MUI4 for OS4?
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11245 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > someone made some libellous and presumably false allegation against H&P.
    > Odd that it never went to court then if there was any substance to it.
    > [...] Various such allegations are always floating around the community
    > in regard to most Amiga-related companies. [...] I prefer to wait for
    > hard evidence before jumping to conclusions.

    Read there directly from the horse's mouth:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20050221085432/http://www.guru-group.fi/~too/amitcp.txt
    http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/amitcp392.txt
    http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2000-12-00114-EN.html

    > Should I therefore believe the allegations floating around about
    > Genesi stealing the AmigaOS 3.1 source code?

    You can easily deduce these allegations as nonsense (unless they involve a time machine in Genesi's possession):
    - MorphOS development start: 1998
    - initial MorphOS release: 2000
    - incorporation of Genesi: 2003

    > Perhaps this explains the lack of OS3.5/3.9 support in MOS

    There is an easier explanation:
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9641&start=28

    > it maybe be possible to acquire ReAction source from H&P or from the
    > original developers. [...] there seem to be only minor improvements
    > in the OS4 ReAction compared to the OS3.9 ReAction.

    I don't know about the ReAction enhancements in OS4, but licensing an old ReAction version for MorphOS would surely result in a situation similar to the current MUI situation, only with the two operating systems reversed.
  • »13.12.13 - 13:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1091 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38546&forum=14
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

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  • »24.12.13 - 20:49
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4939 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Wow, MUI, Odyssey, a little more work and they'll have....a slightly slower version of our OS (without Reggae, TinyGL, etc.).

    I thought we were the party accused of copying.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.12.13 - 21:02
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    guruman
    Posts: 455 from 2003/7/21
    As far as I can tell, it is just a fork of MUI. Our MUI4 (I'd say, to avoid confusion, the only MUI4) is version 4.2, copyrighted 2012 by Stefan Stunz. Their is 4.0, copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz. I'd also say that the internals of MUI4, which were completely and heavily rewritten, are completely different for this release. As far as I can tell, these are most of the functionalities of MUI4 needed for Odyssey and MPlayer built on top of MUI 3.9.
    As often happens, the usual inferior copy of MorphOS functionalities somebody else has to live with... ;-)

    But feel free to correct me.

    Kind regards,
    Andrea
  • »25.12.13 - 13:59
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4939 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    If this was Amiga.org or AmigaWorld someone would, then they would probably insult your penis size.
    But we tend to be above such silliness.

    Still, how is it again that we get accused of copying?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.12.13 - 14:48
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Jim

    I don't know about that. I think a lot of MorphOS users have a sadistic liking of downtalking AmigaOS 4 (like in the thread in question). You either keep pounding in your points to those people, or you try to be the bigger person. You can't have both.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
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    My MorphOS blog
  • »25.12.13 - 18:24
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1091 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    If this was Amiga.org or AmigaWorld someone would, then they would probably insult your penis size.
    But we tend to be above such silliness.

    Still, how is it again that we get accused of copying?


    Becoz it teh reeel Jim! ;)
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »25.12.13 - 18:39
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2673 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    guruman wrote:
    Their is 4.0, copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz.


    The only public stable (non-beta) version of MUI that existed back in 2006 was MUI 3. A few (2?) public betas of MUI 4 was released after that over a few years before it formally arived in MorphOS 2.0 in mid-2008.

    That the info screen of the OS4 "MUI4" says:
    (C) 1992-2006 Stefan Stuntz
    (C) 2006-2013 Thore Böckelmann, Jens Maus

    ...means that this is *NOT* the MUI4 that Stefan Stuntz spent a few years developing post 2006, it's something else, developed by some others. And to confirm this, itix heard from an OS4 beta tester that this is something Hyperion built themselves on top of the MUI3.9 they bundle with OS4.

    Quote:

    I'd also say that the internals of MUI4, which were completely and heavily rewritten, are completely different for this release.


    Of course, they are simply not there, since the internals in OS4 "MUI4" is MUI3.9!

    Quote:

    As far as I can tell, these are most of the functionalities of MUI4 needed for Odyssey and MPlayer built on top of MUI 3.9.


    Indeed, that seems exactly how this is. It's MUI 3.9 with selected custom written third party classes added, and a "MUI4" sticker slapped on. A "bastard fork", that will (as itix says) always be a little left behind because Hyperion must wait new MorphOS SDK to be released in order to implement changes to their development tree.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »25.12.13 - 19:06
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4939 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Well ain't that gonna start a shit storm with the OS4 community.
    Hey, they need to get over themselves.
    So they copied something.
    There's a long tradition of that in OS development, ask Bill Gates.

    And we appear to be providing the bulk of the funding for the Odyssey port (which, come on, is the reason for this development in the first place).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.12.13 - 20:07
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  • Moderator
    guruman
    Posts: 455 from 2003/7/21
    Quote:

    guruman wrote:
    I'd also say that the internals of MUI4, which were completely and heavily rewritten, are completely different for this release. As far as I can tell, these are most of the functionalities of MUI4 needed for Odyssey and MPlayer built on top of MUI 3.9.

    After some quick investigation, I have to say it appears code is based on an early snapshot of MUI4 beta rather than on MUI 3.9, so internals are less different than I originally thought. But for the rest it is still partially reverse engineering on top of old code.

    Kind regards,
    Andrea
  • »25.12.13 - 21:58
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4939 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    In any case, it appears to have its primary purpose in allowing our community's developers to throw more pearls before swine.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.12.13 - 00:16
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1193 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Jim,
    Quote:

    Well ain't that gonna start a shit storm with the OS4 community.

    ...or alternatively, MorphOS developers get the blame for not "just handing over" the code, that OS4 developers promised to their users without having any access to it.

    Hey, we could go RiscOS route here! MorphOS has MUI4, OS4 could set their version number as 5, while MorphOS team works on MUI6 etc.!
  • »26.12.13 - 11:04
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4939 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Or we could just let it go since the OS4 community will seek to turn this against us somehow.
    Let them do as they will.
    In order to continue to update, they will need to follow our lead.
    And if its inferior to our implementation, that just leaves us looking all the better.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.12.13 - 11:58
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Tom01
    Posts: 168 from 2009/9/20
    MUI4 for AOS4 is like casting perls to the swines.
    They should stick to their Reaction crap.
  • »26.12.13 - 13:53
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    rebraist
    Posts: 96 from 2011/4/6
    From: Naples, Italy
    Really don't understand this hatred.
    Mui was born on Commodore Amigas as an extension/enhancement to its operating system.
    So what's the problem if it runs on Amiga Os4?
    It runs, in an opensource-clone way in Aros, and I think it's a blessing the three camps share such a good framework!
    Stuntz's idea was a great one, even after twenty years, and hyperion paid for it.
    I own all three amigoid systems and it's a good thing to have a similar behaviour on all three platforms when you come to MUI.
    You write once and use the same code (or very similar one) on three platforms. Great!
    Mac Mini g4 1,5 mos 3.1 registered
    Powerbook g4 1,67 mos 3.1 unregistered
    Sam440 Os4.1.6
    Aros-Aros-Aros.
  • »26.12.13 - 14:39
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4939 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >"it's a good thing to have a similar behavior on all three platforms when you come to MUI."

    I'd agree that it is not worth worrying about and will benefit all.

    But our version has been enhanced since Stuntz worked on it.
    Claiming you have the same thing with a crude hack is annoying.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.12.13 - 15:45
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    eliyahu
    Posts: 67 from 2011/4/21
    @Jim

    do we know for certain the level of compatibility between MUI4 on AOS4 and MUI4 on MOS? i realize thore and jens couldn't have had access to the MOS sources, but i wonder the degree of compatibility at the API level. i do think, though, it should be made clear to my fellow AOS4 users that, at best, we have MUI4 4.0, not version 4.2 which is what i have on my MOS 3.3 installation.

    i will say i do like being able to configure things more easily under the "new" MUI4. i can make MUI applications "look" more like non-MUI applications on my AOS4 installation.

    -- eliyahu
  • »26.12.13 - 15:50
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4939 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    eliyahu wrote:
    @Jim

    do we know for certain the level of compatibility between MUI4 on AOS4 and MUI4 on MOS? ...

    -- eliyahu



    That is out of our hands.
    And really only concerns the users of OS4.
    Plus, they don't need the source to re-create how it works.
    Our developers didn't need OS3.1 source, just skill.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.12.13 - 16:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11245 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> do we know for certain the level of compatibility between MUI4 on AOS4
    >> and MUI4 on MOS?

    > That [...] really only concerns the users of OS4.

    ...which eliyahu belongs to, which in turn might explain why he is concerned ;-)

    > Plus, they don't need the source to re-create how it works.

    You *can* reach 100% compatibility in a reimplementation, yes, but that doesn't mean it has actually been achieved with the OS4 version of MUI4. The question about the compatibility level is a valid one, I think.
  • »26.12.13 - 21:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2673 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    do we know for certain the level of compatibility between MUI4 on AOS4 and MUI4 on MOS? i realize thore and jens couldn't have had access to the MOS sources


    Even if compatibility would indeed be an exact 100%, it won't be the same product (as you said yourself), so let's call it OS4-MUI4 or whatever and hope that the compatibility *is* an exact 100% so that we won't have a new OS4-SFS "bastard fork" situation (although the effects of this should be far lesser when it comes to something like MUI than SFS, especially for end-users for which it should be close to non-existent). So while the naming can be a bit provoking and/or confusing, let's not exaggerate the implications of it. And who knows, maybe this could result in some OS4 developers finally forgetting about the "Reaction" abomination once and for all, which could possibly benefit the rest of the "NG" world by increasing the possibilities of cross-porting of their apps, who knows?

    (Edit: Can't come to think of one single current OS4 Reaction app I'd want though, but maybe some future one? Perhaps?)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »26.12.13 - 22:33
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11245 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > hyperion paid for it

    ...or not:

    http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?post_id=86246#forumpost86246
    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?p=20422%23p20422
  • »18.01.14 - 18:50
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1091 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > hyperion paid for it

    ...or not:

    http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?post_id=86246#forumpost86246
    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?p=20422%23p20422


    So if I understand this correctly (second link makes my brain ache!) Hyperion intentionally distributed a pirated copy of MUI4 to their customers just to provoke a reaction from Stuntzi?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »18.01.14 - 20:10
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2014 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Hyperion intentionally distributed a pirated copy of MUI4


    As much I like to nail something like that to Hyperion....

    The guys maintaing the OS4-MUI did release that onw their own, maybe they just forgot to compile the keyfile-check, maybe they thought that Stuntzi was long gone, maybe that their contributions to the code ouweigh his and MUI so somehow became theirs,maybe....

    Still quite a funny trainwreck.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
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  • »18.01.14 - 20:28
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1091 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Hyperion intentionally distributed a pirated copy of MUI4


    As much I like to nail something like that to Hyperion....

    The guys maintaing the OS4-MUI did release that onw their own, maybe they just forgot to compile the keyfile-check, maybe they thought that Stuntzi was long gone, maybe that their contributions to the code ouweigh his and MUI so somehow became theirs,maybe....

    Still quite a funny trainwreck.




    So the OS4 update mechanism isn't controlled by Hyperion? Interesting.....

    Has Stuntzi made any public statements about this debacle?

    I was previously under the impression that MUI4 had been bought by the MorphOS Team at some point and now belongs to them, but I'm not sure why I had this idea.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »18.01.14 - 22:17
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