krakow,...
    Yeah, I like this, but I think, that with that specs price will be ~2000-3000$ :)
  • »27.12.03 - 16:25
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    > So after the Pegasos II finally arrived, what do you want in Pegasos III?
    > Maybe we can give the developers some clues what we want.

    Naaa,
    it's useless: they don't hear about what we ask.

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »27.12.03 - 17:27
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Donar
    Posts: 142 from 2003/12/27
    From: Germany
  • »27.12.03 - 20:13
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    porneL
    Posts: 49 from 2003/7/17
    nah, not enough. by the time they make the board it will be low-end ;)
    this text is here to confuse you
  • »27.12.03 - 23:59
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2240 from 2003/2/24
    @Miky060
    Well offcourse they won't listen to you and me ...

    1st they have to see what chips they can actually get and use from Marvell,IBM
    and VIA, than their options will be reduced to what these offer.

    After that they will have to decide which market could take several 1000s of boards
    at what price-point and with what requirements.

    And finally they will have to design a board that is attractive to that market both
    in price and features/performance.

    Maybe and only maybe that board will also suit some of our wishes, but that would
    be just coincedent.
  • »28.12.03 - 01:32
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    poundsmack
    Posts: 1346 from 2003/6/8
    From: USA California
    i want a 2 gig g5 super board with all the bells and whisels........ya that would be nice....and mabey an actual bell and one or 2 whisles hehe
    "Poundsmack, official morphzone thread creator" -LorD
    "Wanna be lord of the avatars." -JKD
  • »28.12.03 - 01:34
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Donar
    Posts: 142 from 2003/12/27
    From: Germany
  • »28.12.03 - 08:01
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  • Just looking around
    Gunnar
    Posts: 6 from 2003/12/28
    Hi everybody,

    Xmas is over now and its of course time to make a new wishlish for next christmas - for a Pegasos III.

    But instead of just building a collection of cool sounding features and buzz words we should think
    about what Amiga and MorphOS actually can support.


    Wish:
    I would like to have a cool supercomputer.
    With at least 8 processors each 64 bits.

    Fact:
    Amiga OS and all Amiga OS clones only
    support one CPU.
    64 bit doesn't give any advantage as all.



    My personal opservation:

    MorphOS runs much faster on a 1000Mhz G4
    than MacOS X or Linux on a Dual 970.

    If we consider that multiprocessor and 64 bits
    is of no value for AmigaOS/MorhOS than the Pegasos II is maybe of one of the best possible Amiga designs ever !

    And the Pegasos II has still much room to expand.
    The G4 is available in high clockrates,
    today up to 1.4 Ghz

    Faster G4 and much faster IBM G3 are announced.
    Both claim to reach 2 GHz at 2004.
    Those CPUs can easily used to upgrade
    the current Pegasos family.

    The newt G3 750vx and the G4-RM will provide
    better support for faster DDR ram.

    My hope/wish for the Pegasos III is to provide
    good support for those G3 or G4 chips with DDR.
    IBM has announced that the will soon scale the G3 up to a speed 5 times faster then the Pegasos I was. I hope that Genesi will the next generation G4/G3 CPU to build fast and cool computers which
    are cooler and cheaper than 970 based systems.


    Cheers
    Gunnar
  • »28.12.03 - 12:17
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 90 from 2003/4/13
    Pegasos III will finds it's way into a TV-set imho.
    The Dreambox 7000S is a settopbox running Linux with a
    PPC 250 MHz processor and an ethernet connection
    video in/out - audio in/out DVB etc.
  • »28.12.03 - 13:11
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Donar
    Posts: 142 from 2003/12/27
    From: Germany
  • »28.12.03 - 13:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »29.12.03 - 10:34
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Hawk
    Posts: 204 from 2003/12/29
    From: Tokyo - Japan
    I like the concept of "Cool Computing", that's why I bought a G3 CPU. I wouldn't by a G5 right now... I'd like to see a Pegasos inside a B5-sized mini-laptop, rather than a monster-sized-noise-making-room-heater G5 desktop.

    But, of course, I would prefer a G5 rather than AMD/Intel alternatives in desktops ;-)
    Pegasos II G3@600Mhz (no fan) 512MB RAM (1 slot)
    -- Maxtor 6Y120P0 120GB, 7200 rpm -- ATI Radeon 7500 - (64MB, TV-out)
    -- Minuet Slimline PC case -- MorphOS 1.4.5 + Gentoo
    EFIKA
  • »29.12.03 - 10:43
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    Better just proceed with little sensible steps. I bet no-one want more HW bugfix rounds.

    Look at what northbridges are available and live with them.

    I think things like AGP4x and dual CPU cards are more important than a 64bit CPU. But if the next northbridge already supports PPC970, then why not...

    Some special favorites: a geek/custom (still low cost) expansion port would be nice ...and ... the AmigaOS dongle would also deliver a thousand or two more users... ;-)
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »29.12.03 - 12:36
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Wishmaster
    Posts: 342 from 2003/6/29
    I want the Holy Grail !
    Pegasos PPC
  • »29.12.03 - 15:15
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  • Just looking around
    akauppi
    Posts: 16 from 2003/7/11
    From: Naantali, Suomi
    Since I don't have a Pegasos (yet) this is speculative. But..

    Why not make the main board even smaller? The real hot spot for using PegII would be as tiny-and-quiet media boxes etc. The current mainboard is still too big for that.

    This is where the PC industry is going:

    http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS7748436273.html

    Can we use the same (standard) ITX form factor, possibly inserting the CPU fixed on the motherboard.

    There seems to be only one PCI slot available (small). Is this enough for the graphics card?

    Personally, I can see a lot of use for these gadgets (with Linux) on the embedded arena. Anyone else focusing on that? ;)

    -asko.kauppi@sci.fi
  • »10.01.04 - 14:04
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    liquidbit
    Posts: 407 from 2003/10/12
    What I expect in the next generation Pegasos systems:

    -FireWire 800 port
    -Bluetooth technology
    -S-ATA bus
    -PCI-X slots
    -AGP8X PRO or higher
    -Latest version of DDR-SDRAM
    -RAID SCSI on board
    -USB 2.0 keyboard/mouse support
    -1x Optical NIC
    -1x Gigabit Ethernet NIC
    -IBM Cell technology support
    -Funless cooling technology
    -LCD screen with POST(power-on self-test)

    ...only these at the moment.
    ..there will be only one left.
  • »10.01.04 - 14:38
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
  • »10.01.04 - 16:37
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Donar
    Posts: 142 from 2003/12/27
    From: Germany
    Quote:


    minator schrieb:

    Quote:

    Why should a say 20 GFLOP G3vx be (much) cooler than a 20 GFLOP PPC 970? They are both PPC Processor


    There internal design is very different.
    The 970 will get to that speed a lot sooner than any G3 variant, but will consume a lot more power doing so.


    Hello!

    I dont know what you mean with "speed" (M)Flops or (G)Hz? I did the statement because some people prefered an say G3vx because it will be cooler than a G5. My best guess is that if you take a 20 MFlop G3 and a 20 GFlop G5 they should be comparable in heat dissipation as well.
    You had to tweak the G3 to achieve the 20 GFlop, right? Cache Size, Branch prediction and so on...so Watts consumed might go up for it as well.

    Quote:


    G3s are primarily used in embedded systems, because of this they will be in production for many years to come.


    Ok i did not find the right words to express my concerns. Here is another try: :-)
    You stated that the G3 will live as an embedded
    processor for many years, no problem with that.
    My guess is that the Pegasos 3 will be a "Desktop"
    Mainboard. And i do not want an embedded (slow) processor for my "Flagship".

    For the People who are interested in the 970 in general: I did pick up a nice link on Ars about an PPC 970 development board.

    Klick me.

    Cheers

    Donar
  • »10.01.04 - 17:49
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    downix
    Posts: 105 from 2003/2/10
    From: Lightning capi...
    Nate Downes
    Genesi SARL
  • »10.01.04 - 20:27
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Donar
    Posts: 142 from 2003/12/27
    From: Germany
    Hello!

    My post did address the concerns about price and
    availability of technology/chips for assembling a
    Pegasos with the specs i introduced earlier. I think i showed that it could be done with (cheap)standard parts.
    And we would not lack behind "other" platforms. For the DDR II thing no known parts for me, so no mention of it. Maybe the DDRII controller will be integrated in the PPC?!? :-)

    Quote:


    Not necessarily. There are alternative DDR concepts, including a *wider* DDR bus, 128-bits rather than 64-bits. (So you'd have to double-bank things)...There is also DDR-II technology as well, don't forget.



    The double Bank thingy is Dual Channel DDR. Ok I know this under this name. :-D
    Got this in my Nforce 2.

    Quote:

    Why? AGP 8x is already a technology 2 gens behind, slower than PCI-X 2.0 as well as PCI-Express and Hypertransport.

    Why? Because i have not seen any consumer PCI-X/PCI Express or HT graphics card.

    Quote:

    If your AGP 1x can maintain 1x speeds constantly, while your 8x is fluctuating wildly, guess which one will be faster in the end?


    "If" the 8x link is always fluctuating at over >1x speed then the 8x thingy. :-P

    Quote:


    Ever checked out the latency there? With 4x the potential performance of the AGP 2x card I run on my Athlon, it gets only 5% higher performance. The latency of this arrangement is absolutely horrible, eating up any potential.

    No i did not check the latency. AGP 8x is "standard" nowadays so i chosed it as a minimum
    standard for a Board with a unknown release Date.
    I don't know if i got your sentence right...First i thought your AGP 2x card did not take advantage of the 4x faster Bus of your computer...how should it? But then i formed the following out of it: You run your 2x card in a Pegasos 1x AGP and a PC 8x Bus?!
    Maybe the slight (5%)speed increase is there because your Athlon is not fast enough to feed the GPU. (There is a nice read on Ars Technica about Playstation2 against PC that in some kind addresses your Phenomenon)
    Maybe it is the latency, I don't know.

    :-)

    [hint]
    Maybe bbrv can give us some hint how the Peg 3
    will look like?
    [/hint]
  • »10.01.04 - 21:52
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    downix
    Posts: 105 from 2003/2/10
    From: Lightning capi...
    Quote:


    Donar wrote:
    Hello!

    My post did address the concerns about price and
    availability of technology/chips for assembling a
    Pegasos with the specs i introduced earlier. I think i showed that it could be done with (cheap)standard parts.
    And we would not lack behind "other" platforms. For the DDR II thing no known parts for me, so no mention of it. Maybe the DDRII controller will be integrated in the PPC?!? :-)

    Quote:


    Not necessarily. There are alternative DDR concepts, including a *wider* DDR bus, 128-bits rather than 64-bits. (So you'd have to double-bank things)...There is also DDR-II technology as well, don't forget.



    The double Bank thingy is Dual Channel DDR. Ok I know this under this name. :-D
    Got this in my Nforce 2.

    No, dual-channel DDR is just that, you have *2* DDR channels. I spoke of one double-wide channel.Quote:


    Quote:

    Why? AGP 8x is already a technology 2 gens behind, slower than PCI-X 2.0 as well as PCI-Express and Hypertransport.

    Why? Because i have not seen any consumer PCI-X/PCI Express or HT graphics card.

    The Peg III is also not going to see the light of day till the middle of the year at the earliest. The first cards running PCI-Express are slated to be shipping around this timeQuote:


    Quote:

    If your AGP 1x can maintain 1x speeds constantly, while your 8x is fluctuating wildly, guess which one will be faster in the end?


    "If" the 8x link is always fluctuating at over >1x speed then the 8x thingy. :-P

    Big IF, and most of time time it's not.Quote:



    Quote:


    Ever checked out the latency there? With 4x the potential performance of the AGP 2x card I run on my Athlon, it gets only 5% higher performance. The latency of this arrangement is absolutely horrible, eating up any potential.

    No i did not check the latency. AGP 8x is "standard" nowadays so i chosed it as a minimum
    standard for a Board with a unknown release Date.
    I don't know if i got your sentence right...First i thought your AGP 2x card did not take advantage of the 4x faster Bus of your computer...how should it? But then i formed the following out of it: You run your 2x card in a Pegasos 1x AGP and a PC 8x Bus?!

    No, my AGP 8x card in an AGP 2x bus is only 5% slower than it is on an AGP 8x bus.Quote:


    Maybe the slight (5%)speed increase is there because your Athlon is not fast enough to feed the GPU. (There is a nice read on Ars Technica about Playstation2 against PC that in some kind addresses your Phenomenon)

    And why would an Athlon be feeding the video card at all? The whole point of AGP is so that the CPU doesn't have to feed the GPU.Quote:


    Maybe it is the latency, I don't know.

    :-)

    [hint]
    Maybe bbrv can give us some hint how the Peg 3
    will look like?
    [/hint]

    *shrug*
    Nate Downes
    Genesi SARL
  • »10.01.04 - 22:13
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Donar
    Posts: 142 from 2003/12/27
    From: Germany
    Thanks for your reply.
    Unfortunately i did not find anything about an 128 bit wide DDR bus which is not dual channel.
    But who cares. I think we both agree that the "RAM technology" used should be fast enough, so that it wouldn't be a bottleneck for the system.

    Didn`t know about the PCI-Express GFX cards.
    So you are right, if medium priced cards are out when Peg 3 ships we wouldn`t need AGP anymore.

    Quote:


    And why would an Athlon be feeding the video card at all? The whole point of AGP is so that the CPU doesn't have to feed the GPU.


    It's not the whole point but part of, a second point is to give the GFX card *fast*access to (cheap) main memory because textures were to big for the little on board memory on the GFX card's back then. So having AGP 8x does not mean to have more FPS.

    But if i'm honest i have to admit i had to do a quick search and read some stuff to realise this.

    For the interested: Klick Me

    I'm in no way deep in computer technologys, im interested in this but that's all. Because of that i have to rely on things i read. I got this from Ars Technica Ps2 against PC:
    Quote:


    The first stage of the process is called the geometry stage. This is where a description of the object and its position in the 3D world are created. This description, called a display list, is a sequence of commands, parameters, and other data that can be further processed by the next stage. In order to create the display list, the CPU has to first get the 3D engine code and the data out of main memory and load it into the L1 and L2 caches to be worked on......(snip)

    ...The actual rendering of the 2D bitmap from the 3D scene is handled by the video card, so this means that the display lists produced by the CPU have to make their way out of main memory, across the AGP bus, and into the video card's video memory.


    For me this means no Display list no frames. Be it the CPU that can't do physics (how far would the player jump at given speed) and creating a Display list at the same time or large texture jamming the bus. Thats what i meant with "feeding the GPU".

    (Re)Learned a lot today :-)
  • »11.01.04 - 10:14
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    downix
    Posts: 105 from 2003/2/10
    From: Lightning capi...
    @Domar

    That test is against older-gen cards, which required the CPU to generate the display list.

    Modern 3D cards carry with them a processing unit, called a GPU, which generates these display lists instead.
    Nate Downes
    Genesi SARL
  • »11.01.04 - 15:54
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