I sincerely hope that this thread does not generate any bad feelings, or ugly comments, as that is surely not my intent. So, please at least try to stay objective and factual with your comments. Here is/are the question(s);

What are the Pros and Cons of using the following OSes for daily computing needs:

MorphOS
AmigaOS4
AmigaOS3.x
Linux (whatever flavor)
Windows
MacOSX

Comment on any combination of the above OSes, but please at least include MorphOS and one other OS for comparison. I will be using the answers posted here to help me provide answers to AmiWest Show attendees, who ask me why I prefer MorphOS, or how other users are using MorphOS as a daily use system. I will appreciate well thought out answers to this thread, as they will be very helpful to me in preparing for the upcoming show in about 2-1/2 months.

Optionally, if you wish to also include how, or what changes you would suggest to improve MorphOS, I would be interested in reading those suggestions. Thanks in advance for your answers.

Having used all of them at one point or another, I should be able to answer this question well.

Windows

Pros:
Loads of first-party and third-party support and applications.

Cons:
Contains Microsoft spyware in Windows 10 that can't be removed. The company acts like you are only renting your computer.

Macos X

Pros:
Closed hardware means heavily tested configurations are available to those who color inside the lines. Well supported OS for said closed platform.

Cons:
For those who color outside the lines and get an after-market graphics card from nVidia, Apple fights you every step of the way. Company makes you WISH you had rented the machine because it will be obsolete within 5 years.

Linux

Pros:
Gives new life to obsolete hardware like those cast-off from Windows and Macos users. Is basically many operating systems in one depending on the GUI library you choose. Third-party drivers for many peripherals.

Cons:
If you don't cherry-pick your GUI library apps you end up with multiple GUI libraries installed, making you need modern amounts of memory, you may not be able to run it on obsolete hardware from Apple or an old PC after all. All drivers are essentially minimally tested third-party drivers or may be closed source if you get first-party ones.

AmigaOS 4

Pros:
If you are lucky enough to have a supported Radeon HD graphics card, you can get an add-on set of Warp3D Nova drivers that support OpenGL ES 2 and GLSL shader support with it.

Cons:
Hasn't been developed by first-party developers for years. Less software than AmigaOS 3 has. Is slower than MorphOS and boots as slowly as a cut-down Linux disrto because it uses React GUI toolkit but most applications use MUI.

MorphOS

Pros:
Better development library stack. Faster, more streamlined design. As a result of the powerful development tools, has first-party GUI apps like Flow Studio, Git and is getting an up-to-date browser and emailer.

Cons:
No shader support yet in its graphics drivers. WebGL will require OpenGL ES 2 support so that can't be supported yet.

AmigaOS 3

Pros:
Supports many old hardware-banging titles that milked the 68k Amiga models for all they were worth that require emulation on all the others. Can impress programmers with ability to write code that takes 1-2% of a GiB of RAM.

Cons:
Graphics card support is a third-party add-on. USB is a thrd-party add-on. TCP/IP stack... well, you get the idea. WHDLoad is required to get most older software to run because hardware-banging code is not portable. Lacks decent support for its own chipset, making hardware-banging a necessity.

I could go on but this is a general gist of things. I look forward to seeing your comments.

@ Sam

Good answer. You might have wanted to stress that OS4 Warp3D Nova was created by the hardware vendor instead of the OS vendor, but that's nothing new in the PC world.

Most of the work done recently on our video card drivers was done by one man (who curiously enough gets second billing in the credits).

MorphOS and AmigaOS4:
The Pros: To use the browser, you can enter in almost all sites without risk to get one virus like with MacOS, Linux and Windows. And they are funny and different to the rest of OSs.
Cons: We haven't Office, or Libre Office and a good browser to see videos, and we have use old hardware or expensive exclusive hardware like X5000.
Also we haven't the last games of programs but this problem has the Linux and MacOS users.

The AmigaOS3.x:
Pros: Play the classic games. The better computer emulator WinUAE.
Cons: It is old to work, Internet, play videos etc. it has old programs to work.

MAcOS:
Pros: New expensive hardware.
Cons: New expensive hadware and expensive software.

Linux:
Pros: Free OSs and software and run in all hardware and easy to use and update.
Cons: It is not Amiga OS. It hasn't the games and programs like Windows, or last games.

Windows:
Pros: Run in all Pc machines and much software and games free or paid. The last games.
Cons: Microsoft. Bill Gates.
The OS is of paid and the updates can will be a bomb and run out of computer with the classic blue screen.

> AmigaOS 4 [...] Hasn't been developed by first-party developers for years.

Regular amigans.net readers know that there are bugfixes and other enhancements that have been and are being added constantly to the OS4 code base and are being used by OS4 beta testers. Without an official release these bugfixes and enhancements won't reach regular OS4 users.

> AmigaOS 4 [...] boots as slowly as a cut-down Linux disrto

At least it boots faster than a full-blown Linux distro ;-)

> because it uses React GUI toolkit but most applications use MUI.

I don't think the ReAction GUI is a possible cause for slow booting (or perceived overall slowness). You can easily install OS4-native MUI on OS4 and run MUI applications. By doing so, OS4 won't become any faster in running or booting, though.

> MorphOS [...] has first-party GUI apps like [...] Git

Git with GUI for MorphOS?

> AmigaOS 3 [...] Can impress programmers with ability
> to write code that takes 1-2% of a GiB of RAM.

10-20 MiB RAM is opulent for many OS3 setups :-)

> TCP/IP stack...

3.9 came with AmiTCP :-)

Quote:

Care to explain ? You probably seem to have more MorphOS inside knowledge than me ... :)

> MAcOS:
> Pros: New expensive hardware.
> Cons: New expensive hadware [...]

;-)

> Windows: [...]
> Cons: [...] Bill Gates.

https://news.microsoft.com/2020/03/13/microsoft-announces-change-to-its-board-of-directors/

Quote:

That's funny, because I don't ask for any info from you guys anymore, you're a tight lipped bunch.

I'll PM you.

Sorry, duplicate post.

[ Edited by Jim 07.08.2020 - 10:06 ]

Also other AmigaOS4.x
Cons: You have pay for 3d drivers besides the OS4, plus the Enchaced pack to can update the system, and pray for you have paid, 3D drivers, update program and OS4, don't come back to relaunch with the other name or the same but with a new price.
AmigaOS4 is like the MacOS only the money is important.
Also the 3D drivers don't guarantee you can play 3D games, because always you have the guilt, you have a 3D graphic card unsupported, you have old drivers and you need buy the news, etc.


[ Editado por Templario 07.08.2020 - 16:34 ]

Re:Git

Git is still command-line based but at least MorphOS still has Git. OS4 has a cut-down, incomplete version of SimpleGit and OS3 has no Git support. As for GUI, perhaps FlowStudio can someday have Git integration. (Pretty please?)

Quote:

The shadow from uncle Bill is very long....

Are there any reasonable UIs for git one could base on though? I haven't seen anything that could truly replace command line.

> AmigaOS4 is like the MacOS only the money is important.

macOS major release updates have been free since 10.9 in 2013.

Quote:

Uffss, well, worse you put it to the OS4....

Quote:

Ummm... VS Codium on Linux has a nice Git integration. It also uses OAuth 2.0 encoding so you don't have to keep entering and reentering your password.

Some quick opinios without thinking too much... just what happens to pop in my mind now :)

MorphOS
Pros:
+ Continues the Amiga legacy
+ Is really an improvement and steps forward in many areas (MUI improvements, Ambient, screenbar modules, IControl/configuration options, many new internal/bundled things, etc etc that eliminates the need for 3rd party patches and hacks pretty well)
+ The most stable and polished Amiga compatible OS
+ Great amount of bundled software in the OS distribution
+ Good support with constant updates, developers are available and close to the community

Cons:
- Userbase could be bigger, it's kind of "hidden gem" in the Amiga world
- Lacks certain software and developers
- Affordable hardware is getting old, although it's still ok in most ways


AmigaOS4
Pros:
+ Continues the Amiga legacy
+ Keeps the original "Workbench" feeling well with the consistent and polished visuals, while still improving the OS and software
+ Some more enthusiastic users supporting commercial developments than on other NG Amiga platforms

Cons:
- Userbase could be bigger
- Lacks certain software and developers
- Could make some bigger steps forward from the original AmigaOS design, keeps too much the original "Workbench" feeling and features while not adding enough new functionality
- A bit mess with its components (Amiga vs. Linux style solutions, breaking the legacy here and there) and GUI toolkits (ReAction vs. MUI... vs. Cygnix/Qt/etc)
- Unofficial MUI branch isn't quite up to MorphOS MUI by stability and features
- Expensive hardware that is hard to get due small batches and quite non-existent used computer market
- No official updates in ages and nobody knows any real development plans, fragmenting the development because 3rd party software developers have started to replace the official OS components


AmigaOS3.x
Pros:
+ It's the Amiga OS and many will just want it for the nostalgia
+ Good for gaming and demoscene
+ Biggest userbase of Amiga compatibles

Cons:
- Is no good for other than gaming/demos, has totally dropped from utility software usage (internet, media, etc)
- OS is really showing its age and isn't fun for real use after MorphOS or OS4, you can't even hack it on the same level anymore and isn't capable for anything more modern anymore
- Real hardware is too slow for major improvements and emulation setups still lack with OS features, GUI toolkits, stability, etc
- Not enough competent developers or rights for trying any bigger moves, just for some minor polishing at the current level


AROS (x86/hosted experience)
Pros:
+ Available on many and common architectures
+ Free and open source

Cons:
- Despite the pros, its userbase is still small and inactive even in the Amiga scale
- There isn't a polished distribution to attract users
- Isn't binary compatible with 68k Amiga software and doesn't have compatible enough components for re-compiling all the stuff in practise either
- Zune is far from being MUI compatible (many features aren't implemented or crash directly if a programmer tries to use them, many features have glitches)
- It's still lacking some basic stuff and is the most unstable Amiga compatible OSdespite being available for the longest time
- Doesn't have proper desktop program built-in, Wanderer is way too basic
- Development seems to be quite "random"


Linux (whatever flavor)
Pros:
- Pretty good software base
- Stable
- Big userbase
- Available for any device
- Free

Cons:
- I love Amiga/MorphOS way of doing many things, even though Linux can be customized with hard work, but you never get everything I want
- Default installations and desktops are so clumsy.. why there aren't proper filemanagement programs, for example?
- Many GUI toolkits etc make it so inconsistent in use
- It's easy to fail to upgrade distros to new main versions if I haven't keep them always up to date or do that in time...
- Many things need manual work in hard way to get something to work


Windows
Pros:
- Huge software and user base
- Pretty easy and OK usability

Cons:
- Still missing lots of stuff from Amiga/MorphOS usability to make it more fluent
- Has still some weird quirks even this day... for example windows that get stuck from moving if there's some other window from the same program open etc...
- User can't tinker the system and manage all issues there might come... I've lately have lots of headache by Windows login issues on several setups with Win10. It has suddenly stopped accepting passwords, or just stopped giving the password prompt at all, so my setup went totally useless, because I couldn't even try to login into it anymore. So, I just can't trust it fully...
- The usual Microsoft stuff you all know...


MacOSX
Pros:
- Pretty solid and consistent system
- Pretty good software selection

Cons:
- Not much room for personal taste, configuring usability options is very limited. No way to get my Amiga/MorphOS preferred ways of doing things.
- Expensive hardware even as used


[ Edited by jPV 14.08.2020 - 17:36 ]

@jpv

Regarding Aros I do not share your "cons" because they are simply untrue

- Despite the pros, its userbase is still small and inactive even in the Amiga scale

That is true but changes hopefully now (with being official OS of Vampire)

- There isn't a polished distribution to attract users

I have a distribution for a long time, last versions are imitating 3.1 (with lots of additions). I do not share your view. And you have RTG, network, SDCard-Support and USB out of the box.

- Isn't binary compatible with 68k Amiga software and doesn't have compatible enough components for re-compiling all the stuff in practise either

That is not true at all. I use this feature for a long time

- Zune is far from being MUI compatible (many features aren't implemented or crash directly if a programmer tries to use them, many features have glitches)

Zune certainly is by far not perfect but you can easily use MUI

- It's still lacking some basic stuff and is the most unstable Amiga compatible OSdespite being available for the longest time

I do not know what features you mean here. I also do not share your view of unstability here. It is true that not everything is implemented fully 3.1 compatible. That is the strange thing about AROS, offering lots of sophisticated features and at the same time lacking some basics. But compatibility is pretty high despite that.

- Doesn't have proper desktop program built-in, Wanderer is way too basic

Yes but there is Magellan (both for 68k and X86)

- Development seems to be quite "random"

Yes behind "core" AROS development there was never anybody feeling responsible for the "package". That is different now on 68k

[ Editiert durch OlafSch 14.08.2020 - 10:42 ]

> Regarding Aros I do not share your "cons"

You shouldn't share his "pros" regarding AROS either because AROS/m68k surely isn't "Available on many and common architectures" ;-)

@Andreas_Wolf

I have no problem with it

the list of "cons" was by far longer than the list of "pros" in this case

But if he talks about "Aros" in general he must be precise about what he exactly means ;)

Regarding MorphOS, it is not a "hidden gem" because for sure everybody knows about it already. The problem is that it is propably "too modern" (or different from 3.1) for some and that others want "amiga" stickers on it. For the 68k community it is not interesting at all. That will (in my view) not change in future.

[ Editiert durch OlafSch 14.08.2020 - 10:38 ]

> if he talks about "Aros" in general he must be precise
> about what he exactly means ;)

Indeed, there're some fundamental differences between AROS/m68k and AROS/everythingelse, especially in terms of compatibility.

> MorphOS [...] is not a "hidden gem" because for sure
> everybody knows about it already.

Every once in a while I come across people who ask on the WWW about which recent OS to try on their old PPC Mac just to have some fun with it. My impression is that most of them were not aware of MorphOS before being told about it. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that they will like it.

> For the 68k community it is not interesting at all.
> That will (in my view) not change in future.

Yes, I also doubt that there will ever be MorphOS for m68k :-)

Quote:
I think jPV speak about 26 years of AROS being on the market and not really having changed much.
Quote:
I didn't know AROS (in genral, and not only 68k-AROS) was binary compatible. Since when? Does it only have an 68k emulator or also a JIT? I think I have seen Amiga Writer or Art Effect once on a screenshot but I must have forgot about that.
Quote:
I did not know you can install MUI on AROS (not only 68k-AROS). Wherre is the download packege for x86 or ARM or PPC? I did not find it.
Quote:
AROS still delivers many crashes in daily work. Not really fun to play with it. Wouldn't it make sense to finally complete 3.1 compatibility after 26 years before starting "sophisticated" features? Which ones are they by the way? I haven't found some until today. I don't see a reason for a sophisticated feature when the basic is still crashing here or there.
Quote:
There is also Scalos but both run on any Amiga type anyway, and the Wanderer is still lacking many basics. So this is no benefit of AROS. But maybe the AROS devs decided "DOpus is any way better so we don't need Wanderer any more". Maybe Wanderer should be removed from AROS to not have to use it any longer.
Quote:
68k-AROS is only a small part of AROS. It is not that the 68k actiivty brings the same benefit for all other architectures. So you cannot say that AROS in genreal is that far.

Quote:
same as you
Quote:
I think that's true. AROS community seems to be as much sticked to the Amiga OS3.1 condition and behaviour as OS4 community. they only chose different CPUs. This would explain the way of development of them all.

Quote:
Well... they weren't all untrue after all? :)

We will see how it goes with Vampire users. Vampire owners I know aren't particularly active or using it that much, they just like to get new hardware for the sake of it. I also have released many programs, which I thought would attract Vampire owners who want to do more serious computing than just gaming etc, but so far haven't got any feedback from them... so I'm not sure if there are people using Vampires for daily computing, which was the original question here.


Quote:
By being a polished distribution I didn't only mean by bundled software and features, but also how it looks visually and how well default configurations have been made. So far I haven't been that impressed with the AROS distributions I've seen. MorphOS, OS4, Windows, Mac, etc do look much more professional and more finished in every aspect. Themes, iconsets, overall consistency with GUIs and program configurations. Even some OS3 distributions like AmiKit do look better in this regard.


Quote:
AFAIK you'll have to use UAE based solution or run AROS on 68k system to run 68k binaries? UAE solution limits programs sandboxed and don't you lose communication with the rest of the system via ARexx etc then? This solution doesn't also work if you want to add 68k commands, libraries, drivers, datatypes, etc to your AROS system. I just wouldn't call it as proper 68k compatibility still.

And about re-compiling... try to re-compile, for example, MUI programs for AROS.. you'll have to do loots of modifications and work-arounds.

AROS 68k might be better in this regard, and as you noticed, my experiences are with x86/hosted versions, so I'll edit my original post to contain that information.


Quote:
AFAIK that's only possible with 68k MUI on AROS 68k and there isn't actual ports of MUI for AROS?

So, you can't say it's a generic option on AROS, and even then you're forced to use MUI 3.8 or newer unofficial MUI branch which has the same issues as on OS4 too, so a "con" still.


Quote:
At least the hosted version I've been using has been constantly crashing with certain programs which came with the distribution, even with some built-in commands don't act as they should or crash. Maybe some other versions are better in this regard, but that's my impression.


Quote:
Ok, sorry for that and I'll edit my post.


Quote:
That's not my impression. Only we who have been following the scene actively know it, but I constantly see people who have no idea about it. There are old Amiga users who pop up at Amiga IRC channels, who might have heard about OS4 or even AROS, but haven't heard about MorphOS. Not to talk about complete outsiders who want to take a look at Amiga world.. MorphOS is usually the last thing they'll find out. Heck, even people at some gamer/emulation oriented popular Amiga web forums seem to have difficulties to understand what MorphOS is. For example EAB seems to be full of igonrant people in this regard...


Quote:
The question in this thread was "What are the Pros and Cons of using the following OSes for daily computing needs". I don't think being "too modern" is a "con" when talking about daily computing.

@jpv

The title is "Pros and Cons using..." and nothing of daily use

OK and of course my comments are related to Aros 68k of course

If you would look at "daily use" then it is silly to compare anything amiga related with modern platforms like Windows and Mac (or Linux). Take only the huge software bases and development support.

By "polished" I thought of features, themes and icons are a matter of taste. I cannot say anything about that.

Aros 68k runs on both 68k real hardware (including Vampire) and UAE and amiga 68k software and aros can be mixed. Indeed it replaces the 3.1 components. On X86 it would run in UAE too. How much communication is possible between software environment in UAE and the host system is out of my knowledge. If running on 68k hardware or in UAE it is of course a normal 3.1 environment.

"So, you can't say it's a generic option on AROS, and even then you're forced to use MUI 3.8 or newer unofficial MUI branch which has the same issues as on OS4 too, so a "con" still."

That is more a con for MorphOS in my view. If there would have been interest MUI would have become a real standard on all platforms. Now there are lots of different and not compatible implementations.

"At least the hosted version I've been using has been constantly crashing with certain programs which came with the distribution, even with some built-in commands don't act as they should or crash. Maybe some other versions are better in this regard, but that's my impression."

I do not use hosted AROS myself so cannot say anything about it. On 68k it works very well.

"There are old Amiga users who pop up at Amiga IRC channels, who might have heard about OS4 or even AROS, but haven't heard about MorphOS."

Outsiders certainly... outsiders at highest have memories of A500 and similar. I doubt many know about the developments after Commodore went under. Then you should make more marketing for it ;). It is certainly a good OS, best PPC based amiganoid OS currently.

But still I doubt that many in current community are interested. Perhaps there is some potential outside but that is something I cannot judge.