X1000
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    64 bit (soon to be 128 bit)


    What? 128 bit processors? Tell us more, please... By the way, I still fail to see usefulness in a 64 bit processor, outside from extremely high end scientific and datacenter environments. Their only advantage is being able to adress an absurd amount of memory in a single space, right?

    By the way, I'd summarize your comparison:

    MorphOS

    No market.

    x86 OSes

    Market.

    And have in mind, most of the advantages you've cited in "x86 OSes" are, actually, exclusive to a vertain VERY popular x86 operating system...

    Quote:

    What advantages does MorphOS bring to the X86 platform?


    Didn't you know yet? Computer fun! Not that there's a market for that, of course.

    Quote:

    I would never attempt to write code on a X86 machine witout a high level programming tool.


    From what I learnt recently about compilers, attempting to write in assembly language simply makes no sense: Their code optimizers are able to do things not even an good assembly coder would dare to.

    Quote:

    If MorphOS moves to the X86 platform, I will stay with Windows.



    Legitimate choice. And it also has its logic. But the idea is not what MorphOS would bring to a different hardware, but what that different hardware (cheap, powerfull, available) would bring to MorphOS.

    Regular people don't even know that a computer has a certain processor. Decades in software development were aimed at that (what a triumph, I'd say).
  • »24.06.10 - 14:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > What? 128 bit processors? Tell us more, please...

    I guess he refers to this:

    "It is rumored that Windows 8 will support 128-bit."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128-bit

    I don't know of any existing or announced 128 bit CPUs, though.
  • »24.06.10 - 16:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If MorphOS moves to the X86 platform, I will stay with Windows.

    You really mean "move"? Or rather "switch"? ;-)
  • »24.06.10 - 16:42
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Rajinder
    Posts: 38 from 2010/3/24
    From: West-yorkshire...
    @jcmarcos
    What? 128 bit processors? Tell us more, please... By the way, I still fail to see usefulness in a 64 bit processor, outside from extremely high end scientific and datacenter environments. Their only advantage is being able to adress an absurd amount of memory in a single space, right?

    extremely high end - this to include adobe cs5 ?, i have just had to upgrade to 64bit os to run the dam program
  • »24.06.10 - 23:54
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  • Moderator
    Golem
    Posts: 766 from 2003/2/28
    From: Denmark
    Humm....
  • »25.06.10 - 00:21
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Frankly, under Windows, which is a memory wasteful OS having more than 3.5 GB is very useful, I have a copy of Win7 64 with 8 GB of ddr2.

    Secondly, assemble language is still more efficient than C. Using it on a RISC processor is far easier than a CISC (X86). The number of instructions available on an X86 has becomeinsane.

    Just because you don;'t want to use assembly, doesn't mean I don't. The most efficient code I wrote on the 68K was in assembly, PPCs still make this of possibility under MorphOS.

    Never mind the huge amount of resources need for the conversion.

    To hell with X86, give me Titan!
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.06.10 - 03:36
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Quote:


    Secondly, assemble language is still more efficient than C. Using it on a RISC processor is far easier than a CISC (X86). The number of instructions available on an X86 has becomeinsane.



    I have to disagree. It does not really matter if you shave few instructions off from assembly routine. It is more important to optimize at algorithm level and there higher level languages are better.

    I wouldnt call PPC asm easy either. Coding on 68k asm was easy, I did that many years before MorphOS, but PPC RISC architecture is load/store architecture where you have to write lot more instructions to do same.

    C is way to go.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »25.06.10 - 06:39
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Would you like a complete list of the X86 instruction set including additions by both AMD and Intel? As far as I can tell, its the largest instruction set of any microprocessor series.

    As to the RISC instruction set of the PPC, simplified instructions were supposed be part of the advantage of the RISC approach.

    And I wouldn't have called 68K assembly easy, just easier.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.06.10 - 01:17
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    @Jim

    itix is right. Algorithm optimization is way more important than assembly optimizations. Sure, these are important too, but only when the compiler doesn't do a good job there, eg. with ppc instructions like eg. cntlzw which doesn't have a C equivalent -ie. no C instruction/group of instructions get translated to this asm instruction, or when the compiler messes up scheduling -not very often, but it happens. Otherwise, it's just a waste of time just to achieve a 2-5% speed increase.
  • »26.06.10 - 09:12
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    No thanks. I dont code with assembler any more. Occasionally I check how my code looks in asm when trying to optimize tight loop but other than that it is irrelevant today.

    PPC instructions are easy to understand (though may look cryptic for beginner) and I dont have problem reading disassembly but writing code in PPC asm is tedious... I mean you need many steps to do simple var++ thing and ponder if you should keep var in registers or not...
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »26.06.10 - 14:22
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    amyren
    Posts: 219 from 2010/5/15
    From: Norway
    Quote:


    Rajinder wrote:
    @mos developers
    if that t-dick bloke were to supply an x1000 would you consider porting mos to the machine.

    or would that just be a no no ?...

    (i did read in a ami org forum, that the dick bloke would be up for it been porting over)
    i know people say about the price of it, but how much was the amigaone and peg boards new


    About that "t-dick bloke"...
    Just reading the recent interview with Trevor Dickinson.
    Apple is mentioned, and he stated he doesnt like Apple. He does have an Apple product, but with MorphOS on it :)
  • »30.06.10 - 09:07
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Apple is mentioned, and he stated he doesnt like Apple. He does have an
    > Apple product, but with MorphOS on it :)

    Yes, it has been known for years that he likes and uses MorphOS.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7186&forum=11&post_id=74362#74362
  • »30.06.10 - 09:40
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    it has been known for years that he likes and uses MorphOS.


    I remember a certain "trevordisk" user, maybe even here, in MorphZone. Then, why sending his investors down the AmigaOS route, which is inferior MorphOS? Thes "tha brand" have that much power?
  • »30.06.10 - 10:52
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I remember a certain "trevordisk" user, maybe even here, in MorphZone.

    I take it you mean "trevordick", not "trevordisk". And you're right, he's been a MorphZone member since October 2005:

    https://morph.zone/userinfo.php?uid=1754

    And yes, it was somewhat stupid from me to refer to his amigaworld.net postings when the evidence is right here on MorphZone ;-)

    > Then, why sending his investors down the AmigaOS route, which is
    > inferior MorphOS? Thes "tha brand" have that much power?

    I don't know his motivation for preferring OS4 over MorphOS in this regard. It might have to do with brand recognition, yes. You have to keep in mind that according to Dickinson the X1000 endeavour started in 2007, i.e. way before the release of MorphOS 2.0. And I think you remember how MorphOS development was publically perceived back then.

    Btw, his stance on the MorphOS pricing strategy (150 EUR per licence back then and before availability of Mac G4 version, though):
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6316&forum=3&post_id=63311#63311
  • »30.06.10 - 11:51
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1213 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    Quote:

    I take it you mean "trevordick", not "trevordisk". And you're right, he's been a MorphZone member since October 2005:


    though he's not a diskhead i still don't want him to suck my disk.
  • »30.06.10 - 12:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If MorphOS moves to the X86 platform, I will stay with Windows.

    In a recent interview Pascal "phoenixkonsole" Papara (the man behind AresOne and AROS distribution Broadway) told:

    "On the Amiga Event in Essen someone told me that even the MorphOS Team said they will stop using PowerPC in 2013."
    http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/itwpapara_en.php

    Would be interesting to know who this "someone" was and if this "someone's" alleged statement resembles the truth in any way. Maybe the MorphOS Team can clarify if there really ever was such definite thing (like "2013") said by them.
  • »03.08.10 - 21:34
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > If MorphOS moves to the X86 platform, I will stay with Windows.

    In a recent interview Pascal "phoenixkonsole" Papara (the man behind AresOne and AROS distribution Broadway) told:

    "On the Amiga Event in Essen someone told me that even the MorphOS Team said they will stop using PowerPC in 2013."
    http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/itwpapara_en.php

    Would be interesting to know who this "someone" was and if this "someone's" alleged statement resembles the truth in any way. Maybe the MorphOS Team can clarify if there really ever was such definite thing (like "2013") said by them.


    Clearly a statement that requires a response.
    I'd hate to have devoted this much time to PPC systems if there is such a time table.
    Any developers (especially those who were at Essen) care to comment?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »04.08.10 - 01:13
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    amiades
    Posts: 231 from 2005/6/2
    From: Asturies, Spain
    Quote:

    "On the Amiga Event in Essen someone told me that even the MorphOS Team said they will stop using PowerPC in 2013."


    Perhaps 2012's "End of the world" is the reason? xD Only Amiga 2000s will survive thanks to their 2mm metal case.
  • »04.08.10 - 06:13
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    "someone told me that even the MorphOS Team said they will stop using PowerPC in 2013"


    I'd hate to have devoted this much time to PPC systems if there is such a time table.


    Your could easily put your hate aside if, in the end, you get a better computer to run your favourite software on. Being "better computer" defined as faster, with more functions, cheaper and widely available. PowerPC processors are nice, of course, but not enough to tie a life to them. We'd already made that mistake with the original Amiga chipset. Many of the ones surviving suffer no hate after replacing them with regular components, driven by regular buses.

    Now, let's face the idea of porting such a tight operating system and drivers to, say, 1,000,000 possible combination of pieces that people call "PC". Even if the MorphOS Team is a small crowd of geniuses, I'd be terrified at that scenario.
  • »04.08.10 - 06:30
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Get27
    Posts: 90 from 2004/8/23
    From: Vinzelles, France
    It's logic, when all interesting PowerPC Mac will be supported, it will be the end.
    So, it will be time to switch again (we have ever switched from 68k to PPC).
    No problem for me, i will follow.

    [ Edité par Get27 le 4/8/2010 13:32 ]
    PowerMac 3.5, G4 1.0GHz DP, 1GB ram, 80GB HD + NAS, Radeon 9600 128MB Mac, 1680x1050
    PowerMac 7.3, G5 2.3GHz DP, 4GB ram, 160GB HD + NAS, Radeon 9800 128MB PC, 1680x1050
    Amiga 500+, Vampire 500v2+, HxC Floppy
  • »04.08.10 - 10:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    In 2013 we and the MorphOS Team won't have to worry about which computer architecture we will all be using because according to the Mayan calendar and Nostradamus we are all going to be dead because the World is going to end in December of 2012. :lol:

    If no other more interesting computer platform is invented before then (which is not likely unless it is already in development now and almost ready for production), I have no problem with the MorphOS Team porting to x86/x64 hardware. If/when they do such a switch to x86/x64, I think they should pick a few specific sets of mobo's and components to support, or just support the same hardware that AROS is supporting, instead of trying to support too many different combinations and spreading themselves too thin. Quality over quantity with perhaps at least one low end configuration and one high end workstation supported so people can choose which one they want to buy.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »04.08.10 - 10:55
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  • ZB
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    ZB
    Posts: 115 from 2008/9/29
    Quote:


    Get27 wrote:
    It's logic, when all interesting PowerPC Mac will be supported, it will be the end.
    So, it will be time to switch again (we have ever switched from 68k to PPC).
    No problem for me, i will follow.



    I will follow also...
    ---
    Morphing the Phoenix...
  • »04.08.10 - 11:04
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > according to the Mayan calendar and Nostradamus we are all going to be dead
    > because the World is going to end in December of 2012.

    That's a common misconception regarding the implications of the Mayan calendar. See:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon#Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar#2012_and_the_Long_Count

    And I'm not aware of Nostradamus having said anything about 2012.
  • »04.08.10 - 12:24
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Clearly a statement that requires a response. [...] Any developers (especially
    > those who were at Essen) care to comment?

    Unfortunately no public comment from any MorphOS Team member yet (unless I missed something). But there's some more info from Pascal Papara:

    http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/comments/251888.html (German)

    Paraphrased: This "someone" who told about the alleged MorphOS 'roadmap' is no MorphOS Team member himself. He was a normal guest at Essen, wearing a "MOS-Team-shirt"(*). And he is a regular visitor of geit's hardware meetings.

    (*) I guess Pascal means "MorphOS T-shirt", without the "Team" part.


    As long as the MorphOS Team stays silence on this matter the only way to know more about that curious statement is to identify this "someone" (or let him identify himself) and ask him the necessary question(s).
  • »04.08.10 - 14:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > Unfortunately no public comment from any MorphOS Team member
    > yet [...] As long as the MorphOS Team stays silence on this matter...

    What seems to be an official clarification from the MorphOS Team is there at last:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7289&forum=3

    Thanks Piru!
  • »04.08.10 - 15:44
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