MorphOS runs on QEmu
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1050 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Do these applications rely on KVM for virtualization?


    Running on a PPC CPU o you could virrualise the CPU with KVM, on an Intel CPU it would obviously have to emulate the PPC CPU.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »23.08.17 - 22:46
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10489 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > Some progress: [...]

    "Current status for OSes I've tried:
    - AROS boots (after I've fixed some bugs in it [...]) but keyboard doesn't work [...] and time is going slow [...]
    - Linux: kernel boots but hangs during user space [...]
    - AmigaOS 4 seems to boot but display is not working so not usable [...]
    - MorphOS does not boot (it seems to either deliberately do stuff to prevent it from running on QEMU or it has bugs but developers are not communicative about it)
    "
    http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/qemu-ppc/2018-02/msg00189.html
  • »16.02.18 - 00:05
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    acepeg wrote:
    The problem is that modern entry level pc's are not faster than ten years Old core2duo. It's another problem. I agree that we are geek in fact. But what i want to explain is that nothing serious can be done with émulation. Most of classic users prefer native Amiga to winuae even it's 100times faster. So i think this is the same for Os4 users and Morphos one also. I don't say that it's bad for Morphos. For Os4 it's à différent case since they have only overpriced hardware disponible.


    Core i3 and i5 systems ARE faster than Core Duo systems (I own both), and a relatively cheap Ryzen based system is also superior.
    Emulation COULD provide adequate performance, IF it wasn't focused on low end cpus like the 603e.
    And while I own legacy Amiga hardware, I am increasingly defaulting to emulation and FPGA platforms.

    So...obviously I disagree with the majority of your stated opinions.

    Also, a MorphOS X64 port could benefit from the use of something like QEMU in order to run our legacy ABox environment and its applications.

    The future is not the retention of a diminishing based of legacy hardware, its moving on to bigger and better systems.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.02.18 - 17:11
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10489 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Emulation COULD provide adequate performance, IF it wasn't focused
    > on low end cpus like the 603e.

    The more complex the emulated CPU, the slower the emulation.
  • »16.02.18 - 19:46
    Profile
  • Just looking around
    dark_knight
    Posts: 11 from 2012/8/12
    The lack of available documentation seems to be the biggest hurdle for emulation. An efficient emulation environment can be developed if you have access to the source. However, it's difficult to get hold of this hardware documentation without signing contracts that limit your ability to re-implement it, so developers must work it out for themselves and spend much of their time writing workarounds to cater for various scenarios.
  • »17.02.18 - 00:05
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Emulation COULD provide adequate performance, IF it wasn't focused
    > on low end cpus like the 603e.

    The more complex the emulated CPU, the slower the emulation.


    Not necessarily true. Cpus that feature more advanced/powerful instructions can be emulated utilizing similar advanced instructions in the target processor. Emulation could be multi-threaded to some degree (particularly when emulating out of order cpus and cpus with speculative branching) allowing for some SMP support (even in situations where the emulated cpu is running non-SMP code).
    A really fast emulated 603e is still not going to be a match for a more complex emulated PPC cpu, even with the added overhead needed to emulate the more advanced component.
    And the limitations of the earlier component WILL negatively impact its ultimate capabilities.

    Adding more advanced features to early cpus is ALWAYS a bonus.
    To give you an example, we were initially considering added HD6309 instructions to an MC6809 FGPA project I have been working on.
    This would give us two additional 8 bit accumulators, an additional 16 bit accumulator and a new 32 bit accumulator, as well as new instructions like a divide instruction (to complement the 6809's multiplication instruction).
    That's still under consideration, but I'm also looking into simply using the libraries the FPGA itself is capable of executing.

    How does this relate to software emulation?
    Pretty directly.
    Efficiency and speed ARE affected by complexity, BUT how the software initially analyses the code it is to execute, and what options/paths it takes to accomplish the emulation are affected by both what it is running on (the capabilities of the host system) AND the capabilities of that which is to be emulated.

    To simplify, I could build one heck of a emulated 6809 system, with multiple cores, very high speed...greatly improved power over the older silicon, BUT I'd always be better off emulating a 68000 (or '020, '040, '060).
    Similarly, an emulated 603e is better than an emulated 68000.
    SO, it seems fairly obvious that a more powerful PPC WOULD lead not better emulation, not necessarily slower.

    [ Edited by Jim 17.02.2018 - 11:58 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »17.02.18 - 17:55
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    polluks
    Posts: 432 from 2007/10/23
    From: Gelsenkirchen,...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf schrieb:
    Further progress:
    ...

    Aha, day X is coming closer.
    Pegasos II G4: MorphOS 3.9, Zalman M220W · iMac G5 12,1
    Power Mac G3: OSX 10.3 · PowerBook 5,8: OSX 10.5, MorphOS 3.11
  • »30.06.18 - 00:50
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1050 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Raf_MegaByte wrote:
    Quote:



    This screenshot tells almost everything. In detail - bigfoot made some patches for qemu to make it emulate the Pegasos2. And no, MorphOS 1.4 won't run on it due to some bug in OF emulation.

    [ Edited by scf on 2008/4/30 14:30 ]


    Last time I used virtual machines like QEMU or PearPC on Intel X86, these were uncapable to emulate a PPC clocked more than 75 MHz...

    A lightweight OS like MorphOS (or even AmigaOS) could run in such slooooow speed, but it is unusable for many uses, like playing DVD videos that require speed clocked minimum at 500/600 MHz.

    If the PPC virtual machine was not being DRAMATICALLY enhanched and Clock Speed raised up, then the emulated machine it is almost unusable.

    IMHO nice proof of concept, but nothing else.

    [ Edited by Raf_MegaByte on 2008/5/1 12:53 ]

    [ Edited by Raf_MegaByte on 2008/5/1 13:03 ]



    QEMU PPC-JIT on Threadripper vs QEMU KVM on a G5.

    https://image.ibb.co/koER1d/download_20180624_183327.png
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »30.06.18 - 19:45
    Profile
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 415 from 2003/8/18
    It boots :)

    morphos-qemu.png
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »04.07.18 - 13:43
    Profile Visit Website
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    polluks
    Posts: 432 from 2007/10/23
    From: Gelsenkirchen,...
    Quote:

    Leo schrieb:
    It boots :)

    morphos-qemu.png

    Aha, please execute Code:
    c:cpu
    Pegasos II G4: MorphOS 3.9, Zalman M220W · iMac G5 12,1
    Power Mac G3: OSX 10.3 · PowerBook 5,8: OSX 10.5, MorphOS 3.11
  • »04.07.18 - 22:19
    Profile
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 415 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:

    polluks wrote:
    Quote:

    Leo schrieb:
    It boots :)

    morphos-qemu.png

    Aha, please execute Code:
    c:cpu





    Ht1xC4a.png
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »05.07.18 - 09:48
    Profile Visit Website
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 415 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:

    Papiosaur wrote:
    Excellent news !

    Thanks Leo for the snapshot.

    It usable ?




    Not really, not yet:

    - it crashes frequently (I guess its due to qemu emulation)
    - it's slow (it takes at least 2min to open OWB & several minutes to show installation wizard)
    - it's 2D only and I guess there's no sound

    But still, I think it's a good thing to have the ability to run it on any platform. For example I can now finally test cross compiled apps I created. Before that I couldn't do it unless I decided to buy a machine just for that.

    [ Edited by Leo 05.07.2018 - 13:01 ]
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »05.07.18 - 13:59
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Papiosaur
    Posts: 1226 from 2003/4/10
    From: France
    Thanks Leo for your answer :-)

    I look that :
    Quote:

    Known problems:

    - USB devices don't work on mac99.

    - The OpenBIOS firmware does not correctly describe PCI buses of the emulated machine which makes MorphOS try to access devices on the wrong PCI bus. This OpenBIOS patch provides a workaround, a patched OpenBIOS binary is here.

    - Mouse movement periodically freezes and CPU usage is high on mac99.
    This is caused by a high priority temperature.sensor task which presumably tries to access temperature sensors over I2C but this is not emulated by QEMU so this hangs waiting for an interrupt which is not delivered so it has to time out. Workaround is to lower priority of this task from Utilities / Task Manager until this is implemented in QEMU.<\li>

    - MorphOS does not boot on sam460ex
    For some reason it cannot find PCI devices and cannot boot because of that (either won't find SATA controller and thus boot CD or HD or if booting from usb-storage with the SD card image it won't find display device so no output). This problem may actually exist on real hardware too according to this forum thread, where similar issues are reported but I'm not sure. It looks like MorphOS tries to access PCI registers with an offset of 2 for some reason. This may not happen on real hardware or may wrap in some way and provide different results with some devices working and others failing or people just use PCIe graphics and avoid PCI devices.



    Maybe some improvement by MorphOS Team for a best emulation in next release?
  • »05.07.18 - 16:51
    Profile Visit Website
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 415 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:

    Papiosaur wrote:
    Thanks Leo for your answer :-)

    Maybe some improvement by MorphOS Team for a best emulation in next release?


    I don't think so. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the contrary (like it would stop working).
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »05.07.18 - 17:15
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1050 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Leo wrote:
    Quote:

    Papiosaur wrote:
    Excellent news !

    Thanks Leo for the snapshot.

    It usable ?




    Not really, not yet:

    - it crashes frequently (I guess its due to qemu emulation)
    - it's slow (it takes at least 2min to open OWB & several minutes to show installation wizard)
    - it's 2D only and I guess there's no sound

    But still, I think it's a good thing to have the ability to run it on any platform. For example I can now finally test cross compiled apps I created. Before that I couldn't do it unless I decided to buy a machine just for that.


    Which branch did you pull to build this Leo?

    I want to try it on my 4.2GHz 7700k.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »06.07.18 - 11:00
    Profile
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 415 from 2003/8/18
    @Intuition: master.
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »07.07.18 - 14:55
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1050 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Leo wrote:
    @Intuition: master.



    Thanks Leo, I'll pull it later and have a play.

    I hope the recently released MorphOS for Workgroups works :)
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »07.07.18 - 16:52
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1050 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Woohoo!!!!

    Posting this from MorphOS 3.11 in QEMU master from a Thinkpad with 2.9GHz 4th Gen i7 CPU and it's quite good. Graphics are a bit slow but the CPU is much fastter than I expected it to be. Should be a lot faster when I try it on my 7700k tower hopefully.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »08.07.18 - 20:09
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 656 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Woohoo!!!!

    Posting this from MorphOS 3.11 in QEMU master from a Thinkpad with 2.9GHz 4th Gen i7 CPU and it's quite good. Graphics are a bit slow but the CPU is much fastter than I expected it to be. Should be a lot faster when I try it on my 7700k tower hopefully.


    Remember benchmark tools are very misleading under emulation. You should try something CPU intensive like file compression or re-encoding video.
  • »08.07.18 - 20:32
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1050 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Woohoo!!!!

    Posting this from MorphOS 3.11 in QEMU master from a Thinkpad with 2.9GHz 4th Gen i7 CPU and it's quite good. Graphics are a bit slow but the CPU is much fastter than I expected it to be. Should be a lot faster when I try it on my 7700k tower hopefully.


    Remember benchmark tools are very misleading under emulation. You should try something CPU intensive like file compression or re-encoding video.


    I haven't benchmarked it yet, just commented based on the general feel and snappiness of it etc.

    Going to try installing it to a disk image next, hopefully will take less than 30 minutes! :)
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »08.07.18 - 20:49
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1050 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    I got it installed to a qcow2 image but have no idea how to make qemu boot from it, so I'm going to bed and will tackle it tomorrow evening.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »09.07.18 - 00:19
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Yeah, let us know how it benches, Nik.

    Since I have an i7 Thinkpad that sounds interesting.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.07.18 - 03:15
    Profile