MorphOS x86 I want this badly
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2710 from 2003/2/24
    I’ll answer myself, as I actually read what chainq wrote now:

    “Do not draw conclusions from the boot speed. It is a very early version, and it is throttled by debug logging in the background.”

    And indeed:

    “natively on AMD64”

    Still looking forward to more info though. Like is it true 64-bit? SMP?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.10.19 - 16:04
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Debaser
    Posts: 161 from 2005/7/12
    From: Syracuse, NY, USA
    Truly incredible and awesome! I can't wait to hear more about it as it progresses.
  • »12.10.19 - 16:22
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    eliot
    Posts: 560 from 2004/4/15
    Wow, Mos on amd64 with integrated gpu would be a real game changer.
    Having an up2date Webkit with Java script Jit and the system is usable again for daily business.
    Good to see that the Mos devs going to amd64 instead of arm.

    [ Edited by eliot 12.10.2019 - 16:56 ]
    regards
    eliot
  • »12.10.19 - 16:26
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 215 from 2015/8/23
    If it has memory protection, unix compatybility and good drivers, it may be usable.
    Otherwise it will end in vb.
  • »12.10.19 - 16:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    eliot
    Posts: 560 from 2004/4/15
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    If it has memory protection, unix compatybility and good drivers, it may be usable.
    Otherwise it will end in vb.



    Well the kernel has already memory protection. Within the ABox it won’t be possible.
    There needs to be a new box and new api.
    ixemul is already there, but better posix support would make conversions of
    existing software more easy.

    [ Edited by eliot 12.10.2019 - 17:30 ]
    regards
    eliot
  • »12.10.19 - 16:45
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  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 417 from 2003/8/18
    Also:

    Quote:


    @cact00s:
    Nice! Again well done! What about compatibility with old MC68k software ? I guess it will be done throughout UAE ?

    @chainq:
    No. It runs the same 68k and PowerPC binaries as the current public MorphOS. Yes, native software is also possible, but I cannot speak regarding any extra feature set.

    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »12.10.19 - 16:47
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  • MorphOS Developer
    bigfoot
    Posts: 409 from 2003/4/11
    Just quickly popping in to mention a few things...

    ... Boot-up speed is not indicative of general performance.

    It had up till now been running on some older AMD64 hardware at home that I could neither bring along nor repurchase, so I bought this brand new system and still needed to port the existing MorphOS-on-AMD64 to this newer hardware. I literally only finished the port to this specific hardware enough to boot to Ambient this morning while at the show, and the whole boot-up process is full of debug code and debug output that makes booting very slow.

    If you discount the relatively slow AMD64 BIOS startup, and the relatively slow network booting that I'm doing, then once the debug code and debug output is removed, the actual MorphOS bootup process is as fast as you'd expect it to be.

    ... This is not a finished product.

    It's more a demo of some components of a future MorphOS NG system, in particular the new kernel that will power it as well as the PowerPC emulation that will ensure compatibility with existing software. So for now it's just a fun demo, please don't interpret it as more than that.

    Let me just make this clear: This is basically a demo that's made up of components that are being developed with the goal of eventually reaching MorphOS NG. Not everything is there yet, but with what's there, it was possible to build this demo.

    ... AMD64 is a CPU architecture, not a specific CPU

    Just because this seems to cause confusion from time to time. AMD64 is the name of the 64 bit CPU architecture commonly used in PCs. GNU calls the same CPU architecture "x86_64" and Microsoft calls it "x64". Although this hardware is indeed AMD hardware, it's not necessarily tied to AMD.

    ... What is "native"? :D

    The kernel that powers this system is a new kernel written by yours truly. In the demo system on display here, it is (of course) running as 100% native AMD64 code and, yes, in 64 bit mode. The kernel also runs on both PPC32 and PPC64, and again as native 64 bit code on the latter.

    The current demo system - and may I remind you that this is just a demo - runs a mixture of native AMD64 code and existing PowerPC code.
    I rarely log in to MorphZone which means that I often miss private messages sent on here. If you wish to contact me, please email me at [username]@asgaard.morphos-team.net, where [username] is my username here on MorphZone.
  • »12.10.19 - 17:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2710 from 2003/2/24
    @Leo

    That’s strange. It would mean that not only has a AMD64 version of 68k Trance been developed, but also a version translating PPC binaries. I don’t believe that really. Seems like a lot of work, and for questionable gains. It doesn’t seem plausible to try retaining binary compatibility with a 32-bit big endian platform on 64-bit little endian hardware. Besides, it was said back when AMD64 was first announced in 2011 already that work on 64-bit code would commence, and someone of the developers (bigfoot?) said here on Morphzone that it (a “MorphOS 4.0” or what it will be called) wouldn’t even be source code compatible (although requirements of modifications to code would be kept to a minimum). A migration to AMD64 would be a great opportunity to move on from the 31-bit A-box binary compatibility. Like AROS.

    I think there is some confusion here. Maybe it has something to do with it actually being MorphOS 3.12 (version number seen in the video) compiled for AMD64, and not actually the new “NG” version?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.10.19 - 17:31
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1341 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @takemehomegrandma

    Please read the comment posted right before yours :)
  • »12.10.19 - 17:36
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11629 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > PowerPC emulation [...] will ensure compatibility with existing software. [...] The current
    > demo system [...] runs a mixture of native AMD64 code and existing PowerPC code.

    Very interesting. How is the endianness difference handled?
  • »12.10.19 - 17:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2710 from 2003/2/24
    @bigfoot

    Thanks for the info, and thanks for doing the demo as well! Impressive! :-)


    Quote:

    bigfoot wrote:

    So for now it's just a fun demo, please don't interpret it as more than that.


    Got it! :-)


    Quote:

    This is basically a demo that's made up of components that are being developed with the goal of eventually reaching MorphOS NG.


    It would be interesting to hear about what this will be? The ambitions and goals, broadly speaking at least. Please? ;-)


    Quote:

    The kernel that powers this system is a new kernel written by yours truly. In the demo system on display here, it is (of course) running as 100% native AMD64 code and, yes, in 64 bit mode. The kernel also runs on both PPC32 and PPC64, and again as native 64 bit code on the latter.

    The current demo system - and may I remind you that this is just a demo - runs a mixture of native AMD64 code and existing PowerPC code.


    So the Amiga binary compatibility will remain? Will this mean that the whole MorphOS NG will have a 31-bit addressing limitation, single core, etc? Or that you are actually developing new stuff outside the “A-box”? If so, how will new and old stuff work together? Like applications, drivers and other resources on either sides of the box wall, how will they interact?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.10.19 - 18:06
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Georg
    Posts: 90 from 2004/4/7
    Well it obviously will be similar as multiple running instances of AROS hosted. With "outside" compositor of each of the instances' windows/screen bitmaps to make it look like it is one single "thing". This way endianess or 32 or 64 bitness of the single instances can be mixed however you like.
  • »12.10.19 - 18:30
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  • MDW
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    MDW
    Posts: 358 from 2003/7/26
    From: Wroclaw/Poland
    I can't believe! 😲 We have shadow of the future!
    MOSTeam rules! 👍
  • »12.10.19 - 19:30
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  • Moderator
    Develin
    Posts: 100 from 2003/4/19
    From: Karlstad, Sweden
    Awesome news, so sad I couldn't make it to Neuss, but this news compensated for that sadness.
    Well done MorphOS Team!
  • »12.10.19 - 20:27
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vulture
    Posts: 179 from 2008/2/4
    From: Greece
    Wow wow wow!
  • »12.10.19 - 20:42
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 817 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    What's this "420 MHz Cyberstorm" thing?

    https://kato.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Amiga34/DSC06834.JPG

    604e only went up to 266 MHz. Is it a typo of 240MHz?

    [ Edited by KennyR 12.10.2019 - 20:50 ]
  • »12.10.19 - 20:49
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2071 from 2003/2/24
    The way I understood it (aka sure way to be wrong ;) )

    Quark and basic drivers compiled for AMD64

    Everything else still running as 32(31)bit PPC code with all it limitations.

    Bootscreen stated 1GB of RAM (quite sure there was more on the mobo).

    System is booted via network as no massstorage was available (there was an NVM module on the board)

    Basic PCIe GFX card as the onboard GFX isn't supported yet.

    AMD64 code can access the ABox API, but must do so in bigendian.


    So it is indeed in alot of way like Amithlon only that instead of using a Linux kernel it build on top of a ported Quark.
    Just like with Amithlon all limitations of Amiga/MorphOS do apply but one can run native code if it deal the endians in the correct. For Amithlon there was a special GCC build that created bigendian x86 code, but that was to limited/incomplete to be a way forward.

    Next step(s) should be writing more drivers to make a full "native" boot possible.

    Once that has been done there will be the question how to go for multi-core and full 64bit and here I see 2 scenarios:

    1: Throw away most of our API and start fresh resulting in a massive rift, but also in a "modern" system within a reasonable timeframe

    2: Keep the ABox and expand/enable the QBox so that ABox apps can spawn x64 tasks to be scheduled over all core.
    This pretty much what happened with PowerUP or the original way to run x86 code on Amithlon.
    Later on one could add more APIs to QBox till it becomes a full OS and ABox just a legacy box.


    Still not holding my breath (or fa##s).
  • »12.10.19 - 20:51
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  • MorphOS Developer
    zukow
    Posts: 620 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    604ev supports 400Mhz, most of PowerPC board here in Poland are upgraded by stachu (including my 603 to 333mhz), some people have 400 604 and it works without problems.
  • »12.10.19 - 21:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2031 from 2003/6/4
    Wow - this is awesome! I was close to giving up hopes on MorphOS x64.

    Hopefully we will get a bit more info about what the design of this actually is. I still favour the idea I lined out a few years ago: New MorphOS x64 im LE - similar to current MorphOS witm Ambient etc., but modernized. Plus an underlying BE ABOX that can execute 68k code and x64 flip code (like done with the saif Amithlon GCC). PowerPC emulation would run also in this box. And all that nicely integrated into MorphOSx64 LE (shared clipboard, filesystem, pipes etc)

    We'll see. And I am rather confident that the team eventually will implent something nice and useful. Their track record in this regard is preatty good and clean - thumbs up!

    Shame I am too tight on time to come to Neuss myself - it's not far away, but I need to do some work tomorrow that should be done on Monday...
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »12.10.19 - 21:21
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Chain-Q
    Posts: 343 from 2003/10/12
    From: 1 AU, EU, DE/HU
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    604e only went up to 266 MHz. Is it a typo of 240MHz?


    Although it is off-topic in this topic, it isn't a typo. The card in question had a dead PowerPC chip, and then a few years ago it was sent to Stanislaw Sedlak, a well-known "PPC repair guy" in Poland who specializes in repairing these cards with dead chips, and he brought it back to life by replacing the CPU on it. (Among other repairs he did on the card.) It sports a later, 400Mhz version of the PowerPC 604 chip now (the 604ev a.k.a "Mach5"? I'm unsure.), which is pin and voltage compatible with the CyberstormPPC card, and it was then overclocked to 420Mhz.

    This chip was actually manufactured as a smaller process, therefore it dissipates less heat, so at 420Mhz this thing actually runs much cooler than the original 200-233Mhz chips, which really helps with the longevity of these old CPU cards. It is a benchmark-beast when it comes to number crunching, but in real life it's sadly still somewhat handicapped, as the RAM interface on the CSPPC really keeps it back at these speeds.

    Here is a closeup photo of the CPU on this very CSPPC: https://twitter.com/chainq/status/811276581226344449/photo/1

    (BTW, this system was already presented in this form, with the same card, at Amiga32.)
    [.PegasosII/G4.:.Efika.:.Amiga2000/060.]
    [.Free Pascal Compiler MorphOS Port.]
    [.Hosting AmigaSpirit.hu.]
  • »12.10.19 - 23:23
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11629 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > 604e only went up to 266 MHz.

    604e on stock Phase5/DCE boards only went up to 233 MHz.
  • »13.10.19 - 01:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11629 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > AMD64 code can access the ABox API, but must do so in bigendian. So it is indeed in alot
    > of way like Amithlon only that instead of using a Linux kernel it build on top of a ported
    > Quark. Just like with Amithlon all limitations of Amiga/MorphOS do apply but one can run
    > native code if it deal the endians in the correct. For Amithlon there was a special GCC build
    > that created bigendian x86 code, but that was to limited/incomplete to be a way forward.

    This reminds me of a statement by the father of MorphOS:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7183&start=261 (bottom of #262)

    ;-)
  • »13.10.19 - 01:42
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