Tabor
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 141 from 2004/1/6
    I have to admit that part of the fascination I have with MorphOS and Amiga OS is the fact that "elusive" hardware is required (even more in case of the latter). But looking at it objectively MorphOS x86 would:

    1. Make itself even more accessible
    2. Possibly convince some Amiga OS users to switch, or at least try it
    3. Make it easier for open source software to be ported (I stand to be corrected)
    4. Allow MOS to run on brand new, relatively cheap components which can be bought from the local PC store

    Frankly, I can't wait.
  • »21.11.17 - 21:01
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1805 from 2003/6/4
    And I don't get tired to repeat the need for more raw power if MorphOS should get used as everyday machine.
    Today I had pretty hard times with pretty standard things: browsing a website (okay a JS JIT would improve things to some extend) - it was rather unusable (www.lumitronix.de) slow, slow slow and eventually I ran into a low RAM situation... Then I downloaded the current LED product catalogue from nichia.com - a pdf of 27MB size and loading the pages, well it took pretty serious time. All in all it was really an unpleasant experience and no fluent work flow was possible...

    Okay with a G5 instead of the G4 (Mac mini1.5GHz 1 GB) it would have been a bit better, maybe about twice the speed and the low RAM situation would have been avoided, but I need way more power. 10 times or so would be a good start. With x64 no prob, with ppc - rather impossible (a power9 may offer that, but well...).
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »21.11.17 - 22:48
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4305 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    And I don't get tired to repeat the need for more raw power if MorphOS should get used as everyday machine.
    Today I had pretty hard times with pretty standard things: browsing a website (okay a JS JIT would improve things to some extend) - it was rather unusable (www.lumitronix.de) slow, slow slow and eventually I ran into a low RAM situation... Then I downloaded the current LED product catalogue from nichia.com - a pdf of 27MB size and loading the pages, well it took pretty serious time. All in all it was really an unpleasant experience and no fluent work flow was possible...

    Okay with a G5 instead of the G4 (Mac mini1.5GHz 1 GB) it would have been a bit better, maybe about twice the speed and the low RAM situation would have been avoided, but I need way more power. 10 times or so would be a good start. With x64 no prob, with ppc - rather impossible (a power9 may offer that, but well...).






    Until we have SMP support (and that isn't supposed to happen until the X64 transition), we will not have the most nd of power you are looking for (particularly if you are seriously looking for acten fold improvement).

    Although...with support for eight threads, if it had SMP support, the T2080 laptop being discussed would be about ten times more powerful. ;-)
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.11.17 - 19:03
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    polluks
    Posts: 311 from 2007/10/23
    From: Gelsenkirchen,...
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    Until we have SMP support (and that isn't supposed to happen until the X64 transition), we will not have the most nd of power you are looking for (particularly if you are seriously looking for acten fold improvement).

    Well, OS X has SMP without X64, please explain the dependency.
    Pegasos II G4: MorphOS 3.9, Zalman M220W
    Power Mac G3: OSX 10.3 · PowerBook 5,8: OSX 10.5, MorphOS 3.9
  • »26.11.17 - 03:08
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1682 from 2003/2/24
    There is none obviously.

    But since both would require major API/ABI changes it would make little sense to do one without the other.

    [ Edited by Kronos 26.11.2017 - 12:06 ]
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »26.11.17 - 06:30
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2469 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> SMP support [...] isn't supposed to happen until the X64 transition

    > please explain the dependency.

    geit explained it 4½ years ago:
    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9204&forum=11&start=14


    Good explanation by geit.

    Since lack of software for the new x64 version of MorphOS is a big concern for all users, and the Dev. Team as well, is it reasonable to ask the Dev. Team if it would be possible to create one or more of the following things, which would help solve the lack of native software problem?

    1. if possible, create a "Trance" like translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run all, or most Linux x64 software, without any alteration.

    2. if #1 is not feasible, or desirable, create development tools that make porting x64 Linux software to the new MorphOS for x64 easy and quick.

    3. if neither #1, or #2 are feasible, or desirable, create MorphOS for x64 so that it can be run hosted, hiding the underlying Linux, or Windows host OS, but allowing host OS software to be run transparently from the Ambient desktop of MorphOS for x64, similar to how AEROS, AmiKit emulation and/or the A.L.I.C.E. laptop work, with the "Rabbit Hole".

    Which ever direction the MorphOS Dev. Team decides to go, I hope that they will collaborate with many third party programmers during the creation of MorphOS for x64, so that we will have dozens of quality software applications and a few games, which are ready to run on the new MorphOS for x64, at the time it is first released.

    Edit: (removed double negative)

    [ Edited by amigadave 26.11.2017 - 15:06 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »26.11.17 - 23:04
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9350 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > a "Trance" like translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run [...] Linux x64 software

    This wouldn‘t be like Trance at all, but like WINE. Trance translates the ISA and retains the API, while a layer that allows MorphOS to run Linux software would translate the API and retain the ISA.
  • »26.11.17 - 23:36
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 243 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Since lack of software for the new x64 version of MorphOS is a big concern for all users, and the Dev. Team as well, is it reasonable to ask the Dev. Team if it would be possible to create one or more of the following things, which would help solve the lack of native software problem?

    1. if possible, create a "Trance" like translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run all, or most Linux x64 software, without any alteration.


    But running Linux software on another Linux system isn't even a guarantee. Kernel versions, distros, and CPU can all make binaries fail to run with the dreaded segfault, and remains a thorn in the side of Linux gaming even today.

    The guaranteed way around this is to compile software for your own machine. (Or to download from a repo binaries that have already been compiled for your CPU and kernel.)

    MorphOS and AmigaOS already have things like Ixemul and ixnet to recompile Linux software this way, which are...

    Quote:

    2. if #1 is not feasible, or desirable, create development tools that make porting x64 Linux software to the new MorphOS for x64 easy and quick.


    ...limited by available infrastructure, such as libraries; Amiga-like operating systems also lack in several basic but very important functions, SIGSTOP and fork() being infamous examples.
  • »27.11.17 - 00:26
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1805 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    amigadave schrieb:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> SMP support [...] isn't supposed to happen until the X64 transition

    > please explain the dependency.

    geit explained it 4½ years ago:
    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9204&forum=11&start=14


    Good explanation by geit.

    Since lack of software for the new x64 version of MorphOS is a big concern for all users, and the Dev. Team as well, is it reasonable to ask the Dev. Team if it would be possible to create one or more of the following things, which would help solve the lack of native software problem?

    1. if possible, create a "Trance" like translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run all, or most Linux x64 software, without any alteration.

    2. if #1 is not feasible, or desirable, create development tools that make porting x64 Linux software to the new MorphOS for x64 easy and quick.

    3. if neither #1, or #2 are feasible, or desirable, create MorphOS for x64 so that it can be run hosted, hiding the underlying Linux, or Windows host OS, but allowing host OS software to be run transparently from the Ambient desktop of MorphOS for x64, similar to how AEROS, AmiKit emulation and/or the A.L.I.C.E. laptop work, with the "Rabbit Hole".

    Which ever direction the MorphOS Dev. Team decides to go, I hope that they will collaborate with many third party programmers during the creation of MorphOS for x64, so that we will have dozens of quality software applications and a few games, which are ready to run on the new MorphOS for x64, at the time it is first released.

    Edit: (removed double negative)

    [ Edited by amigadave 26.11.2017 - 15:06 ]

    The Lack of Software is not that big issue as it may seem. Most important applications that Draw a lot of cpu Powerand hence, need to be run natively, are the browser, Video Player and other Media (high res Pics, pdfs), the usual programs for that Task are still supported and mostly done by Team members anyway. I have no doubt these will find their way quickly to MorphOS x64. Legacy 68k applications will run in uae. Sure, someone has to Port uae, but I don't think this will not come quickly as well. As a Bonus on x64 we will benefit from the highly optimized 68k jit. And nothing's going to stop us to include the ppc Emulation thee, too. Just like on winuae. And once MorphOS ppc is not the current dev branch, MorphOS Team could consider to provide a MorphOS Version for the uae ppc Emulator (and if they don't want to free it generally they may find a way to exclusively bind it to MorphOS x64-uae). Emulation is not the best of all Options but very handy to fill the void i the aftermath fro. The Isa Switch. X64 has the Raw Power to do Emulation conveniently enough.

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 27.11.2017 - 11:18 ]
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »27.11.17 - 10:11
    Profile Visit Website
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    polluks
    Posts: 311 from 2007/10/23
    From: Gelsenkirchen,...
    Maybe there's enough manpower for the ISA and 64 bit changes.
    But there's already not enough manpower for a dual monitor driver for PB.
    Sorry, I cannot believe these promises.
    Pegasos II G4: MorphOS 3.9, Zalman M220W
    Power Mac G3: OSX 10.3 · PowerBook 5,8: OSX 10.5, MorphOS 3.9
  • »27.11.17 - 14:34
    Profile
  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 1497 from 2003/3/5
    From: Canada
    Quote:

    polluks wrote:
    Maybe there's enough manpower for the ISA and 64 bit changes.
    But there's already not enough manpower for a dual monitor driver for PB.
    Sorry, I cannot believe these promises.


    Don't call speculations of users "promises".
  • »27.11.17 - 16:02
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4305 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    jacadcaps wrote:
    Quote:

    polluks wrote:
    Maybe there's enough manpower for the ISA and 64 bit changes.
    But there's already not enough manpower for a dual monitor driver for PB.
    Sorry, I cannot believe these promises.


    Don't call speculations of users "promises".


    After reading that, I was going to make a similar comment, but you beat me to it.
    I don't expect the first X64 releases to contain all these advanced features that everyone keeps mentioning.

    Initially I'd expect the ISA change to just jetison the legacy limitations like 31 bitmemory addressing.

    Like all previous versions, we can probably anticipate gradual evolution, not abrupt change.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.11.17 - 17:01
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2469 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    I don't expect the first X64 releases to contain all these advanced features that everyone keeps mentioning.

    Initially I'd expect the ISA change to just jetison the legacy limitations like 31 bitmemory addressing.

    Like all previous versions, we can probably anticipate gradual evolution, not abrupt change.


    You might be right, given the very limited programming resources (free time and number of developers on the team), the first public release of MorphOS for x64, might only have a couple advanced features, and almost zero software to run, if the Dev. Team does not provide beta versions to interested third party programmers, so they can port their software to the new architecture, API, ABI, and OS.

    Personally, I think that approach would be a mistake, and lessen the chances for MorphOS for x64 to become as successful, or more successful, as the current PPC version of MorphOS. I believe geit's post mentioned that the switch to x64 hardware would further fracture the community. I believe that if the switch is not done right, the move could possibly be the beginning of the end, instead of a chance to get things right, and gain thousands of new users, possibly even moving MorphOS into the "mainstream", to compete head to head with Linux distro's.

    Granted, the chances that MorphOS for x64 will be that huge of a success are very small, and perhaps the Dev. Team does not even want that much growth and success, I don't know. I do believe that there is a void in the desktop and conventional laptop computing world, that could possibly be filled with something new (like MorphOS for x64), if that something new were created the right way, to solve all, or most of the current short comings found in all Linux and Unix distro's.

    I doubt that the MorphOS Dev. Team is ambitious enough to attempt to create a new OS that surpasses all current Linux and Unix distro's, but they might get lucky and do things right without even knowing all the advantages built into what they have created, until many months, or even years after it is first released, if they will only strive for perfection during the creation process, and not settle for too many compromises.

    Regarding WINE, I think it would be something desirable to have eventually, but running Windows software on MorphOS for x64 should not be a concern of the MorphOS Dev. Team, during the creation process. In my mind, I foresee MorphOS for x64 to be more like an improved Linux or Unix distro, and not a copy of Windows or MacOSX. I'm hoping for something more than a port of our existing MorphOS for PPC, with only the elimination of the design decisions which held it back, to make it compatible with the Amiga 68k API and software library.

    Perhaps the Dev. Team should ask the MorphOS community for feedback, on what new features are most important to the community, before going too far down a path that does not satisfy most of the user base?

    I doubt they will ask for such feedback though, and I also doubt that they will announce a feature list of what will be included in MorphOS for x64, before it is ready to be released, or at least until before it is ready to show beta versions of it at some computer shows in the future.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »27.11.17 - 19:10
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1682 from 2003/2/24
    I‘d expect a 1st public x64 MorphOS to be pretty much feature complete.

    Cos before that we will atleast 1 year of beta stage.

    And before that atleast another year when core developers will show it on user meetings.

    But offcourse there will be a period even before that when the foundations are layed in secret.

    We can only hope that this period has allready started.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »27.11.17 - 19:28
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2469 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    The Lack of Software is not that big issue as it may seem. Most important applications that Draw a lot of cpu Powerand hence, need to be run natively, are the browser, Video Player and other Media (high res Pics, pdfs), the usual programs for that Task are still supported and mostly done by Team members anyway. I have no doubt these will find their way quickly to MorphOS x64. Legacy 68k applications will run in uae. Sure, someone has to Port uae, but I don't think this will not come quickly as well. As a Bonus on x64 we will benefit from the highly optimized 68k jit. And nothing's going to stop us to include the ppc Emulation thee, too. Just like on winuae. And once MorphOS ppc is not the current dev branch, MorphOS Team could consider to provide a MorphOS Version for the uae ppc Emulator (and if they don't want to free it generally they may find a way to exclusively bind it to MorphOS x64-uae). Emulation is not the best of all Options but very handy to fill the void i the aftermath fro. The Isa Switch. X64 has the Raw Power to do Emulation conveniently enough.

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 27.11.2017 - 11:18 ]


    You might be right, because I'm sure you use our current MorphOS3.9 on PPC for daily computing tasks, more often than I do, but I disagree with you on this topic. I don't think that being able to run old Amiga 68k software/games, or MorphOS PPC software/games faster, on the new MorphOS for x64, is as important as having better and newer software, written for, or ported to, the new OS. I don't think there are many existing MorphOS users who are dissatisfied with the speed and power we currently have available to us with a 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac, and most users are probably satisfied with 1.5GHz or faster G4 systems.

    I believe it is the limited amount of features and compatibility, and the small size of our compatible, modern, PPC drivers and software library (such as lack of a modern word processor/office suite, only being able to print Postscript converted pages, not having a fully featured and "up to date" web browser, not having the ability to stream audio or video content, USB3 & eSATA drivers, etc.), not the lack of CPU speed and power, that most MorphOS users want, or need.

    Of course, more speed and power are always beneficial and desirable, as they allow some demanding software to run faster/better, but MorphOS users currently have very little software which would benefit from more speed and power. Making MorphOS for x64 SMP capable and able to use multiple threads, while also providing memory protection, and continuing to improve 2D & 3D video card drivers, should give us all the power and speed we will need for many years to come.

    The work that is currently being done on AmigaOS4.1FE video card drivers, funded by A-Eon, is very interesting, as a way to increase available memory footprint, by allowing the VRAM to be leveraged differently than has previously been used in Amiga-Like NG systems. Perhaps doing something similar with new video card drivers for MorphOS, could improve our web browsing experience, by lessening, or eliminating, low memory situations that can sometimes happen while web browsing, with multiple tabs open, on certain websites.

    I admit that I am hoping that MorphOS for x64 is much more than a simple port of our existing MorphOS, with the removal of the limitations which were required to keep backward compatibility with Amiga 68k software. I see the switch from PPC to x64 and the step away from keeping compatibility with old Amiga software, as a huge opportunity to create something new and special. The MorphOS Dev. Team might not share my ambitious vision for the future of MorphOS for x64, as something that could be created on a clean slate, better than all OSes which have come before it.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »27.11.17 - 20:13
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1682 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    [
    The work that is currently being done on AmigaOS4.1FE video card drivers, funded by A-Eon, is very interesting, as a way to increase available memory footprint, by allowing the VRAM to be leveraged differently than has previously been used in Amiga-Like NG systems. Perhaps doing something similar with new video card drivers for MorphOS, could improve our web browsing experience, by lessening, or eliminating, low memory situations that can sometimes happen while web browsing, with multiple tabs open, on certain websites.



    To what point?

    a) put that extra RAM into the 31bit space
    -> pointless as most MorphOS-systems already fill that with actual RAM

    b) make it accessible as special RAM above 31(32)bit
    -> pointless for the topend desktops (G5 and X5000) as they can easily take several GB of RAM.
    -> totally pointless for lower desktop options (G4) as the HW is pretty much 32 bit itself.
    Would make very limited sense on PBs and MacMini as they only have 128(64)MB VRAM compared to 2(1)GB of RAM.
    Might be neat for those still running an EFIKA with a relative "big" GFX card.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »27.11.17 - 20:42
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9350 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> a "Trance" like translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run [...]
    >>> Linux x64 software

    >> This wouldn‘t be like Trance at all, but like WINE. Trance translates the ISA
    >> and retains the API, while a layer that allows MorphOS to run Linux software
    >> would translate the API and retain the ISA.

    > Regarding WINE, I think [...] running Windows software on MorphOS for x64 should
    > not be a concern of the MorphOS Dev. Team, during the creation process.

    I wasn‘t suggesting using WINE to run Windows software on MorphOS/x64 (which wouldn‘t work anyway as WINE translates to Linux/Unix API specifically), but that your suggestion of a „translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run [...] Linux x64 software“ would require something *like* WINE (as opposed to something like Trance).
  • »27.11.17 - 21:18
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 164 from 2011/11/16
    Quote:

    amigadave schrieb:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    I don't expect the first X64 releases to contain all these advanced features that everyone keeps mentioning.

    Initially I'd expect the ISA change to just jetison the legacy limitations like 31 bitmemory addressing.

    Like all previous versions, we can probably anticipate gradual evolution, not abrupt change.


    You might be right, given the very limited programming resources (free time and number of developers on the team), the first public release of MorphOS for x64, might only have a couple advanced features, and almost zero software to run, if the Dev. Team does not provide beta versions to interested third party programmers, so they can port their software to the new architecture, API, ABI, and OS.

    Personally, I think that approach would be a mistake, and lessen the chances for MorphOS for x64 to become as successful, or more successful, as the current PPC version of MorphOS. I believe geit's post mentioned that the switch to x64 hardware would further fracture the community. I believe that if the switch is not done right, the move could possibly be the beginning of the end, instead of a chance to get things right, and gain thousands of new users, possibly even moving MorphOS into the "mainstream", to compete head to head with Linux distro's.

    Granted, the chances that MorphOS for x64 will be that huge of a success are very small, and perhaps the Dev. Team does not even want that much growth and success, I don't know. I do believe that there is a void in the desktop and conventional laptop computing world, that could possibly be filled with something new (like MorphOS for x64), if that something new were created the right way, to solve all, or most of the current short comings found in all Linux and Unix distro's.

    I doubt that the MorphOS Dev. Team is ambitious enough to attempt to create a new OS that surpasses all current Linux and Unix distro's, but they might get lucky and do things right without even knowing all the advantages built into what they have created, until many months, or even years after it is first released, if they will only strive for perfection during the creation process, and not settle for too many compromises.

    Regarding WINE, I think it would be something desirable to have eventually, but running Windows software on MorphOS for x64 should not be a concern of the MorphOS Dev. Team, during the creation process. In my mind, I foresee MorphOS for x64 to be more like an improved Linux or Unix distro, and not a copy of Windows or MacOSX. I'm hoping for something more than a port of our existing MorphOS for PPC, with only the elimination of the design decisions which held it back, to make it compatible with the Amiga 68k API and software library.

    Perhaps the Dev. Team should ask the MorphOS community for feedback, on what new features are most important to the community, before going too far down a path that does not satisfy most of the user base?

    I doubt they will ask for such feedback though, and I also doubt that they will announce a feature list of what will be included in MorphOS for x64, before it is ready to be released, or at least until before it is ready to show beta versions of it at some computer shows in the future.


    I read "mainstream" somewhere... sorry to be negative but name just one reason why a external (new) developer should invest time in supporting morphos? Anyway in game development most indy devs use ready-to-be-used engines and special development software that is mostly commercial or open source but then only supporting linux, Mac and Win and of course Smartphones (iPhone and/or Android). To port that and remove dependencies is a huge effort. Commercial development is done mostly using modern tools and frameworks. If you look at free pascal port done by Alb and how long he needed to get somewhere you can imagine how much work would be needed. In short, perhaps it helps to gain some users as long people do not need to buy dedicated hardware for it but it will hardly become mainstream again or at least really add thousands of users. Expecially if you take into consideration that MorphOS software has to be recompiled (and propably adapted to 64bit) and 68k software runs in emulation (what many users used against Aros in recent years). Also not all software is available in sources, not every dev (if still active) is interested in X64 propably and software activity in recent years was very limited on morphos so I assume only very limited number of applications available at start, propably only from MorphOS team with almost no 3rd party software.


    [ Editiert durch OlafSch 28.11.2017 - 08:43 ]
  • »28.11.17 - 08:39
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 164 from 2011/11/16
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf schrieb:
    >>> a "Trance" like translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run [...] Linux x64 software

    >> This wouldn‘t be like Trance at all, but like WINE. Trance translates the ISA and retains the API,
    >> while a layer that allows MorphOS to run Linux software would translate the API and retain the ISA.

    > Regarding WINE, I think [...] running Windows software on MorphOS for x64 should not be a
    > concern of the MorphOS Dev. Team, during the creation process.

    I wasn‘t suggesting using WINE to run Windows software on MorphOS/x64 (which wouldn‘t work anyway as WINE translates to Linux/Unix API specifically), but that your suggestion of a „translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run [...] Linux x64 software“ would require something *like* WINE (as opposed to something like Trance).


    WINE is huge package, as I read the discussions in past porting it would more or less mean rewriting it. Unrealistic.
  • »28.11.17 - 08:42
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9350 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I wasn‘t suggesting using WINE to run Windows software on MorphOS/x64 (which
    > wouldn‘t work anyway as WINE translates to Linux/Unix API specifically), but that
    > your suggestion of a „translation layer, which allows MorphOS for x64 to run [...]
    > Linux x64 software“
    would require something *like* WINE (as opposed to something
    > like Trance).

    > WINE is huge package, [...] porting it would more or less mean rewriting it.
    > Unrealistic.

    Have you even read what you quoted and replied to? I wasn't suggesting porting WINE, and I wrote why it cannot be ported to anything non-Linux or non-Unix.
  • »28.11.17 - 08:55
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 164 from 2011/11/16
    @Andreas

    I wrote it as confirmation not in opposition to you
  • »28.11.17 - 09:09
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9350 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I wrote it as confirmation not in opposition to you

    You didn't confirm anything I wrote because I simply didn't write what you seem to think I wrote. Again for anybody with reading comprehension difficulties: I did not write about using WINE on or porting WINE to a future MorphOS/x64. I was merely mentioning WINE as an example to illustrate what type of software would be needed to run Linux/x64 software on a future MorphOS/x64.
  • »28.11.17 - 09:35
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2469 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I wrote it as confirmation not in opposition to you

    You didn't confirm anything I wrote because I simply didn't write what you seem to think I wrote. Again for anybody with reading comprehension difficulties: I did not write about using WINE on or porting WINE to a future MorphOS/x64. I was merely mentioning WINE as an example to illustrate what type of software would be needed to run Linux/x64 software on a future MorphOS/x64.


    I half way understood what you meant, but the part I misunderstood was that you meant it for x64 Linux software compatibility, and not Windows software compatibility.

    I am probably way off base in thinking that a port of MorphOS to x64 will be more like a complete re-write, since the Dev. Team will be ditching all compatibility with the Amiga API (or ABI, I don't know which term is more correct). I see this as an opportunity to create something brand new, which only takes the best parts of our existing MorphOS for PPC, and removes all the bad stuff (as much as possible) from all previous OS ideas of the past and present.

    I mean if they are going to go through all the effort to create something basically brand new, with only bits and pieces from their older existing work, why not go "all out", and make MorphOS for x64 the greatest OS ever created. Something that everyone will want to use in the future. Something that is designed to make so much more sense than any existing Linux/Unix distro, MorphOS for x64 will attract many Linux developers to at least take a look at it, and as it grows, and gains enough new users, then we will see more new software written for, or ported to, MorphOS for x64.

    Surely there must be several things about all existing Linux/Unix distros, as well as Windows and MacOSX, that drive developers crazy, or at the least are a huge disappointment. If the MorphOS Dev. Team can create something new that removes as many of those "disappointments", and/or includes new features that make developing for MorphOS for x64 more desirable than all other alternatives, we will see an increase in users and programmers joining our tiny community. Of course it will take a lot of time and work, but stranger things have happened, so I'm not ruling out any possibilities for the future, until I see what the very talented guys on the MorphOS Dev. Team come up with.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »29.11.17 - 03:15
    Profile