X1000
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1188 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    @golem

    sorry i should have added "not worth it in my opinion, or for me"
    i know that it is far enough for most users, but i have another dream.
  • »23.06.10 - 17:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    boot_wb
    Posts: 874 from 2007/4/9
    From: Kingston upon ...
    Whilst I'd love to see MorphOS on this machine, I'm not holding out much hope. Too much politics. It was a welcome development to see AmigaOS4.x ported to the Peg2 machines: given the history it was a surprise to say the least, but I just can't see this being reciprocated.
    Additionally, AmigaOS4.x had a lot to gain from the porting effort (proven, powerful, relatively cheap, relatively easily available machines), whereas MorphOS does not have that need: having moved towards Mac PPC support, the powerful hardware is already cheap and easily available.

    I've had dealings with Trevor in the past, and he's always come across as a good guy - both to talk to and to do business with.
    He also has a good business pedigree, so I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to pull it off: even if his own personal interest in the Amiga blinded him with optimism (and I don't believe this to be the case), I would be surprised if that would be enough to convince his business partner (Anthony Moorley) to invest. There must be a sound business plan in place.

    Personally I do think the initial quoted price is higher than is sustainable within the community, although I will buy one anyway if funds permit.
    However, when compared against the price of the top-end Mac product lines the price does not seem quite so ridiculously high after all (although one can argue about comparative performance, etc of course).

    As to ever seeing a MorphOS release for it: as the devs say, so it goes (and that seems to be somewhere between a 'highly unlikely' and a 'definitely-not').
    www.hullchimneyservices.co.uk

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  • »23.06.10 - 18:23
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2491 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Jim wrote:
    Quote:


    jcmarcos wrote:
    (wow, no mention of "x86" since long in this debate, interesting!)


    Thank god for that. Is there a reason so many keep pushing for another AROS?


    It wouldn't be another AROS, it would be the very same MorphOS, but (hopefully) running on the latest (or thereabout) desktop hardware. If it wouldn't, it wouldn't be interesting to Amigans, and if it wouldn't be interesting to Amigans, then the MorphOS team wouldn't do it! ;-)

    I have yet to see any MorphOS developer persisting that PPC is the way *forward* from here. Rather the opposite, I have seen numerous MorphOS developers pointing out that PPC is somewhat of a dead end at this point, and that a platform jump will be necessary at some point.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »23.06.10 - 20:25
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2491 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > All the four or five of them.

    Dickinson told at VCF that they had already more than 150 betatester applicants.


    ...meaning nothing else than that 150+ people has *sent him an e-mail* because they were curios for more information (not much info was provided in the PR, I actually thought of sending him an e-mail myself just to find out more), and *not* that 150+ people has chipped in the EUR 750 in pre-payment money they require of their beta testers.

    In fact, since e-mailing is so darn quick and easy to do, and totally free of charge, and the fact that they did so much hyping around this, this low number should be a big disappointment to them.

    Even if as many as 1/2 of those would go ahead and actually pre-pay, they *wouldn't come close* to fill their financial fundraiser goal of EUR 75,000...

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma on 2010/6/23 22:38 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »23.06.10 - 20:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9750 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I actually thought of sending him an e-mail myself just to find out more

    Fortunately there's the Bunny ;-)

    > *not* that 150+ people has chipped in the EUR 750 in pre-payment money
    > they require of their beta testers.

    I know. But I think that of those 150+ way more than "four or five" will finally pay.
  • »23.06.10 - 21:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Fortunately there's the Bunny


    Which reads: "The Beta Test Program does not require you to be a developer or have any specific programming skills but does expect you to use the computer and report back any bugs you discover with the software". Translation: "We consider any dumbass a qualified computer tester as long as he's got money".

    Mind you, if they are asking just 750 for a testing system, that gives you an idea about the price of it. But then, the final product is to be sold by more than TWICE.

    [ Edited by jcmarcos on 2010/6/24 10:24 ]
  • »24.06.10 - 08:22
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1842 from 2003/6/4
    Soundquare:

    While I think the PA6T is one of the most interesting chips out there I think there a few things to consider:
    It is a dual core chip. But since SMP is not possible you'll have to wait to take some advanatge of teh 2nd core until some AMP appears. Then apps can take adavantge, but I guess it will happen too soon. Mind you the OS4 worls is known for optimistic guesses and announcements followed from uncounted delays and betas and confirmations that it works internally. How long is high speed usb working internally now? i don't know all I know is it is not there, after so many years... That's just not very convincing (of course in butterfly country it isn't all rosy and shiny, but at least there seems to be some common sense about real life and real life xpectations)...
    - The PA6T is praobably a dead end. I wish it were not, but it seesm so. I know there are rumours that Apple licensed it to another comapny, but I haven't seen any confirmation.
    - The PA6T is probably very expensive (teh X1000 keeps being ridiculous expensive). It is currently more or less exclusively used in mil products. The way costs get calculated in that business is a bit different tahn in the consumer market.
    - It became de facto a mil product. I don't like that and wouln't buy a computer produced by Rheinmetall or LockheedMartin (one of the key customers of the PA6T) either.
    - OS4 performs way worse than MorphOS. I wouldn't be surprised if MorphOS will perform better on a Mac mini G4 1500 than OS4 on one core of a 1.8 GHZ PA Semi.
    - Many MorphOS apps are more polished and perfrom better.


    You're a music guy and stated you appreciate/need some Win/(Mac?) audio applications. On MorphOS and OS4 there are a few nice apps, but you cannot do everything. Means, you need a Win/Mac maschine anyway.
    I would suggest to go for a powerful x86 (core i7) to do the heavy tasks and closing some application gaps and keep a compact, tiny maschine for the other stuff (Mac mini or, hopefully Powerbook). Sure, these maschines are not new, but Apple had a good producton standard back then and tehy are *cheap* (my Mac mini costed me about 250 EUR 1.5 years ago) and I am again and again surprised how good it performs.

    Energy uptake: Yes the Mac mini takes up a bit more than an averga e Atom setup, but not that much:
    mac mini:
    typical: 30-32 Watt
    Max: ~50 Watt (CPU-load 100%, strong DVD/HD-Activity)
    Min: 23-25 Watt (idle)
    ATX-Standby: ~5 Watt


    [ Edited by Zylesea on 2010/6/24 12:10 ]
    --
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    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »24.06.10 - 09:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2491 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    jcmarcos wrote:

    Mind you, if they are asking just 750 for a testing system, that gives you an idea about the price of it. But then, the final product is to be sold by more than TWICE.


    It won't cost as little as 750 EUR, that is only the deposit/pre-payment part. We now know that a system will cost *more* than EUR 1800+. The beta testers are promised a discount though (but they aren't considered "end-users").
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »24.06.10 - 09:25
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:

    750 EUR is only the deposit/pre-payment part


    For which, if I were A-Eon, I'd try to cover as much board cost as possible. Hence the cost estimation I suggested.

    Quote:

    a system will cost *more* than EUR 1800


    Absoulte scandal, and commercial suicide since the beginning. That'a what happens when you want to play the hardware game. No amigan company has the funds to do so. Nor any other company works this way since ages anyway.
    You buy already proven designs, with generally available parts, and TRY to make a margin out of it. Heck, even the strongest players in the videogame market make LOSSES on hardware, go figure the amount of cash they have for that. How? Easy: They have a MARKET.

    For god's sake, it's such an ovbious fan ripoff.

    I'm not implying you aren't aware of all this, of course. Also, Ulrich's comments about that weirdo CPU of choice are very insightful.

    Each and every day I see more and more greatness in the idea of the MorphOS Team to use second hand consumer hardware. It's plainly obvious, thus brilliant. Of course, it leads to hardware debate lowering to a minimum... Which, if you think about it, it's actually good.
  • »24.06.10 - 09:46
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    _DaNi_
    Posts: 154 from 2010/5/4
    From: Barcelona, Spain
    I think X1000 is a great machine with a lot of new "amiga expansive" but the high prize is a negative point. Is very interesting see and porting morphos to other?s boards, like e600 freescale boards for example, (e600 SoC) and more mac models like powebook, powermac etc.
  • »24.06.10 - 11:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9750 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > they are asking just 750 for a testing system

    750+ is not for a system but for the board (+RAM?). The betatesters are expected to add the other components themselves.

    > the final product is to be sold by more than TWICE.

    ...and includes more than just the board (+RAM?).
  • »24.06.10 - 13:48
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4593 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:


    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    It wouldn't be another AROS, it would be the very same MorphOS, but (hopefully) running on the latest (or thereabout) desktop hardware. If it wouldn't, it wouldn't be interesting to Amigans, and if it wouldn't be interesting to Amigans, then the MorphOS team wouldn't do it! ;-)

    I have yet to see any MorphOS developer persisting that PPC is the way *forward* from here. Rather the opposite, I have seen numerous MorphOS developers pointing out that PPC is somewhat of a dead end at this point, and that a platform jump will be necessary at some point.



    An X86 version of MorphOS compared to existing X86 OS'

    MorphOS
    32 bit
    No memory protection
    Partial implementation of OpenGL
    No Flash
    Suopports only one processor core
    Limited Library of APs

    X86 OSs
    64 bit (soon to be 128 bit)
    memory protection
    Full implementation of OpenGL PLUS
    Direct X routines that generally outperform Open GL
    Flash
    Supports multiple cores
    Vast library of applications


    What advantages does MorphOS bring to the X86 platform?

    With the current PPC version of MorphOS I can still consider working in Assembly code, I would never attempt to write code on a X86 machine witout a high level programming tool.

    If MorphOS moves to the X86 platform, I will stay with Windows.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.06.10 - 14:00
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1842 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    Jim wrote:

    What advantages does MorphOS bring to the X86 platform?



    Exactly the same as it does on ppc.
    I think ppl who use MorphOS do that not because they happen to have some ppc hardware out of the sudden and have no other choice than to install MorphOS on that maschines, but the other way around.
    They buy any hardware suitable for MorphOS because they want to use MorphOS. The underlying hardware is not important. Ideally it should be fast, cheap, easy to get and energy efficient...
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »24.06.10 - 14:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9750 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > that weirdo CPU of choice

    While the PA6T is indeed solely used in (military) embedded space today it was originally designed as a desktop and notebook CPU (low-energy, G5 performance class) for Apple. Apple's switch to Intel before the PA6T was ready left P.A.Semi with no other choice than to sell it into the embedded market (where some of the desktop oriented features the chip provides are left unused I bet) after release. The PA6T's utilization in the AmigaOne X1000 takes the chip to where it was supposed to be right from the start: the desktop. With some lateness though ;-)
  • »24.06.10 - 14:33
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9750 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > porting morphos to other's boards, like e600 freescale boards for example, (e600 SoC)

    You mean Freescale's MPC8610HPCD evaluation board for the MPC8610 or the MPC8641HPCN evaluation board for the MPC8641(D)/MPC8640(D)? If yes, let me tell you that these boards cost several thousand USD each.
  • »24.06.10 - 14:53
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    64 bit (soon to be 128 bit)


    What? 128 bit processors? Tell us more, please... By the way, I still fail to see usefulness in a 64 bit processor, outside from extremely high end scientific and datacenter environments. Their only advantage is being able to adress an absurd amount of memory in a single space, right?

    By the way, I'd summarize your comparison:

    MorphOS

    No market.

    x86 OSes

    Market.

    And have in mind, most of the advantages you've cited in "x86 OSes" are, actually, exclusive to a vertain VERY popular x86 operating system...

    Quote:

    What advantages does MorphOS bring to the X86 platform?


    Didn't you know yet? Computer fun! Not that there's a market for that, of course.

    Quote:

    I would never attempt to write code on a X86 machine witout a high level programming tool.


    From what I learnt recently about compilers, attempting to write in assembly language simply makes no sense: Their code optimizers are able to do things not even an good assembly coder would dare to.

    Quote:

    If MorphOS moves to the X86 platform, I will stay with Windows.



    Legitimate choice. And it also has its logic. But the idea is not what MorphOS would bring to a different hardware, but what that different hardware (cheap, powerfull, available) would bring to MorphOS.

    Regular people don't even know that a computer has a certain processor. Decades in software development were aimed at that (what a triumph, I'd say).
  • »24.06.10 - 15:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9750 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > What? 128 bit processors? Tell us more, please...

    I guess he refers to this:

    "It is rumored that Windows 8 will support 128-bit."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128-bit

    I don't know of any existing or announced 128 bit CPUs, though.
  • »24.06.10 - 17:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9750 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If MorphOS moves to the X86 platform, I will stay with Windows.

    You really mean "move"? Or rather "switch"? ;-)
  • »24.06.10 - 17:42
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Rajinder
    Posts: 38 from 2010/3/24
    From: West-yorkshire...
    @jcmarcos
    What? 128 bit processors? Tell us more, please... By the way, I still fail to see usefulness in a 64 bit processor, outside from extremely high end scientific and datacenter environments. Their only advantage is being able to adress an absurd amount of memory in a single space, right?

    extremely high end - this to include adobe cs5 ?, i have just had to upgrade to 64bit os to run the dam program
  • »25.06.10 - 00:54
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  • Moderator
    Golem
    Posts: 766 from 2003/2/28
    From: Denmark
    Humm....
  • »25.06.10 - 01:21
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4593 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Frankly, under Windows, which is a memory wasteful OS having more than 3.5 GB is very useful, I have a copy of Win7 64 with 8 GB of ddr2.

    Secondly, assemble language is still more efficient than C. Using it on a RISC processor is far easier than a CISC (X86). The number of instructions available on an X86 has becomeinsane.

    Just because you don;'t want to use assembly, doesn't mean I don't. The most efficient code I wrote on the 68K was in assembly, PPCs still make this of possibility under MorphOS.

    Never mind the huge amount of resources need for the conversion.

    To hell with X86, give me Titan!
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.06.10 - 04:36
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1514 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Quote:


    Secondly, assemble language is still more efficient than C. Using it on a RISC processor is far easier than a CISC (X86). The number of instructions available on an X86 has becomeinsane.



    I have to disagree. It does not really matter if you shave few instructions off from assembly routine. It is more important to optimize at algorithm level and there higher level languages are better.

    I wouldnt call PPC asm easy either. Coding on 68k asm was easy, I did that many years before MorphOS, but PPC RISC architecture is load/store architecture where you have to write lot more instructions to do same.

    C is way to go.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »25.06.10 - 07:39
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4593 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Would you like a complete list of the X86 instruction set including additions by both AMD and Intel? As far as I can tell, its the largest instruction set of any microprocessor series.

    As to the RISC instruction set of the PPC, simplified instructions were supposed be part of the advantage of the RISC approach.

    And I wouldn't have called 68K assembly easy, just easier.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.06.10 - 02:17
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    @Jim

    itix is right. Algorithm optimization is way more important than assembly optimizations. Sure, these are important too, but only when the compiler doesn't do a good job there, eg. with ppc instructions like eg. cntlzw which doesn't have a C equivalent -ie. no C instruction/group of instructions get translated to this asm instruction, or when the compiler messes up scheduling -not very often, but it happens. Otherwise, it's just a waste of time just to achieve a 2-5% speed increase.
  • »26.06.10 - 10:12
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1514 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    No thanks. I dont code with assembler any more. Occasionally I check how my code looks in asm when trying to optimize tight loop but other than that it is irrelevant today.

    PPC instructions are easy to understand (though may look cryptic for beginner) and I dont have problem reading disassembly but writing code in PPC asm is tedious... I mean you need many steps to do simple var++ thing and ponder if you should keep var in registers or not...
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »26.06.10 - 15:22
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