Mac Mini G4 1.25Ghz VS Power Mac G5 2.7Ghz
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12110 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I have seen comments online about capacitors needing replacement on iMac G5s,
    > is that standard practice on those machines?

    It's long been standard practice on the first two iMac G5 generations (PowerMac8,1 and PowerMac8,2) but not on the last generation (PowerMac12,1), which is the only one supported by MorphOS:

    http://www.maccetera.com/macstuff/imac_g5.html

    Due to age, the issue may increasingly affect the last generation as well. I'm not sure whether Apple switched from electrolytic capacitors to ceramic capacitors for that generation. There are also aging effects with ceramic capacitors, albeit to a lesser extent.
  • »30.11.23 - 12:04
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1246 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Capricornus wrote:
    I have seen comments online about capacitors needing replacement on iMac G5s, is that standard practice on those machines? I have replaced them on my Amiga 1200 right after purchase, but I didn't know macs suffered with the same issues.


    In "iSight" iMacs the capacitors are not an issue. The older, 1,8 GHz version did suffer from capacitor leaks AFAIK.
    But You'd probably want to replace the internal hard drive with an SSD for example? That's quite a lot of work in an iMac, while in PowerMac you just open the side cover and swap the old harddrive out and the new one in (no screwdriver required).
  • »30.11.23 - 12:17
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    matt3
    Posts: 671 from 2004/2/10
    @matt3 - Quote:

    I took a 2.0 GHz single processor PCIe system and put a 2.5 from a QUAD in it.

    @Capricornus wrote: "Nice solution, is the swap difficult? I looked at some videos related to the liquid cooling servicing/replacement and a lot of it looks pretty difficult and risky."


    The swap was pretty easy and straight forward. There is a video on yt on how to do that.

    As Andreas mentioned, I dumped the entire liquid cooling system and just used the 2.0/2.3 GHz PCIe heatsink on the 2.5 that are massive and much better than heatsinks on the older PCIX systems.

    This is my ideal system for the following reasons:
    1. It runs much cooler, since the heatsink is effective and the fans are quiet even under heavy cpu load.
    2. MorphOS only uses 1 core of one processor, so having just one is all that is needed. Technically the 2.5 GHz CPU is a Dual core so you still have an extra core but only one CPU.
    3. It uses PCIe video cards and Bigfoot has a bounty to update MorphOS (like AOS 4.1) to the latest/later Radeon chips. The bounty is likely nearly completed, although I haven't heard from Bigfoot to confirm this.
    4. I use 2 27 dual monitors day to day for MorphOS and you can't do that with a powerbook or imac. I use ZVNC as well, so I can use the same dual monitors with the pc and only one keyboard mouse.
    5. King of the hill status, this system is at the top (the 2.7 PCIX feels faster for video playback and wayfarer) but the PCIe systems have faster buses than the PCIX systems. They also get the newer PCIe video cards where the older PCIX systems use AGP.

    The things to consider:
    1. You will need a cheapo PCIx NIC card as the motherboard for ethernet, as this is not officially supported system yet and the onboard nics aren't working yet with MorphOS.
    2. You should keep a PPC/MAC BIOS radeon card so you can easily install/update MorphOS. The new radeon cards do not support it, MorphOS will work and boot just fine on them but the Mac will not boot to open firmware.
    3. The video drivers are in process, so you will need to read over the articles on MZ to see what ones work right now and what ones don't. I'm just using a PPC MAC X1900 and it works fine for me now since it works with dual monitors and boots to open firmware. Cards working on the X5000 may not work on the PowerMac PCIe yet, since Bigfoot is using an X5000 (we need to send him a PCIe Mac :) )
    4. This is not a silent system, the fans do spin at a low speed and isn't that noticeable.
    5. You will need the worlds longest torc drivers to get the heatsink out :)


    I use this for my job every day, where 80% of everything is done on it, so my goal was to make this as fast and quiet as possible. It does all this really well, thanks to the MorphOS Team efforts.

    [ Edited by matt3 30.11.2023 - 06:56 ]
  • »30.11.23 - 12:44
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12110 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Bigfoot has a bounty to update MorphOS (like AOS 4.1)
    > to the latest/later Radeon chips.

    No, the 3D driver bounty ends two generations before the oldest fully OS4-supported PCIe GPUs, as I told you half a year ago:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13564&forum=11&start=14

    It won't add any new Radeon chips, just add 3D drivers for cards already 2D-supported currently. Or has the bounty goal changed meanwhile?
    As to "latest", even OS4 is 4 generations behind by now.

    > You will need a cheapo PCIx NIC card as the motherboard for ethernet

    More like a daughterboard ;-)

    > The video drivers are in process, so you will need to read over the
    > articles on MZ to see what ones work right now and what ones don't.
    > [...] Cards working on the X5000 may not work on the PowerMac PCIe yet

    I'm afraid Bigfoot's upcoming 3D drivers won't change this.
  • »30.11.23 - 20:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    matt3
    Posts: 671 from 2004/2/10
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Thanks for helping my memory, guess I need a reboot. :)
  • »30.11.23 - 21:47
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2264 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    matt3 wrote:

    4. I use 2 27 dual monitors day to day for MorphOS and you can't do that with a powerbook or imac. I use ZVNC as well, so I can use the same dual monitors with the pc and only one keyboard mouse.



    Somewhat OT, but what PCIe card gives you Dual-head support? Or those 2 monitors connected to "modern" outputs (HDMI,DP) and what resolutions do you get?
  • »02.12.23 - 14:40
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  • Just looking around
    Capricornus
    Posts: 16 from 2023/11/27
    Hello,

    I know it has been a while and thank you for all your thoughts and suggestions. After some long thinking and jumping between hunting the "silent upgrade" Mac Mini (which isn't easy) and going for the less visually appealing (for me) iSight iMac, I have eventually arrived at a decision to go for the Power Mac G5 Dual Core (2.3) - picture below is of the actual machine, personally I think it's probably the best option if you want good performance but don't want to worry about liquid cooling.

    Serial number lookup brings this version for anyone who is interested: everymac.com

    Now I think I need to have a good look around for an ATI card :)

    Regards

    powermacg5.jpg
  • »16.02.24 - 14:56
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    matt3
    Posts: 671 from 2004/2/10
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Quote:

    matt3 wrote:

    4. I use 2 27 dual monitors day to day for MorphOS and you can't do that with a powerbook or imac. I use ZVNC as well, so I can use the same dual monitors with the pc and only one keyboard mouse.



    Somewhat OT, but what PCIe card gives you Dual-head support? Or those 2 monitors connected to "modern" outputs (HDMI,DP) and what resolutions do you get?



    OT? :) For me it is a good start...

    The X1900 PPC Mac version gives dual head support, works great!

    I use one DVI to DVI on one 27" HD screen at 1920x1080 HD. This is my second, non ambient screen.
    I use one DVI to HDMI on the other 27" on a 4k screen at 1900x1200. I ran in higher resolutions, but 27" is to small for my eyes.

    I did use a DVI to Display port converter for a while and it died so I just went to the simpler HDMI.

    I also had to modify some screens with the 4k screens to get them working, can't remember what I had to do exactly but sure is was clock related...

    Chris Edwards just picked up the identical card for his "new" PCIe system, so he will have a video for it sometime...

    [ Edited by matt3 17.02.2024 - 05:53 ]
  • »17.02.24 - 11:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    matt3
    Posts: 671 from 2004/2/10
    Quote:

    Capricornus wrote:
    Hello,

    I know it has been a while and thank you for all your thoughts and suggestions. After some long thinking and jumping between hunting the "silent upgrade" Mac Mini (which isn't easy) and going for the less visually appealing (for me) iSight iMac, I have eventually arrived at a decision to go for the Power Mac G5 Dual Core (2.3) - picture below is of the actual machine, personally I think it's probably the best option if you want good performance but don't want to worry about liquid cooling.

    Serial number lookup brings this version for anyone who is interested: everymac.com

    Now I think I need to have a good look around for an ATI card :)

    Regards

    powermacg5.jpg


    Good choice!

    Here is a video to show you how to upgrade the cpu, to me it is worth it:
    PCIe upgrade to 2.5GHz

    Remember there are very few PCIe Radeon cards that have Mac PPC bios on them. The 1900 is one of the few and they go for around $120 on ebay. Without it, you will have to get MorphOS on the drive another way and just boot off of it. There is plenty of posts on MZ on that topic.

    Enjoy your nice system!
  • »17.02.24 - 11:46
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2264 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    matt3 wrote:

    The X1900 PPC Mac version



    So, not one of AtomBIOS "PC" cards, and no modern connectors.

    But it does 2x DualLink DVI so it should be able to do 2x 2560x1440 for which I would need a 2nd active adaptor.

    Well and a PCIe G5 since it does not exist in AGP....

    Now AGP cards do exist as PC version which might work after a flash but will surely fail at dual screen support.

    I did find some HD#### AGP-cards that are listed as compatible and should have ATOMBios and could put my APG G5 into a similar situation as PCIe one (as in no boot screen). But again will most likely be restrained to 1 screen.
    On the plus side, that 1 screen might be on HDMI and go to 2560x1440 or even 4k (@30Hz I'd guess).

    Tempting......
  • »17.02.24 - 14:02
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    matt3
    Posts: 671 from 2004/2/10
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Quote:

    matt3 wrote:

    The X1900 PPC Mac version



    So, not one of AtomBIOS "PC" cards, and no modern connectors.

    But it does 2x DualLink DVI so it should be able to do 2x 2560x1440 for which I would need a 2nd active adaptor.

    Well and a PCIe G5 since it does not exist in AGP....

    Now AGP cards do exist as PC version which might work after a flash but will surely fail at dual screen support.

    I did find some HD#### AGP-cards that are listed as compatible and should have ATOMBios and could put my APG G5 into a similar situation as PCIe one (as in no boot screen). But again will most likely be restrained to 1 screen.
    On the plus side, that 1 screen might be on HDMI and go to 2560x1440 or even 4k (@30Hz I'd guess).

    Tempting......




    For AGP I used a 1950Pro PC card with dual had support. Worked great!

    I do eventually want to try out some of the PCIe cards to see what works, I don't need custom roms, just the PC version. Wonder what the fastest dual head/screen pcie video card that runs right now?
  • »17.02.24 - 14:45
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2264 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    matt3 wrote:

    For AGP I used a 1950Pro PC card with dual had support. Worked great!




    Nice, but couldn't find any hard info on whether those DVIs are dual link (if its only one I'm back to the genuine 9650 that I already have).

    Just for giggles I put in a bid for 1GB HD4650 with HDMI/DVI/VGA let's see if I can get it within budget....


    [ Edited by Kronos 17.02.2024 - 14:56 ]
  • »17.02.24 - 14:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12110 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Remember there are very few PCIe Radeon cards that
    > have Mac PPC bios on them. The 1900 is one of the few

    AFAIK, it's the only one.
  • »17.02.24 - 17:27
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    eastone
    Posts: 44 from 2007/8/4
    From: Vaasa/Finland
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Just for giggles I put in a bid for 1GB HD4650 with HDMI/DVI/VGA let's see if I can get it within budget....



    From my experience: I tested 3 Radeon HD AGP cards, but in G4. These cards are Radeon 3450, 3650, 4650 and only the first one works well (only 2d of course). The other two worked at a speed of 1fp3s..... Besides, in the G5 pci-e, the highest card I managed to run was also a Radeon 3450 (unsuccessfully with 4560, 6450, r230, 4870)
  • »17.02.24 - 21:10
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2264 from 2003/2/24
    Well I do have options if I get that card:

    G5
    G4 QuickSilver (with taping some pins)
    PegasosII
    Efika
  • »17.02.24 - 21:49
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    armo
    Posts: 36 from 2003/8/1
    From: Krakow - Poland
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Well I do have options if I get that card:

    G5
    G4 QuickSilver (with taping some pins)
    PegasosII
    Efika


    Pegasos II and Efika accepts only AGP 3.3V
    https://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

    I have "tested" Radeon HD4350 PCI 3.0 with Efika and Pegaosos I but without real success.
    Only Efika boots but MorphOS stops loading and some point ... but without any video out.
    Rafael/ARMO
    tdolphin.org     tdolphin.itch.io     GitHub
  • »19.02.24 - 12:57
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 358 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Quote:

    armo wrote:
    Pegasos II and Efika accepts only AGP 3.3V
    https://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

    I have "tested" Radeon HD4350 PCI 3.0 with Efika and Pegaosos I but without real success.
    Only Efika boots but MorphOS stops loading and some point ... but without any video out.



    In real Pegasos 2 and Efika has PCI 66MHz controller, not AGP. I.e. we can use PCI 3.3V cards and AGP 1 ( 3.3 V) in PCI mode.

    I tested HD4350 PCI and it works in Pegasos 2 PCI 33 MHz slot, and not works with Efika.
    Link.

    [ Edited by sailor 19.02.2024 - 17:13 ]
    AmigaOS3: Amiga 1200
    AmigaOS4: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »19.02.24 - 17:11
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2264 from 2003/2/24
    Well the 4650 went over budget, so I snatched a 3450, will see if and how that works out.
  • »19.02.24 - 18:28
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  • Just looking around
    Capricornus
    Posts: 16 from 2023/11/27
    I managed to get the ATI Radeon X1900 XT 512 MB PCI Express last week, waiting for that to arrive any day now. We'll see if it works.
  • »22.02.24 - 09:49
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2264 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Well the 4650 went over budget, so I snatched a 3450, will see if and how that works out.


    Quick test yesterday in the G5, everything is a mess and only worked every 2nd or 3rd boot.
    Deleted all prefs that may connect to older monitors or the 9650 and updated to the latest beta.

    Now I get trouble free 2560x1440 on the HDMI but nothing useable on DVI, neither single nor dual monitor.

    Wether its the prefs file or if there were changes in the driver I can’t say.

    Will test it on the G4 later as single screen is just no option no matter how big and the Voodoo is a no go on G5s.

    But before that I will hook it up to a 4k screen to see how far it will go.
  • »22.02.24 - 11:10
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  • Just looking around
    Capricornus
    Posts: 16 from 2023/11/27
    Hello,

    So I have finally found some time to try out my Powermac G5 11,2 with the ATI Radeon X1900 XT 512 MB PCI Express graphics card, and.. the screen stays blank - no chimes, no flashing on the power button, just slowly increasing speed of fans. Any ideas?

    Edit: I just read that it needs a separate power connector, oops

    Edit: Does anyone have any idea of what cable I need and where to plug it in?

    [ Edited by Capricornus 25.04.2024 - 13:10 ]
  • »25.04.24 - 12:13
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    matt3
    Posts: 671 from 2004/2/10
    Quote:

    Capricornus wrote:
    Hello,

    So I have finally found some time to try out my Powermac G5 11,2 with the ATI Radeon X1900 XT 512 MB PCI Express graphics card, and.. the screen stays blank - no chimes, no flashing on the power button, just slowly increasing speed of fans. Any ideas?

    Edit: I just read that it needs a separate power connector, oops

    Edit: Does anyone have any idea of what cable I need and where to plug it in?


    Congratulations!

    My cable came with the card when I bought it, but they have to be on ebay or similar.

    If the ATI Radeon is not the PPC Mac version you will not be able to get into early startup and boot from a CD to install MorphOS for the first time to upgrade. So you will have to have a hard disk with MorphOS installed on it and it will just boot into MorphOS on the PC card without any issues.

    There is a seller on ebay selling PPC Mac X1900 he claims are new. I have ordered one from him and it worked perfectly. I do wonder if he flashed old stock.

    If you watch Chris Edwards latest MorphOS video from a week or so ago, the took an 11,2 from the beginning and got it working by adding the video card mentioned above and a nic. It might be worth checking out... I think the cable was discussed in the comments and he went over it.

    Good luck and keep us posted.
  • »25.04.24 - 13:35
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  • Just looking around
    Capricornus
    Posts: 16 from 2023/11/27
    This is the exact card I got: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116053597367
  • »25.04.24 - 13:56
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  • Just looking around
    Capricornus
    Posts: 16 from 2023/11/27
    Quote:

    matt3 wrote:
    Quote:

    Capricornus wrote:
    Hello,

    So I have finally found some time to try out my Powermac G5 11,2 with the ATI Radeon X1900 XT 512 MB PCI Express graphics card, and.. the screen stays blank - no chimes, no flashing on the power button, just slowly increasing speed of fans. Any ideas?

    Edit: I just read that it needs a separate power connector, oops

    Edit: Does anyone have any idea of what cable I need and where to plug it in?


    Congratulations!

    My cable came with the card when I bought it, but they have to be on ebay or similar.

    If the ATI Radeon is not the PPC Mac version you will not be able to get into early startup and boot from a CD to install MorphOS for the first time to upgrade. So you will have to have a hard disk with MorphOS installed on it and it will just boot into MorphOS on the PC card without any issues.

    There is a seller on ebay selling PPC Mac X1900 he claims are new. I have ordered one from him and it worked perfectly. I do wonder if he flashed old stock.

    If you watch Chris Edwards latest MorphOS video from a week or so ago, the took an 11,2 from the beginning and got it working by adding the video card mentioned above and a nic. It might be worth checking out... I think the cable was discussed in the comments and he went over it.

    Good luck and keep us posted.


    That is a very useful video, many thanks!
  • »25.04.24 - 13:58
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