Beginners Setup
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11471 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> MorphOS cannot read more than 1.8Gb of RAM, if I've got
    >> that figure correct, or thereabouts, so no matter how
    >> much more RAM you fit it won't be useable under MorphOS.

    > My whole work day consists of sitting in front of a browser - I hardly
    > ever open anything else. My browser contains everything I need to work:
    > [...]. I have a browser with about 20 open tabs. [...] concerning work,
    > only speed and browser power is relevant. Which means - if I want to use
    > MorphOS for work I need to make sure that: a. it runs on systems that
    > are really fast and b. have a browser that is cutting edge.

    With MorphOS, there are at least those problems (probably more) with your browser requirement:
    - MorphOS can only use up to 1.7 GiB RAM, which means only up to 1.5 GiB for the browser, which surely wouldn't suffice for 20 web apps running concurrently
    - MorphOS can only use 1 CPU core, no matter how many there are in the hardware, so this single core will have to run all your web apps
    - even the latest PowerMac G5 is 16 years old, which shows performance-wise
    - Wayfarer lacks a JavaScript JIT compiler, making modern web apps run even slower

    > At the moment, MorphOS is only running on Legacy Systems.

    While probably not everyone would agree with calling the X5000 a legacy system, MorphOS running on it has the same limitations mentioned above (yes, also performance-wise, although it is more than a decade younger than the latest PowerMac G5).

    > I hope there will be a new PPC computer that is fast
    > and high-end somewhere in the future.

    There have been for some years (as I linked to in comment #44). Direct links:

    https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/
    https://www.raptorcs.com/BB/

    I guess if the MorphOS team had (a) Blackbird(s), a port would be highly likely.

    > once it is, MorphOS would be a really inexpensive awesome alternative
    > for companies who work with web apps all the time, but only have
    > limited budget for their hardware. If they have to buy 10 G5 Macs and
    > pay 79 bucks per seat instead of buying 10 M1 Apple Macs .... well :-)

    I really don't think this reasoning makes sense, first for the reasons mentioned above, and second because AMD64/x64/x86-64 hardware with G5 level performance can also be had for (next to) nothing. I don't see any economic incentive for companies to utilize Power(PC) systems running MorphOS for their employees.
  • »29.07.21 - 14:36
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    pikewerfer
    Posts: 29 from 2021/7/9
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    I really don't think this reasoning makes sense, first for the reasons mentioned above, and second because AMD64/x64/x86-64 hardware with G5 level performance can also be had for (next to) nothing. I don't see any economic incentive for companies to utilize Power(PC) systems running MorphOS for their employees.


    Haha - agreed. A really cheap box with a free Linux will get you there. Sad but true. :-)

    So nostalgia and fun are our main drivers here. But I still think we could make the effort? We need more memory access, being able to access more CPU power plus a port to a high-end machine. Sounds doable - I believe a good scrum team could get there in a few months.

    How about a kickstarter/fundraiser to buy a BB?
    Mac Mini 1.25 GHZ, 1 GB RAM, MorphOS 3.15
  • »29.07.21 - 21:52
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Zetec-s
    Posts: 166 from 2008/7/10
    From: Cheshire, UK
    You've reached the same point that we all do after using MorphOS, the need for speed!

    Hence, why I picked up a G5 after starting with a MacMini.

    MorphOS and particularly Wayfarer are so good, you just know that with a JIT Java implementation and more modern hardware it really would be able to be a proper daily driver, rather than a weekend bit of fun.
    PowerMac G5 Quad 2.5Ghz/2GB MorphOS 3.15 Registered
    Powerbook 1.67Ghz/1.5GB MorphOS 3.15 Registered
    MacMini 1.5Ghz/1GB MorphOS 3.15 Registered
    Efika 5200B 400Mhz/128MB MorphOS 2.3 Registered
  • »29.07.21 - 22:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11471 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > We need more memory access, being able to access more CPU power

    The restrictions to 2 GiB memory addressing and single-core processing are part of the Amiga heritage. It's part of what enables MorphOS to transparently run Amiga programs.
  • »29.07.21 - 23:17
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    pikewerfer
    Posts: 29 from 2021/7/9
    Quote:

    Zetec-s wrote:
    You've reached the same point that we all do after using MorphOS, the need for speed!

    Hence, why I picked up a G5 after starting with a MacMini.

    MorphOS and particularly Wayfarer are so good, you just know that with a JIT Java implementation and more modern hardware it really would be able to be a proper daily driver, rather than a weekend bit of fun.


    That's just it! Being a newbie here, I can honestly say that this OS is so much fun and impressed me with its slick, cool design, and just awesome features. BUT - to turn it into the machine I boot every morning, I need speed, power - and a great cutting edge browser. The BB 4CPU board is $2,048.28. I would definitely pay this to get a modern MorphOS machine! (I would need some time to get the money saved up - but hey!).

    Now, I do understand that Amiga applications are important to a lot of people. To a newbie like me, they are not that important. I'd rather have power, speed, browser. :-)

    I work as a Scrum PO (amongst other things), my experience has been that a good team can definitely find ways to get there once one defines a goal. Being the new guy, I am still unsure what the goal of the community is?

    Have a legacy system to support Amiga apps - is that the main focus?
    Or port it to new, faster machines to go next level - is that something that many people want? Or are Zetec-s and myself a minority?
    Or, if there is a fair balance between those two options - would there be a possible compromise? Maybe two different builds of MorphOS?

    Another question would be budget & commitment - I strongly assume that most (if not all) devs are doing this as a hobby. How much money would we be able to raise to get new hardware for dev purposes? Let's assume we get some BB machines - how many stories can we allocate to which developers? What would the commitment be? Who does sprint planning?

    Oh, and finally - sorry for being so nosy and curious - if I am going on everybody's nerves, it is totally ok to tell me to shut up and let it be :-D
    Mac Mini 1.25 GHZ, 1 GB RAM, MorphOS 3.15
  • »30.07.21 - 08:09
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11471 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I am still unsure what the goal of the community is?

    The "community" is far from a homogeneous mass. Everybody has his/her own ideas of what should become of MorphOS in the future. What's important to understand though is that MorphOS is not an open source project. It's closed source so only the MorphOS team decides what will become of it.

    > Have a legacy system to support Amiga apps - is that the main focus?

    Kind of. I'd say that the main focus of MorphOS on Power(PC) has been to incorporate as many modern features as possible without breaking the Amiga application compatibility. So far, there has been made no change or improvement that breaks the Amiga application compatibility that was introduced in the very first public MorphOS release 21 years ago.

    > Or port it to new, faster machines to go next level

    Thing is, either the Amiga compatibility is kept, then even when porting MorphOS to new, faster Power(PC) machines like the Blackbird, MorphOS won't be able to address more than 2 GiB RAM and use more than 1 CPU core (or 1 hardware thread of a CPU core), among other restrictions imposed by the AmigaOS API compatibility (like lack of memory protection, which btw is one reason that MorphOS feels so fast), ...or the Amiga compatibility is abandoned, then everything is possible (64-bit, SMP, memory protection), and porting MorphOS to AMD64/x64/x86-64 makes more sense than keeping it on Power(PC) for obvious reasons.
    Plans for a modernized non-PPC MorphOS "NG" were first announced a decade ago. MorphOS on AMD64 was first shown 2 years ago. No public news since.

    > would there be a possible compromise? Maybe two different builds of MorphOS?

    That's a reasonable suggestion, but the manpower of the MorphOS team might be lacking for this. They are doing this in their spare time for virtually no payment.

    > Another question would be budget & commitment - I strongly assume
    > that most (if not all) devs are doing this as a hobby.

    Exactly, all of them.
  • »30.07.21 - 11:12
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    pikewerfer
    Posts: 29 from 2021/7/9
    @Andreas_Wolf - thanks for the feedback. If the Amiga compatibility is the big item here, then staying where we are seems to be the sensible option. Too bad. As I personally love the look & feel of the OS, but do not really need the old Amiga Apps. But I suppose I am a minority then.

    Let's wait and hope for the NG version. Which would seemingly solve my problems.

    Since all of these devs are doing it as a hobby, I might as well sign up and ask if I can help in any way. Like I said: I know about fonts, and I can do sprint planning.

    And hopefully, I can also supply some fonts for MorphOS, working on that.
    Mac Mini 1.25 GHZ, 1 GB RAM, MorphOS 3.15
  • »30.07.21 - 12:20
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    pikewerfer
    Posts: 29 from 2021/7/9
    I am currently on vacation, therefore no news. Nut stay tuned, I have not forgotten. Will hopefully have something to report soon.
    Mac Mini 1.25 GHZ, 1 GB RAM, MorphOS 3.15
  • »06.08.21 - 06:59
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    pikewerfer
    Posts: 29 from 2021/7/9
    OK, I am back :-) Continuing my journey down the rabbit hole. I am currently looking for someone who can help me overclock this old Mac so I can get MorphOS to run faster. Having more power might decrease the issue of the browser just reacting too slow to really work with it.

    I have also talked to the head of our Type Department, and he is willing to give this a go (after some persuasion and reminding him of favors he owes me). So he will discuss this with Marketing - and we will hopefully get an OK for a font package being released for Morph-Users. YAY! I will let you know once I myself know more.

    Anyway, I now got my browser and my email client set up. Works fine. I am now looking for a good Word Processor. Morpheus is cool - but way too buggy. Any tips? I read that Scriba is good?

    BTW - how can I make sure that new windows that open are on top?
    Mac Mini 1.25 GHZ, 1 GB RAM, MorphOS 3.15
  • »17.08.21 - 11:41
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 2539 from 2003/3/5
    From: Canada
    I'd be weary of overclocking a PowerPC. Make sure the cooling works good or you'll end up with a dead CPU.

    Windows should normally always open on top, unless an app explicitly wants to prevent this. You'd have to provide more details about what's going on. A video perhaps?
  • »17.08.21 - 12:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11471 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I am now looking for a good Word Processor. Morpheus is
    > cool - but way too buggy. Any tips? I read that Scriba is good?

    There's also Calimero by the same author as Scriba and Morpheus, who once touted it as the future Scriba replacement. I never tried any of them, though.
    Comment #22 had a recommendation of Folio.
  • »17.08.21 - 13:24
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    NewSense
    Posts: 1184 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK/GB
    @ pikewerfer - Initially I had great hopes for some of the projects by Carsten Siegner regarding his office software. However, after each and every program was released the bugs, and instability were then pointed out to Carsten, but they never seemed to get fixed. Any request for a more standardised approach to wordprocessor functionality, such as, use of Control or Alt, in combination with other keypresses, to jump from one word to the next or highlight text for deleting or copying/cutting, and other quite standard features then Carsten didn't change his approach (his prerogative - his program) along with the bugs that he didn't fix, new program, after next new program, more instability, new bugs, all never getting fixed, until the next new buggy program was released.

    I then realised that I was wasting my time expecting any of the bugs or non-standard features to be modified to a more standardised feature set, and I rarely waste my time trying them out as they more often than not just end up freezing or crashing MorphOS.

    As Andreas Wolf mentioned I like Folio, but I am not sure where Andre Siegel is currently positioned with its successor, as Folio has a few issues in that it saves RTF but can't load it, and I've not found it too successful at saving RTF anyway. You can save PDFs quite successfully, but even its own native document format has its own nuances and problems, well that's what I found. However, I like the idea/concept and have hope that Andre Siegel will follow up the program with a better successor to Folio.

    For most of wordprocessing I use PageStream v4 Pro (Classic Amiga version - 68k) which runs using "Trance" the built-in 68k emulator for such software and it runs fairly stably. It also offers features of fonts that you just don't get with basically any other MorphOS program, along with it being fully-featured DTP software, and there is hope of a MorphOS native version 5 still being worked on. :-)

    Sadly, most wordprocessor packages that were part of Classic Amiga haven't been updated to MorphOS, and is one side of MorphOS that is lacking. Some users still rely on Final Writer, but recently for me it refuses to start correctly, and WordWorth has issues that make it unsuitable. There was a chance that Final Writer would see a new native version for MorphOS, but this has been left 'hanging' as far as I know. There certainly has not been any headway in news as to its completion of recent months.

    There was a chance that Libre Office would make it to Amiga systems, but this has currently not materialised, certainly not for MorphOS.

    I don't like 'cloud' software, but I believe Google Docs works OK. I tried it when OWB was initially capable of using the features, but as I don't trust 'cloud' data storage I haven't used it since.

    Folio uses OWB but locally as the interface for writing/saving documents to your own local system data storage, that's why I like it, as that seems like a great way of utilising the advanatges of a modern web-browser for wordprocessing/DTP.

    I'm not sure what you meant by . . .

    Quote:

    BTW - how can I make sure that new windows that open are on top?

    Do you mean new screens or new programs that you start on Ambient, or just system or HDD directory/folder windows? Or something completely different? :-?

    If you mean a new program like Morpheus (if you're brave enough to run it) then you can always open it on its own separate screen - using MUI Prefs options, if you've enough VRAM, which on a 32MB GFX system like your MacMini 1.25GHz might be a bit of a 'stretch', unless you don't use 'Enhanced Display' option.
    MacMini 1.5GHz,10,2,64MB VRAM,1GB,Airport, Bluetooth,A1016 Keyboard,T-RB22 Mouse,DVD-RW-DL+CD-RW,Iomega MiniMax,Belkin 6 port 3 x Firewire/3 x, USB2, MorphOS 3.12, Mac OSX 10.4/10.5, A1138+A1139 PwrBk MOS v3.12,Model 5,8/5,9, & PowerMac G5 2.3GHz(DP)
  • »18.08.21 - 03:40
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    pikewerfer
    Posts: 29 from 2021/7/9
    @Andreas - thanks, I will test both Calimero and Scriba and Folio.

    @jadadcaps - how would I make a video grabbing the screen?

    So what I am currently seeing is:

    Scenario A: I open Morpheus. I then open WORK. The window for WORK stays behind Morpheus. Since I double-clicked on WORK after I opened Morpheus, I would expect the WORK window to be in front of Morpheus.

    Scenario B: I close Morpheus. Nothing happens. I then notice that there is a small window behind Morpheus saying "Quit the program? OK or CANCEL". This window should be in front of Morpheus, right?

    Concerning overclocking - I was told that overclocking the Mac mini from 1.25 to 1.5 would work with the cooling provided with the Mac mini. I am willing to try it - provided I can find someone to do it for me. :-)
    Mac Mini 1.25 GHZ, 1 GB RAM, MorphOS 3.15
  • »18.08.21 - 12:50
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1810 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    pikewerfer wrote:
    Scenario A: I open Morpheus. I then open WORK. The window for WORK stays behind Morpheus. Since I double-clicked on WORK after I opened Morpheus, I would expect the WORK window to be in front of Morpheus.

    Scenario B: I close Morpheus. Nothing happens. I then notice that there is a small window behind Morpheus saying "Quit the program? OK or CANCEL". This window should be in front of Morpheus, right?


    Does this happen with all programs or just with Morpheus? If it happens only with Morpheus, maybe it has "always on top" window and you should complain to Carsten ;)
  • »18.08.21 - 19:22
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    NewSense
    Posts: 1184 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK/GB
    Quote:

    pikewerfer wrote: Scenario A: I open Morpheus. I then open WORK. The window for WORK stays behind Morpheus. Since I double-clicked on WORK after I opened Morpheus, I would expect the WORK window to be in front of Morpheus.

    Have you got System> Settings> IControl> Hotkeys> Active Window: To Front (double mouse_leftpress) active/commented?

    I also have Alt-Tab utility available, so by using those keys (like MS Windows) you can swap the current window to any other one of the your inactive wndows to become the active one by however many number of windows you have active you need to cycle through to become the one you want to be the active window.
    Quote:

    pikewerfer wrote: Scenario B: I close Morpheus. Nothing happens. I then notice that there is a small window behind Morpheus saying "Quit the program? OK or CANCEL". This window should be in front of Morpheus, right?

    Don't forget you are trying out one of the most "buggy" programs there is (IMHO), so many of the things you might rightfully expect to happen just don't, and you're lucky that you haven't had a crash with it when using it. :-( However, you're right it should be in the front, but using either Alt-Tab or clicking the left or right mouse button over the front-back icon in a window will give you other options to see any window that is still open to take whatever action you want to confirm/use/close - at least that should happen. ;-)
    Quote:

    pikewerfer wrote: Concerning overclocking - I was told that overclocking the Mac mini from 1.25 to 1.5 would work with the cooling provided with the Mac mini. I am willing to try it - provided I can find someone to do it for me. :-)

    I wish you luck finding someone to take on that challenge, and make a success of it. 8-)
    MacMini 1.5GHz,10,2,64MB VRAM,1GB,Airport, Bluetooth,A1016 Keyboard,T-RB22 Mouse,DVD-RW-DL+CD-RW,Iomega MiniMax,Belkin 6 port 3 x Firewire/3 x, USB2, MorphOS 3.12, Mac OSX 10.4/10.5, A1138+A1139 PwrBk MOS v3.12,Model 5,8/5,9, & PowerMac G5 2.3GHz(DP)
  • »18.08.21 - 19:29
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