Genesi... How about making new G4 cpu cards for PegasosII?
  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4967 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    MarK wrote:
    as the pegasos2 is open... where is the cpu card schematics?

    bye, MarK.


    THAT is a question I've made on these forums repeatedly.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.02.09 - 15:53
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  • Caterpillar
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    Matt_H
    Posts: 30 from 2009/2/21
    From: Boston, MA, Un...
    @ Andreas_Wolf

    Gosh, am I delusional? I distinctly remember a formal announcement asking users to write in to Genesi if they were interested in a 7448 or 7447A card - can't recall which - that would definitely have been produced if a certain threshold was met (the threshold was not met). I can't seem to find any info on it now, either. Maybe my brain is playing tricks on me.

    Neko, can you vindicate my brain? Timeframe would have been late-2006/early-2007.

    A completely different route that might benefit we end users is if Genesi were to buy back the 1.4GHz and faster modules they produced for corporate customers when those corporations decide to retire them (assuming the retirement is due to "We need something newer" rather than "It's fried". Resold to people like us, there's (hopefully) a chance for profit, lower cost to end-users, and minimal financial risk. I wouldn't mind having a second-hand CPU, provided it's been thoroughly tested.
  • »24.02.09 - 19:59
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2714 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Jim wrote:
    Interesting video! G3 thru G5 processors and dual processors? I didn't know the Pegasos design supported the last two options.


    It doesn't. I don't know whether or not it's technically possible to put 2 CPU's to the Marvell Discovery 2 at all, but I think there are some bottlenecks in that controller that becomes more apparent at higher CPU speeds, and dual CPU's would probably *not* make sense even if it would be possible to do so. That's why Genesi turned to Tundra for its dual CPU design, using the Tundra Tsi109TM northbridge. The original idea was to use dual 7448's, but that changed when the 7448 didn't live up to the promised specs in practice, so the whole 7448 dream was scrapped in favor of 7447/7447A (as was it for the Pegasos).

    Their G5 efforts came in the shape of "Tetra Power", and hadn't the project been shelved it would have turned out quite similar to the Power Station.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »25.02.09 - 08:48
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2714 from 2003/2/24
    Neko, will the motherboards ability do deal with newer CPU models depend on what board revision number it has? Obviously it matters for memory modules, but for instance can a rev 2B1 motherboard (my first Peg2) handle a 7447A @ 1.4GHz as good as a 2B5 revision?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »25.02.09 - 09:04
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11715 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > It doesn't.

    Because?

    > I don't know whether or not it's technically possible to
    > put 2 CPU's to the Marvell Discovery 2 at all

    You just said it's not. Right answer is already given here.
  • »25.02.09 - 13:17
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2714 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > It doesn't.

    Because?


    Because the G5 is a completely different architecture altogether, with a different set of system controllers, etc; you can't just clutch a G5 onto the current system controller of the Pegasos. And the Marvell Discovery II in the Pegasos 2 has limitations when it comes to FSB speed that would take away most of the fun even when using a *single* CPU at higher speeds, like a 7448 which is supposed to go up to 200MHz FSB. You would pay the full high price as all the other 7448 buyers, but you would only get *a part* of the possible maximum performance for your money. And add a second 7448 to it, and sit back watching how your two CPU's take turns in sitting on their ass waiting for data to transfer through the bus, memory controller, etc. So even if you would manage to actually get two CPU's working with the Marvell in the Pegasos2 (which I doubt is possible), and even if you manage to solve the heating problems of two high frequency 7448's in such a narrow space, etc, etc, it simply wouldn't be worth it. So no G5 and no dual CPU's in the Pegasos2.

    Quote:

    > I don't know whether or not it's technically possible to
    > put 2 CPU's to the Marvell Discovery 2 at all

    You just said it's not.


    Correct, there was a reason to why Genesi went for the Tundra for their dual CPU design. And there was a reason to why they had to wait for the TSI108 that was supposed to be capable of dual CPU, and then a second revision of the TSI108 that was supposed to be capable of dual CPU, and then the TSI109 that *finally did* become capable of dual CPU's.

    Looking at specs in marketing materials is one thing, but the reality is often something else.

    Quote:

    Right answer is already given here.


    Thanks for pointing to the web archive site, it gave me the chance of having a look at this old picture again. What you see in that picture is the ancestor to the Pegasos 1 over at b-plan, it is an ArticiaS development board with dual CPU sockets. But again, promises in marketing materials does not always correspond to what's delivered in reality, as the ArticiaS later showed in several ways; the AGP 2x was merely an AGP 0.5x, the memory bandwidth was piss poor, the DMA coherency was broken, etc, etc, and it had a general unpredictable behavior that made it impossible to use. SMP? Yeah, right. But again, "support" and "specifications" in marketing materials doesn't by any means guarantee support and delivered specs in real life, as there has been many examples of (and I think the 7448 turned out to be another example of that BTW)...

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma on 2009/2/25 23:29 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »25.02.09 - 21:22
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    MorphDelf
    Posts: 274 from 2004/2/20
    From: Oslo, Norway
    I find it funny that bbrv suddendly acts as if he is a Amiga friend by posting hundreads of answers on amigaworld.net, then suddendly just vanish from the scene.

    Amiga people and MorphOS have all had a dream that someone came and took them serious and started to work with the community instead of against it.

    If bbrv wants to show the hero which he claims to be, then there should be actions. bbrv talks about that community is important, but he doesnt really listen to its users. I am creating Amitopia TV. I might not have millions of viewers, but there are users of those 400 that watches my show that sends me e-mails and asks about Amiga and MorphOS situation.

    I wish that I could reply to them that bbrv have got PegasosIII out or the promised G4 cards or anything. But I just feel emptyness. So if VisCorp became a reality or if Genesi got the Amiga rights we would see the same actions with no action?

    End-users usually look at Genesi as the MorphOS maintainer. MorphOS-Team is rather new. Why cant you bbrv makes relations in a better form? Now MorphOS 2.2 is out with tcp/ip stack, it got OWB and much much more. Why dont you help out and inform the world that MorphOS is here? Or is it that your to affraid to admit that you dont believe in Amiga or MorphOS anymore?

    Macmini version of MorphOS might be on its way soon, but the home for MorphOS is a PegasosIII alike motherboard. Its seeing Genesi or bPlan providing support for its users which would gladly help to promote you.

    Doesnt Genesi have any competition eyes to Acube etc? Cant you make a motherboard that beats sam440p or have bbrv started to listen to Nekos anti MorphOS propaganda? Ok. I know MorphOS isnt a massproduct, but just look at 95% of all Nekos posts. Theyre not really positive against MorphOS.

    An interesting poll would be.

    Which of these 2 people have helped Amigas reputation?
    1. Bill McEwen
    2. Bill Buck


    Anyway. Bill Buck should stand up and tell the truth here. And why havent you provided schematics of the CPU cards? There are so many questions here just not beeing answered... I hope that someday I can reply to my viewers with a smile when they ask about Genesi and its efforts.


    Sigh...
  • »25.02.09 - 22:28
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1349 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ MorphDelf

    Quote:

    Amiga people and MorphOS have all had a dream that someone came and took them serious and started to work with the community instead of against it.


    Why don't you check the recent donations to the MorphZone maintenance fund or the amount that was contributed to have AROS ported to the EFIKA. It has also been publically announced that Genesi *paid* for MorphOS to be ported to the EFIKA.

    Your accusation is without any merit whatsoever.


    Quote:

    End-users usually look at Genesi as the MorphOS maintainer. MorphOS-Team is rather new.


    The MorphOS developers have been around for far longer in the Amiga niche than Genesi and the people who directly work for this company.
  • »25.02.09 - 22:59
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11715 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > End-users usually look at Genesi as the MorphOS maintainer.
    > MorphOS-Team is rather new.

    Only if you call 4.5 years "rather new".

    https://morph.zone/modules/news/article.php?storyid=542
    http://www.morphos-news.de/index.php?lg=en&nid=809&si=1

    > is it that your to affraid to admit that you dont believe
    > in [...] MorphOS anymore?

    Genesi (Neko *and* BBRV) have been telling the past years that they don't consider MorphOS commercially viable any more. Payment for porting MorphOS to Efika happened more than 2 years ago.

    > Bill Buck should stand up and tell the truth here.

    Only because you didn't want to listen when he did doesn't mean he didn't.
  • »25.02.09 - 23:12
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11715 from 2003/5/22
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    > Because the G5 is a completely different architecture altogether, with a
    > different set of system controllers, etc; you can't just clutch a G5 onto the
    > current system controller of the Pegasos.

    Oh please, don't try to teach me on things *I* explained to others before in this very thread. To cite myself from there: "of course the Articia S does also not support the PPC970, nor does the Discovery II of the Pegasos II".
    In my question to your denial I refered to the "dual processors" part, not the "G5 processors" part.

    > the Marvell Discovery II in the Pegasos 2 has limitations when it
    > comes to FSB speed that would take away most of the fun even
    > when using a *single* CPU at higher speeds, like a 7448 which is
    > supposed to go up to 200MHz FSB. [...] And add a second 7448 to it,
    > and sit back watching how your two CPU's take turns in sitting on
    > their ass waiting for data to transfer through the bus, memory controller, etc.

    I never disputed that. I merely disputed your denial of the fact that "the Pegasos [II] design supported" "dual processors". This has zilch to do with things like speed or fun. And again, I already wrote about the Discovery II's FSB speed limitation myself.

    > even if you would manage to actually get two CPU's working
    > with the Marvell in the Pegasos2 (which I doubt is possible)

    I'll cite my statement I already pointed you to: " The Discovery II of the Pegasos II however explicitly supports SMP in both 60x and MPX modes".
    Marvell are with me on this: "The Marvell Discovery II MV6436x devices [...] support Symmetrical Multi-Processing (SMP) in both 60x and MPX modes".
    I hope you don't mind I'll stick with their truth rather than your's.

    And just FYI an example of a board with Discovery II and dual PPC750GX (1.0 GHz, 200 MHz bus):

    http://www.xes-inc.com/Products/XCalibur1000/XCalibur1000.html

    >> You just said it's not.

    > Correct, there was a reason to why Genesi went for the Tundra
    > for their dual CPU design.

    That reason was not that "it's not" "technically possible to put 2 CPU's to the Marvell Discovery 2" as you claim but rather that the Tundra chip might be better suited for this and/or be cheaper than a newer Marvell chip. That's a difference.

    > they had to wait for the TSI108 that was supposed to be
    > capable of dual CPU

    No, the Tsi108 (announced in March 2005) was never supposed to be dual CPU capable, the Tsi109 (renamed from Tsi108A) was. That's why Genesi waited for the Tsi108A/109 to be announced in June 2005 before announcing their HDB.

    > then a second revision of the TSI108 that was supposed to
    > be capable of dual CPU, and then the TSI109 that *finally did*
    > become capable of dual CPU's.

    That "second revision" would be the Tsi108A, later *just renamed* to Tsi109. And it definitely had been dual CPU capable right from the start when named Tsi108A, even if being restricted to 167 MHz FSB clock in dual CPU mode, which didn't magically change by renaming. You once knew these things 3 years ago (see link above).

    > Looking at specs in marketing materials is one thing, but
    > the reality is often something else.

    You're implying Marvell have been lying regarding the SMP capability of their Discovery II?

    >> Right answer is already given here.

    > having a look at this old picture again. What you see in that picture
    > is the ancestor to the Pegasos 1 over at b-plan, it is an ArticiaS development
    > board with dual CPU sockets.

    Yes, I well know this one with ZIF sockets and Sonnet CPU card. This is, in addition to the existing dual G4 card for Teron I already refered to before in this thread, a further indication that the Articia S *might* be dual CPU capable. But as mentioned before, I very much doubt it as well as you for reasons I already explained.

    > promises in marketing materials does not always correspond
    > to what's delivered in reality, as the ArticiaS later showed in
    > several ways; [...]

    No news to me, which you'd know if you had *read* my linked posting instead just glancing.

    > SMP? Yeah, right.

    I'll cite myself: "I'm very much in doubt considering the technical problems bplan/Thendic France/Genesi faced in employing even just a single G4..."

    > "support" and "specifications" in marketing materials doesn't
    > by any means guarantee support and delivered specs in real life,
    > as there has been many examples of

    And this is as well true for the SMP capability Marvell claim for the Discovery II?
  • »26.02.09 - 02:58
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    MorphDelf
    Posts: 274 from 2004/2/20
    From: Oslo, Norway
    1.
    With schematics of the CPU cards, in theory it would be able to make CPU cards for PegasosII with DDR3 slots etc?

    So in theory you could add an CPU card like for A4000 with 2GHz G4 + DDR3 RAM slots?

    ... but then, where is the schematics for Pegasos II CPU card schematics?

    2.

    Would there be any interest in 2GHz G4 cpu cards at all? How much would it cost comparing to getting a MacMini G4 etc?


    Thanks for keeping this thread alive :) BBRV ---- where is the CPU schematics???? ..
  • »24.08.09 - 12:48
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11715 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    It's getting tiresome. For once, try to check your facts.

    > in theory it would be able to make CPU cards for PegasosII with DDR3 slots etc?
    > So in theory you could add an CPU card [...] with 2GHz G4 + DDR3 RAM slots?

    There is no 2 GHz G4, as well as there is no G4 compatible memory controller with DDR3 interface, neither discrete nor integrated on a G4 SoC.

    > Thanks for keeping this thread alive :)

    I urge you to read and understand the facts stated within.
  • »24.08.09 - 15:52
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11715 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Addendum:

    > Hyperion have a dual MPC7410 card from MAI Logic for Articia S based
    > Teron/AmigaOne; the card was never put to test though.

    Some more information on that card:

    "IIRC the demo dual-CPU module had no arbitration HW and it was up to SW to stop one CPU while the other did something."
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34850&forum=33#645143


    Edit: Hyperionmp in March 2015 pretending the card was used by Hyperion for anything meaningful:

    "It seems many have forgotten that a dual CPU module existed for the original AmigaOne from Eyetech which was never commercialised but did nonetheless exist for other purposes."
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39959&forum=14&start=100#753297

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 23.10.2015 - 10:21 ]
  • »02.01.12 - 00:22
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    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    I'll never understand why you periodically rise old old threads..

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »02.01.12 - 15:13
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 140 from 2003/9/16
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    @Miky060

    The more info, the better, isnt it?

    Andras has such a good memory... and his thread recursivity is legendary! ;)
  • »02.01.12 - 17:43
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    stephen_robinson
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    One day he will disappear up his own infinite loop of links, I'll miss him.
  • »02.01.12 - 17:46
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    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
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    Let's buy him a DeLorean..

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »02.01.12 - 17:57
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2714 from 2003/2/24
    FrankBrana,
    Quote:

    The more info, the better, isnt it?


    A Wiki would be much better for this than a forum (which is meant for discussions)...

    Start a Wiki, Andreas! :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »02.01.12 - 21:04
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11715 from 2003/5/22
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    > I'll never understand why you periodically rise old old threads..

    That's strange considering that I always state the reason. In this case it's "some more information" regarding something that was discussed in this thread (you might have noticed that the AW.net posting I quoted from and linked to was mere 4 days old). In other cases it's updates, corrections, specifications, clarifications or other kinds of addendums. So I guess I don't understand what it is you don't understand with me rising old threads ;-)
  • »02.01.12 - 22:46
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    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
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    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    In other cases it's updates, corrections, specifications, clarifications or other kinds of addendums..



    Do you still have a real life?

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »03.01.12 - 11:35
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11715 from 2003/5/22
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    > Do you still have a real life?

    Yes, I have. And I hope that the time and energy your worries about my real life consume won't have a bad influence on your real life ;-)
  • »03.01.12 - 12:01
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1212 from 2004/12/1
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    now i'm curious. In this real life, how do you manage this compulsive need for information clarification and accuracy. And how do you verbally post links ?
  • »03.01.12 - 16:13
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11715 from 2003/5/22
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    > In this real life, how do you manage this compulsive need for
    > information clarification and accuracy.

    By pursuing a real life profession where this need is a compulsive skill.

    > how do you verbally post links ?

    I don't.
  • »03.01.12 - 16:28
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  • Just looking around
    Jose
    Posts: 15 from 2014/2/12
    What about soldering in a 7448 in current CPU cards ? It's a pin for pin compatible chip.

    [ Edited by Jose 12.02.2014 - 15:21 ]
  • »12.02.14 - 15:21
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