Open sourced pegasos?
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Marvell IV

    I think that would be "VI", not "IV".

    > The 8640D is [...] only a little faster than existing Peg2's G3
    > and G4

    1. MPC8640 vs. "Peg2's G3":

    core: 1.25 GHz e600 vs. 600 MHz PPC750CXe
    cache: 1 MiB L2 vs. 256 KiB L2
    bus: 500 MHz MPX (4 GB/s) vs. 133 MHz 60x (853 MB/s)

    I wouldn't call this "only a little faster", neither core-wise nor cache-wise nor bus-wise.

    2. MPC8640 vs. "Peg2's [...] G4":

    core: 1.25 GHz e600 vs. 1.0 GHz e600
    cache: 1 MiB L2 vs. 512 KiB L2
    bus: 500 MHz MPX (4 GB/s) vs. 133* MHz MPX (1066 MB/s)

    While 25% core speed increase can be considered "only a little faster", a bus speed increase of 275% and a L2 cache size increase of 100% really cannot in my book.


    * The MPC7447 itself supports 166 MHz MPX (1333 MB/s) but since the Discovery II northbridge only supports up to 133 MHz MPX, the MPC7447's bus speed is restricted to that value on the Pegasos II.
  • »01.02.09 - 23:37
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    koan
    Posts: 303 from 2005/11/21
    From: UK
    Quote:

    And hows that "cool" for simple homeuser?


    See all open windows by swiping 4 fingers down; scroll up, down, left and right in windows using two fingers, do rotations and zooms, etc. Very practical and useful for simple home users.

    More software means nothing unless it is good.

    Quote:

    Thats you and your opinion which is not the issue here.


    You totally ignored Linux as a mainstream OS and now you say people don't want Linux. Isn't that your opinion ? Have you actually used it ?

    I believe many home users wouldn't care as long as they get fast internet experience and can access all their files. I think they go with the name they know and no thanks to MS marketing propaganda that says open source software is insecure.

    If your real purpose is to play games you should get an XBox or a Playstation.

    Quote:

    I think you're trying to justify things how YOU feel, and not by looking at the bigger picture. Majority don't want what you want.


    What do I want ?

    I think the majority of people are happy to buy small, cheap computers for surfing web, email and a bit of editing and if that is without Windows then they don't really mind. That is what Eee customers bought, it's crazy to say that most people who bought Eee thought they were getting a Windows box.
  • »02.02.09 - 00:27
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    kolla
    Posts: 105 from 2003/4/22
    Quote:


    Neko wrote:
    Quote:

    Seriously, aim you producst at people like us, who actually think running somewhat "strange" hardware is cool, we are here.


    And there are less than 100 of you.



    And maybe only 4 of us at all interested in anything ARM.
    I'm curious, what is the target market for the next Genesi products?

    At least PowerPC is not something everyone is doing, allthough quite a few NAS have been PowerPC for a little while, new ones now seem to use lowend x86 SoCs, sadly. Will you go there as well?
    -- kolla
  • »02.02.09 - 01:19
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    kolla
    Posts: 105 from 2003/4/22
    Quote:


    koan wrote:
    Quote:

    You fail to mention _why_ Asus is dropping Linux - unsatisfied costumers!


    They didn't offer matching coats and trousers ?
    Sorry, I had to say it ;)



    LOL - I knew it didnt look quite right :-)

    Quote:


    This is not true. When the Eee PC was first offered, they were very open with screenshots that looked nothing like Windows.



    Heh, what kind of customers (double check.. yes, correct this time) browse screenshots before buying? Most try them out in the store where they buy them. And "nothing like windows"? Are you kidding? The window decorations and colour theming tries to mimic windows XP as much as possible. For the record, I do have an eeePC 901 myself, it's what I'm typing this on.

    Quote:

    The people who bought it did so because it was tiny, could edit files and do a bit of internet. It trailblazed the path for netbooks. It was only later, after they built up enough interest, that they considered going to Windows. Presumably with a slightly more powerful model and more favourable licence negotiated from MS; knowing that they could make the sales.



    OK, around here the eeePC didnt really get that much attention with the 700 series, it wasnt until the 900 came around that everyone wanted one and the sales took off.

    Quote:


    Why should a store have to "warn" people that a device is NOT Windows ? That seems bizarre marketing to me.



    Yeah well, they started doing that after a while, as more and more people came back wondering why they couldnt not install their regular software on it. Asus started feeling the preasure as eeepcs were returned or swapped out with windows versions.

    Quote:


    Quote:

    I dont know anyone outside geekhood who owns a N700/N800/N8210 - do you?


    My point was that there are products running a satisfactory version of Linux aimed at the general market; Matt was suggesting that Linux was not ready in some respect.



    Well, I dont think it is either, years of experience with linux on PDAs and various other devices just gave me frustration, it's not only in the user interface, it's actually just as much in how linux, or rather any unix, works - it doesnt fit well into a world of memory cards, usb sticks, network coming and going etc. The only people I know that are satisfied are people that prefer linux everywhere anyhow, they tend to forgive all the stuff that doesnt work well, and their single most used argument is that is surely is better than windows.

    Quote:


    I know a lot of people who want small, portable computers for internet, editing documents and nothing more. They know that Mac OSX is cooler than Windows but they can't afford it. They don't care about Windows if the device is cheap and small.



    So... why dont they have an eeepc already?

    Quote:


    Quote:

    Why would that make developers turn away?


    You misread my post. Let me sum up my last points more simply:

    IMHO the majority of developers who are interested in MorphOS don't want 2 machines on their desks.



    I suspect a majority of them already have at least 2 on their desks already.

    Quote:


    They don't want to compile on a powerful machine in order to run on a real and much less powerful machine.



    Why not? Why would anyone want to compile on an eeePC or nokia N810?

    Quote:


    Quote:

    imagine running MorphOS on a KVM instance


    It's only interesting from an academic point of view.



    Why? Look at AROS and VMWaros for example.
    -- kolla
  • »02.02.09 - 01:59
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    kolla
    Posts: 105 from 2003/4/22
    Quote:


    I think you're trying to justify things how YOU feel, and not by looking at the bigger picture. Majority don't want what you want.


    Since when did we care about what the majority wants?
    -- kolla
  • »02.02.09 - 02:07
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Sorry Andreas, I got the number wrong, but not the specs. The Marvell Vi still only has two 4 lane PCI-e channels.
    Further would an 8640D be a better option than a 1.7 GHz 7448? I'm not sure. And no one has touched on the other processors I mentioned.
    I'm definitely not that impressed with the 8610. Outside of a netbook, what would we use a processor with a built-in LCD controller for?
    Finally, we still have to consider the amount of work involved in the layout of a new board. Unless someone like bplan steps up to do it we are going to need to find someone that's set up to do this kind of work. The only people I personally know make boards for medical monitoring equipment. While they have done stuff similar to this on the side I don't know that I could persuade them to consider it.
    Do you have anybody in mind who might be willing to work on this?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.02.09 - 03:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The Marvell Vi still only has two 4 lane PCI-e channels.

    Yes. I did not indicate otherwise.

    > would an 8640D be a better option than a 1.7 GHz 7448? I'm not sure.

    Me too. The L2 cache size is on par (1 MiB). While the 7448 core is 36% higher clocked (1.7 GHz vs. 1.25 GHz), the 8640 bus is 150% higher clocked (500 MHz vs. 200 MHz). What is more important, faster core clock or faster bus clock, depends on the kind of application. (I'm ignoring the dual core option of the 8640(D) here as it would be of no use for MorphOS, which is the context here.)
    But I would guess a board without separate northbridge chip is more easily and cheaply developable and producable.

    > no one has touched on the other processors I mentioned.

    The PPC970(MP) is actually used in Fixstars' PowerStation. And even the PWRficient (that you didn't mention, btw) is actually used in a real product although its (non-)availability on the free market can be considered the same as Cell's.

    > Outside of a netbook, what would we use a processor with a built-in
    > LCD controller for?

    A board designer doesn't have to use the DIU. He can easily ignore it if it's not needed for the purpose of the board.

    > Do you have anybody in mind who might be willing to work on this?

    None, unfortunately.
  • »02.02.09 - 05:47
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  • Moderator
    hooligan
    Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Quote:


    koan wrote:

    You totally ignored Linux as a mainstream OS and now you say people don't want Linux. Isn't that your opinion ? Have you actually used it ?



    Yes I did. As long as only my geekiest friends use Linux I refuse to consider it as a mainstream OS. And yes, I have used Linux, and yes its my opinion.

    Quote:


    I believe many home users wouldn't care as long as they get fast internet experience and can access all their files. I think they go with the name they know and no thanks to MS marketing propaganda that says open source software is insecure.



    Agree. So far it just isn't so. And for example many people buy a Mac only because its "hip". Or was. Movieindustry for example boosted Mac-sales a lot. And my or yours mom really don't care about MS marketing propaganda about open source software, trust me on this :-)

    Quote:


    If your real purpose is to play games you should get an XBox or a Playstation.



    Have

    Quote:


    What do I want ?

    I think the majority of people are happy to buy small, cheap computers for surfing web, email and a bit of editing and if that is without Windows then they don't really mind. That is what Eee customers bought, it's crazy to say that most people who bought Eee thought they were getting a Windows box.


    I am aware of two people personally who thought they were buing a Windows-computer. As a matter of fact the other one got a refund based on lack of information from salesperson about the product. I wouldn't go as far as to say majority of people thought they were buying a Win-machine but it has happened. All ads I have seen about minilaptops has had a Vista-like "screen" on them, btw.

    Long story short, people are a bit afraid of Linux. Partly because it just didn't succeed as a homecomputer OS as it should and has a reputation of being complicated, and partly because most people want something "secure" and known.
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »02.02.09 - 06:26
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    hooligan
    Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Quote:


    kolla wrote:
    Quote:


    I think you're trying to justify things how YOU feel, and not by looking at the bigger picture. Majority don't want what you want.


    Since when did we care about what the majority wants?


    We aren't talking about us, we are talking about the majority ;-)
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »02.02.09 - 06:27
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    koan
    Posts: 303 from 2005/11/21
    From: UK
    Quote:

    And for example many people buy a Mac only because its "hip". Or was


    That's true. Another point, I just bought a MacBook Pro, not because it's hip or the OS. For me the major selling point was the design, apart from the glossy screen MacBooks are by far the best laptops. I went to a very large store with a massive selection of laptops and all of them were low quality compared to the Mac.

    Quote:

    And my or yours mom really don't care about MS marketing propaganda about open source software, trust me on this


    OK, I believe you. But I am sure you have experienced this conversation where you say you like MorphOS and the other person says "Why do you hate Windows ?" because Windows is the default and they never considered there might be another option.

    Quote:

    Long story short, people are a bit afraid of Linux. Partly because it just didn't succeed as a homecomputer OS as it should and has a reputation of being complicated, and partly because most people want something "secure" and known.


    On the contrary, I think Linux has been very successful as a home computer OS. It's very "Amiga-ish" to think that an OS is only successful if it beats Windows (which is not going to happen, by any OS, in the next 20 years).

    Linux is also very secure (unless you read MS propaganda...)

    Getting back on topic, MorphOS has exactly the same challenges as Linux in terms of recognition and desirability from the general consumer. It's unrealistic to expect to challenge Windows or Mac but I think we can broaden the appeal and grow a bit. For example, recent events such as Origyn web browser really help.
  • »03.02.09 - 06:44
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    Darth_X
    Posts: 571 from 2003/2/10
    From: Vancouver Isla...
    Quote:


    we are going to need to find someone that's set up to do this kind of work. The only people I personally know make boards for medical monitoring equipment. While they have done stuff similar to this on the side I don't know that I could persuade them to consider it.


    Would there be a demand for portable medical equipment that is low power (runs from batteries/solar) that can be worn/carried, powered by solar rechargable batteries, and used in disaster relief/war zones, etc.. :-?
    When you have eliminated all which is impossible,
    then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth!!! - Sherlock Holmes
  • »03.02.09 - 06:51
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    hooligan
    Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Quote:


    koan wrote:

    OK, I believe you. But I am sure you have experienced this conversation where you say you like MorphOS and the other person says "Why do you hate Windows ?" because Windows is the default and they never considered there might be another option.



    Oh it goes way beyond that point. Spectrum vs c64, Amiga vs Atari, Amiga vs pc, Playstation vs Xbox, Morphos vs Amigaos :lol:
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »03.02.09 - 15:59
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Neko
    Posts: 301 from 2003/2/24
    From: Genesi
    Quote:

    I'm curious, what is the target market for the next Genesi products?


    Somewhere where the primary reason for buying one is something other than "run MorphOS".

    As for the NAS question, there are too many NAS and router products already in the market, with very little differentiation. As I've said before on Power Developer and elsewhere, there is very little profit to be made building "the perfect NAS" (by your standards) which would cost $100 more than the competition to pay for it's extra features. The vast majority of consumers do not need or want those features and simply buy the one with the prettiest box and the lowest price on the shelf at Best Buy or the one that's on offer at TigerDirect.

    The only way to really, truly cut costs is to reduce the functionality of the product. If we shipped an MPC5200B Efika NAS, it would have no graphics or expansion capability at all, just room for disks and some basic software. You would not be running MorphOS - or doing anything you really like on it. In the end what does it matter that it has a PPC inside? ARM would be cheaper. So would MIPS, in fact you can buy pretty decent all-in-one MIPS NAS and router chipsets from any supplier like Broadcom.

    [ Edited by Neko on 2009/2/3 16:33 ]
    Matt Sealey, Genesi USA, Inc.
    Developer Relations
    Product Development Analyst
  • »03.02.09 - 16:24
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    I like Matt's candor. Genesi needs to broaden its customer base to be profitable. Morphos and Amiga OS4.1 customers at best only represent a few thousand people (and that number may be an over estimate). By refocusing on Open OS and embedded products Genesi's market could be far larger. It's only fair that we not place to much of a burden on them in our quest for hardware support for Morph.
    So, the Peg2 design schematics are available, but its a non-Rohs compliant design. Freescale has a motherboard design based on the 8640 and 8641 processors, but it uses a ULi southbridge which is not in production anymore. Currently, outside of IBM, development of the Power PC processor seems pretty stagnant (or at best, very slow moving forward).
    What does that leave us. Frankly I think we're back to waiting on a Mac port. If that occurs then maybe enough people will become interested in this to justify a new PPC based design. Until we have that momentum, I don't see a large enough of a market to justify the development costs.
    Jim
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »04.02.09 - 21:12
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1372 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ Jim

    Quote:

    Genesi needs to broaden its customer base to be profitable. Morphos and Amiga OS4.1 customers at best only represent a few thousand people (and that number may be an over estimate). By refocusing on Open OS and embedded products Genesi's market could be far larger.


    Genesi has been focused on open operating systems as opposed to MorphOS for four to five years now. Here is an excerpt from an official statement made in November 2004:

    "Genesi has become a partner/sponsor of the Debian, Gentoo and Crux Linux developer communities. Genesi is also enrolled in the official board support/partner programs of Yellow Dog Linux, Montavista and QNX Software Systems. It is in these areas that Genesi is now focused."

    So, this is hardly a new development.
  • »04.02.09 - 22:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > By refocusing on Open OS and embedded products Genesi's market
    > could be far larger.

    http://www.genesi-usa.com/software only lists *one* that is neither. Guess which ;-)
  • »05.02.09 - 00:06
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    No, no new observations. Just summarizing the obvious.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »05.02.09 - 02:09
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    In case anyone is still following this thread, I've got a question. I've been looking over the Peg2 schematics and I seem to be missing something. Where are the diagrams for the processor cards?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.02.09 - 22:51
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 80 from 2009/1/19
    The info I looked at didn't seem to have the card details either, just signals coming down from the card but not card itself.

    I originally started this post out of curiosity and to also field opinions on the subject. Since this time, I have concluded that it would be very difficult to create a new/updated board that would be reasonably priced. Major bummer but a reality.

    So only option = mac ports. With no hardware development, this becomes a software development game now and one involving mac. It will also be a game that ultimately keeps Morph a hobby system. A shame because I feel it is a great little OS.

    I will be watching what happens with the Anubis OS. Supposedly it will be a combination of Amiga design aspects (Orig-Morph-Aros) running on a custom linux kernal. This could be interesting. I see their logic in wanting the linux kernal. They can ride for free in regards to many hardware support aspects.

    Anyway its back to configuring the Efika.....

    [ Edited by Rodomoc on 2009/2/11 17:34 ]
  • »11.02.09 - 23:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    If *anyone* is truly planning to do *anything* with the design schematics, I would like to propose a little gadget to make use of the second Gigabit Ethernet connector!

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.02.09 - 07:57
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:

    make use of the second Gigabit Ethernet connector!


    The Open Desktop Workstation, and the Home Media Center, the last incarnations of the Pegasos 2, did have gigabit ethernet... Or am I wrong?
  • »12.02.09 - 12:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12097 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The Open Desktop Workstation, and the Home Media Center, the last
    > incarnations of the Pegasos 2, did have gigabit ethernet...

    *All* Pegasos 2 have GbE. I think he refered to the fact that the Discovery II MV64361 has indeed *two* on-chip GbE controllers.
    But instead of just adding a second GbE connector one could also substitute the MV64361 for the MV64360, which has not just three GbE controllers but also 64 bit PCI(-X) instead of 32 bit ones, or even better -- as already suggested by the thread opener -- take a newer Discovery (III, LT, V, VI) :-)
  • »12.02.09 - 15:14
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    judas
    Posts: 175 from 2005/1/14
    From: core of universe
    I allready tried to get hold of an gadget to make the 2nd gigabit work.
    Does anyone know if there's any standard which this gadget belongs to ?
  • »12.02.09 - 16:14
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    Golem
    Posts: 766 from 2003/2/28
    From: Denmark
    Quote:

    I would like to propose a little gadget to make use of the second Gigabit Ethernet connector!

    Would that work without firmware support?
  • »12.02.09 - 17:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    *All* Pegasos 2 have GbE. I think he refered to the fact that the Discovery II MV64361 has indeed *two* on-chip GbE controllers.


    Indeed, and the second one is routed to the little horizontal mini-slot at the bottom of this picture (between the memory slots and CPU slot). You will need a little PCB-thingy to plug it in though.

    Quote:

    Would that work without firmware support?


    It's supported already.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.02.09 - 19:49
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