Cloanto sues Hyperion
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2704 from 2003/2/24
    @amigadave

    cLOanto

    ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »17.03.19 - 18:56
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    So Trevor bought ExecSG? Does this mean The Wonder Twins have officially left the building?

    What a shitshow on that side of the fence. I can't feel bad for OS4 users though. They should have known what they were getting in bed with before they dropped $3k+.
  • »17.03.19 - 20:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > who is the member there that is making those statements about
    > Trevor, A-Eon, Colanto and ExecSG, quoted above? Do we know
    > who the real person is, that posted those comments?

    He has posted anonymously, which is possible to do on amiga-news.de.
  • »17.03.19 - 20:27
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 787 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    I am a little surprised, and greatly relieved that the Frieden Bros didn't get screwed by a BH created contract that could have taken their ExecSG from them. They made a huge mistake ever working for Hyperion in the first place, but at least they didn't compound their first mistake with a second mistake, and they were able to retain ownership of their work.


    There was a rumour that the Friedens took Hyperion to court for ownership of ExecSG. Whether this is true I don't know, whether it actually was settled before it hit the courts is unknown as well. As is the general timeline of when it would have happened - no court documents ever appeared. Also the rumour that Hyperion were licensing ExecSG are unconfirmed. It's one of those "well known" things that nobody seems to know how it's well known, but nobody is denying either.

    I wouldn't be particularly surprised if true, as the Friedens have always been unwilling to part with their code, even if based on GPL. But regardless, they seem to have escaped a trap that (almost) every other OS4 developer has fallen into.
  • »17.03.19 - 20:32
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 456 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    I am a little surprised, and greatly relieved that the Frieden Bros didn't get screwed by a BH created contract that could have taken their ExecSG from them. They made a huge mistake ever working for Hyperion in the first place, but at least they didn't compound their first mistake with a second mistake, and they were able to retain ownership of their work.


    There was a rumour that the Friedens took Hyperion to court for ownership of ExecSG. Whether this is true I don't know, whether it actually was settled before it hit the courts is unknown as well. As is the general timeline of when it would have happened - no court documents ever appeared. Also the rumour that Hyperion were licensing ExecSG are unconfirmed. It's one of those "well known" things that nobody seems to know how it's well known, but nobody is denying either.

    I wouldn't be particularly surprised if true, as the Friedens have always been unwilling to part with their code, even if based on GPL. But regardless, they seem to have escaped a trap that (almost) every other OS4 developer has fallen into.


    This?
    Source

    You might be thinking about the euro case filed against both Hyperion VOF and Amiga Inc. here.
    It was later stated that there was no animosity between the Friedens/Vallinotto and Hyperion.
    It was always described as a means to protect their IP from Amiga Inc.
    *shrug*

    #6
  • »17.03.19 - 21:12
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11478 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > There was a rumour that the Friedens took Hyperion to court for
    > ownership of ExecSG.

    This "rumour" is fairly well documented (see comment #73). And it wasn't just Hyperion on the defendant side.

    > whether it actually was settled before it hit the courts is unknown
    > as well. As is the general timeline of when it would have happened -
    > no court documents ever appeared.

    A settlement wouldn't really have made sense as it was a negative declaratory action started in May 2007. The alleged outcome (somewhen after July 2008, as the case was reported as pending (p. 4) then) was that ExecSG was confirmed being the property of the Friedens (as well as some other software the property of Vallinotto) so that Amiga Inc. couldn't get it from Hyperion even if another court should later decide that Hyperion was to hand over IP to Amiga Inc.

    From the December 2007 court documents (p. 27 to 34, exhibiting the May 2007 declaratory action):
    "[Hyperion] concluded an agreement under Belgian law with Messrs Thomas Frieden and Hans-Joerg Frieden [...] on 3 January 2002, called "Software development & license agreement". In [...] this agreement [...], the [Friedens] explicitly reserved to themselves all intellectual property rights on the developed software with the exception of the restricted license granted [...] to [Hyperion]. The software developed by the [Friedens] ("ExecSG") is described in Annex 1 of the agreement [...] between [Hyperion] and the [Friedens]."

    > the rumour that Hyperion were licensing ExecSG are unconfirmed.

    How should Hyperion have been able to sell OS4 containing ExecSG without obtaining a license to ExecSG from the Friedens? The January 2002 "Software development & license agreement" between Hyperion and the Friedens regarding ExecSG is contained in full in the May 2007 court documents (p. 5 to 16).

    > the Friedens have always been unwilling to part with their code

    According to the January 2002 "Software development & license agreement", Hyperion only has an object code license (as opposed to a source code license).
  • »17.03.19 - 21:13
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1097 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    I am a little surprised, and greatly relieved that the Frieden Bros didn't get screwed by a BH created contract that could have taken their ExecSG from them. They made a huge mistake ever working for Hyperion in the first place, but at least they didn't compound their first mistake with a second mistake, and they were able to retain ownership of their work.


    There was a rumour that the Friedens took Hyperion to court for ownership of ExecSG. Whether this is true I don't know, whether it actually was settled before it hit the courts is unknown as well. As is the general timeline of when it would have happened - no court documents ever appeared. Also the rumour that Hyperion were licensing ExecSG are unconfirmed. It's one of those "well known" things that nobody seems to know how it's well known, but nobody is denying either.

    I wouldn't be particularly surprised if true, as the Friedens have always been unwilling to part with their code, even if based on GPL. But regardless, they seem to have escaped a trap that (almost) every other OS4 developer has fallen into.


    This?
    Source

    You might be thinking about the euro case filed against both Hyperion VOF and Amiga Inc. here.
    It was later stated that there was no animosity between the Friedens/Vallinotto and Hyperion.
    It was always described as a means to protect their IP from Amiga Inc.
    *shrug*

    #6


    The ExecSG source is in the Hyperion svn repo.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

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  • »17.03.19 - 23:24
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 456 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:

    It might make me more unpopular to be objective, but...

    Purported email content text overlayed on a podcast from a 3rd party admittedly new to this amiga stuff..
    Not to mention I never saw/heard anyone say he had permission to post Mike's mails, although some would assume so.
    And 3rd parties making "announcements" for principals?
    A-eon purchaser - Hyperion seller. I also would have preferred a statement from one or both of the actual parties involved, as in a joint press release. ha! Nevertheless, the issue is moot now.

    Sorry, but this way of issuing "emails" seemed a bit too much of a counter to the Jens and his "these weren't meant for..." affair.

    #6


    Additionally, now a claimed self imposed deadline has clearly been missed.

    Quote:

    Mike also said that there will be some announcements quite soon, as in days

    *cough*
    Although Amiga time never has any relation to real time, we've exceeded "in days" now.

    I believe this is related to the boatload of documents filed recently concerning the lawsuit.
    Recently, Pacer shortened the list shown, but prior there were many new filings of motions and responses.
    If I understand this correctly, there might be a tie as to why the "announcements" have yet to be seen.

    In order for the case to proceed and C-A Acquisition Corporation to also gain a court ruling on the preliminary injunction against Hyperion...they must first be enjoined in the current lawsuit or...
    file their own.
    Unless I'm wrong, the current activity is another stalling tactic to attempt to prevent C-A from enjoining in the lawsuit, thereby delaying plans.

    #6
  • »18.03.19 - 12:58
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 787 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    So I take it then that the retro community reboot is dead and buried? What with all the litigation, and Jens about to leave and stop making hardware.

    Just another entry in Ben Hermans' long list of crimes against the Amiga platform. Someone (kolla?) joked that he had a painting of Mehdi Ali above his bed, but I think he's done far, far more damage. Ali was just a breaker, set up to try to put Commodore's costs back into the green no matter what. Ben has cynically used everyone in the community, set friend against friend, and made sure that bitterness and debt are the only things that increase with the years.
  • »18.03.19 - 13:29
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    So I take it then that the retro community reboot is dead and buried? What with all the litigation, and Jens about to leave and stop making hardware.

    Just another entry in Ben Hermans' long list of crimes against the Amiga platform. Someone (kolla?) joked that he had a painting of Mehdi Ali above his bed, but I think he's done far, far more damage. Ali was just a breaker, set up to try to put Commodore's costs back into the green no matter what. Ben has cynically used everyone in the community, set friend against friend, and made sure that bitterness and debt are the only things that increase with the years.


    Speaking as a C= 8bit fan first and foremost, the hope is Jens only leaves the Amiga market and not the 8bit market. It seems to be his primary bread and butter in recent years anyhow.
  • »18.03.19 - 16:19
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  • rob
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 134 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    So I take it then that the retro community reboot is dead and buried? What with all the litigation, and Jens about to leave and stop making hardware.

    Just another entry in Ben Hermans' long list of crimes against the Amiga platform. Someone (kolla?) joked that he had a painting of Mehdi Ali above his bed, but I think he's done far, far more damage. Ali was just a breaker, set up to try to put Commodore's costs back into the green no matter what. Ben has cynically used everyone in the community, set friend against friend, and made sure that bitterness and debt are the only things that increase with the years.


    It's worth bearing in mind that Hermans wouldn't have been able to rise to prominence in the Amiga market if Ali hadn't run Commodore into the ground.
  • »20.03.19 - 19:17
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 787 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    It's worth bearing in mind that Hermans wouldn't have been able to rise to prominence in the Amiga market if Ali hadn't run Commodore into the ground.


    Ali came very late in Commodore's downward spiral, which began in 1984 with the Plus/4 and the C128. Post-Tramiel Commodore were a dysfunctional mess which would have sunk long before if not for the very long-term success of the C64 and the briefer success of the Amiga. By the 90s, the execs were all in it basically to see how much cocaine and hookers they could score with company funds before the debts caught up with them.

    That's an exaggeration. But not much.

    Besides which, Ben never really "rose to prominence". He had a stab at licensing ports of some flopped Windows games to Amiga, Linux and Mac, which failed. Then he had a stab at making an AmigaOS successor and massively underestimated the task. Then he foolishly tried to stand up against Amiga Inc massively outwitting him, and has spend every moment since playing people like chess pieces in the absolutely most cynical manner to try to clear his debts. If he ever does, the mess he leaves to do so will make Ali look surgical.
  • »20.03.19 - 22:13
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 456 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    The ExecSG source is in the Hyperion svn repo.



    In that were the case, particularly given the state of that company, can you explain why they would need another one?

    They're not rumours...

    #6
  • »20.03.19 - 23:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:

    Ali came very late in Commodore's downward spiral, which began in 1984 with the Plus/4 and the C128.


    Not my fight except one thing that bugs me here in your statement. The C128 sold 5.7 million worldwide. I'd hardly lump that in "downward spiral".
  • »21.03.19 - 00:22
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2704 from 2003/2/24
    @number6

    Maybe they simply don’t have the rights to actually use it no more? Having source gode is one thing, having copyright is a different matter. Take the leaked 3.1 sources for example, many people have it on their HDD’s and it is also in the OS4 svn repo, but Cloanto (or perhaps the C-A Acquisition Corporation) is the only one who can legally use it. Additional work by Olaf Barthels etc is copyrighted by him, but since that builds on Cloanto owned property, those parts are Shared Copyrights that would need agreement from all the involved copyright owners (Cloanto and Olaf both).
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »21.03.19 - 07:47
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2047 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:

    Ali came very late in Commodore's downward spiral, which began in 1984 with the Plus/4 and the C128.


    Not my fight except one thing that bugs me here in your statement. The C128 sold 5.7 million worldwide. I'd hardly lump that in "downward spiral".


    The 128 was an overengineerd brainfart that only sold by accident.

    If C= had wanted a real 64 successor it should have been something like the C65 or the C900.

    Both offcourse turned obsolete once they bought the Amiga.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »21.03.19 - 13:34
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:

    The 128 was an overengineerd brainfart that only sold by accident.

    If C= had wanted a real 64 successor it should have been something like the C65 or the C900.

    Both offcourse turned obsolete once they bought the Amiga.


    People like to poop on the 128, including Bill Herd himself at times, but "only sold by accident" is wrong. To this day the 128 has a following. I personally upgraded from a 64 to a 128 in 1986. I knew exactly what I was getting and I was not disappointed. The 128 was not directly competing against the Amiga 1000. They were entirely different price points. My friend bought one of the first A1000s off the line, it cost him nearly $3,000. I didn't have anywhere near that kind of money. My 128 cost me something like 1/10th of that.
  • »21.03.19 - 15:18
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    Kronos
    Posts: 2047 from 2003/2/24
    It's not the question wether the 128 sold, but wether it made sense as a project.

    1st hint is the Z80 which made it complicated/expensive to build, all for running C/PM an OS already on it's dead bed by that time. The 128mode might have made sense if it had come in updated C64 chips (maybe it did no expert on the 128).

    What it should have been.

    C64CR as super-cheap base and an 128 that just offered bit more while costing only extra pennies, just like A500 vs A500+.

    So yes, add "HighRes" (aka 80 col), yes add a bit more RAM, yes add the floppy (that everyone had to have anyways) and maybe add some MHz.

    If that didn't work, start developing the A1000CR 2 years earlier (aka A500).
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »21.03.19 - 16:28
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    asrael22
    Posts: 404 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    The 128 was an overengineerd brainfart that only sold by accident.


    I don't actually think so.
    At that time 8 bit were still heavily used.
    The 128 had 80 column screen and a lot of additional goodies.
    Also the Apple II was still being sold.

    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    If C= had wanted a real 64 successor it should have been something like the C65 or the C900.



    The C900 was an entirely different attempt to follow the Unix track.
    The C900 as well as the Amiga 2000 UX was no success at all.


    Manfred

    [ Edited by asrael22 21.03.2019 - 18:18 ]
  • »21.03.19 - 17:18
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