ARM for the future?
  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Raspberry Pi clones?
    No, even if the team targeted ARM that would be a poor choice.
    The original, while it has a decent GPU, has a weak cpu.
    The latest Pi does partially remedy that, but its still not an impressive device.

    As we have repeatedly covered available ARM boards, I'm not going to rehash that topic.
    But even my two year old A9 quad core Android box would be a better choice.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »03.06.16 - 22:35
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Raspberry Pi clones?
    No, even if the team targeted ARM that would be a poor choice.
    The original, while it has a decent GPU, has a weak cpu.
    The latest Pi does partially remedy that, but its still not an impressive device.

    As we have repeatedly covered available ARM boards, I'm not going to rehash that topic.
    But even my two year old A9 quad core Android box would be a better choice.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.06.16 - 15:31
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
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    Update:

    > New list of DMIPS per MHz and core figures

    ARM Cortex-A7: 1.9
    ARM Cortex-A8: 2.0
    ARM Cortex-A35: 1.8...2.1 (depending on source)
    Qualcomm Scorpion: 2.1
    ARM Cortex-A53: 2.3
    Marvell Sheeva PJ4: 2.4
    ARM Cortex-A9: 2.5
    Marvell Sheeva PJ4B: 2.6
    Qualcomm Krait 200: 3.1...3.3 (depending on source)
    Qualcomm Krait: 3.3
    Qualcomm Krait 300: 3.4
    ARM Cortex-A12: 3.0...3.5 (depending on source)
    Broadcom Brahma15: 3.5 (unsure whether or not this core is just ARM Cortex-A15)
    Apple Swift: 3.5
    Qualcomm Krait 450: 3.5
    Qualcomm Krait 400: 3.4...3.6 (depending on source)
    ARM Cortex-A17: 2.8...4.0 (depending on source)
    ARM Cortex-A15: 3.5...4.0 (depending on implementation)
    Applied Micro Potenza: 4.2
    ARM Cortex-A57: 4.1...4.8 (depending on implementation)
    Samsung M1/Mongoose: 5.1
    Qualcomm Kryo: 6.3
    ARM Cortex-A72: 4.8...7.4 (depending on source)
    ARM Cortex-A73: 4.9...8.5 (depending on source)
  • »24.08.16 - 18:54
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 165 from 2004/11/18
    Is this per core or for all cores ? Ex a7 monocore vs exynos whith for cores ?
  • »25.08.16 - 20:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> New list of DMIPS per MHz and core figures

    >> [...]

    > Is this per core or for all cores ?

    As I wrote: "per MHz and core"
  • »25.08.16 - 21:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Intel going ARM instead of Atom!

    That's a misleading statement in my opinion. Atom has been Intel's property, whereas for ARM chips they will only act as make-to-order manufacturer (just like TSMC and GlobalFoundries).
  • »04.09.16 - 11:12
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Well, maybe I read too much into the statement: "The move follows Intel's decision to cancel plans to release new Atom chips".

    But if this was to be true, it would in its extension mean a shift of focus in the same way as NXP cancelled their plans for upgraded e6500 cores and soc's, while continuing to develop their ARM based family of offerings, i.e. not meaning that they cancels PPC over night, but perhaps signals a long term intention in this direction, while continuing to offer products based on existing IP as long as customers are interested and there is profit to be made.

    But indeed this was the first and only time I heard the above about the Atom, and maybe I misinterpreted it.
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  • »04.09.16 - 13:15
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
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    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Well, maybe I read too much into the statement: "The move follows Intel's decision to cancel plans to release new Atom chips".

    But if this was to be true, it would in its extension mean a shift of focus in the same way as NXP cancelled their plans for upgraded e6500 cores and soc's, while continuing to develop their ARM based family of offerings, i.e. not meaning that they cancels PPC over night, but perhaps signals a long term intention in this direction, while continuing to offer products based on existing IP as long as customers are interested and there is profit to be made.

    But indeed this was the first and only time I heard the above about the Atom, and maybe I misinterpreted it.


    They announced that Atom will be discontinued in April.

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/3063508/components/intel-is-on-the-verge-of-exiting-the-smartphone-and-tablet-markets-after-cutting-atom-chips.html

    A few days ago they also discontinued Core M branding too.
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  • »04.09.16 - 16:11
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 868 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    I said early on in this thread that ARM will scale upwards much easier than x86 will scale downwards. ARM is entering new market segments upwards all the time, wile continuing to rule the low power segments (and soon dawns IOT for real)...


    x86 doesn't scale downwards, but ARM doesn't scale upwards. Both have tried to nibble at the territory of the other for ten years now, without success.

    I'm still waiting for evidence of where ARM has successfully moved onto the desktop or laptop arenas. Or even game consoles.
  • »04.09.16 - 20:36
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    I said early on in this thread that ARM will scale upwards much easier than x86 will scale downwards. ARM is entering new market segments upwards all the time, wile continuing to rule the low power segments (and soon dawns IOT for real)...


    x86 doesn't scale downwards, but ARM doesn't scale upwards. Both have tried to nibble at the territory of the other for ten years now, without success.

    I'm still waiting for evidence of where ARM has successfully moved onto the desktop or laptop arenas. Or even game consoles.


    Performance wise it's there already, though no (or very few) devices has been made for desktop/laptop markets.

    There are much info in this thread, if you care enough to scan through it... ;-)
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  • »04.09.16 - 21:01
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 868 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    I said early on in this thread that ARM will scale upwards much easier than x86 will scale downwards. ARM is entering new market segments upwards all the time, wile continuing to rule the low power segments (and soon dawns IOT for real)...


    x86 doesn't scale downwards, but ARM doesn't scale upwards. Both have tried to nibble at the territory of the other for ten years now, without success.

    I'm still waiting for evidence of where ARM has successfully moved onto the desktop or laptop arenas. Or even game consoles.


    Performance wise it's there already, though no (or very few) devices has been made for desktop/laptop markets.

    There are much info in this thread, if you care enough to scan through it... ;-)


    As I'd said earlier, even the highest end ARM cpu (which no longer has either the advantages of low power and low fan/passive cooling), isn't even in the same ballpark as a four year old i7 -- so much so that there has never been any real point in comparing them. And that isn't even taking any of the chipset advantages into account.

    A seven watt CPU from 2016 can't compete with a seventy watt CPU from 2016. It's just physics.

    [ Edited by KennyR 05.09.2016 - 02:29 ]
  • »04.09.16 - 23:17
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1369 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    x86 doesn't scale downwards, but ARM doesn't scale upwards. Both have tried to nibble at the territory of the other for ten years now, without success.

    The lack of success of Intel processors in low-power consumer devices has little to do with technology and a lot to do with business strategy. There have been Intel-based smartphones that were competitive in terms of performance as well as battery life. But, offering more of the same is just not good enough to compete in this space. There is a reason why Freescale gave up on smartphones and tablets years ago...

    Unless Intel can offer either clearly superior performance or substantially lower pricing, phone manufacturers have little interest to buy Intel chips when they can buy from Qualcomm or Samsung instead. Nobody is particularly keen to see Intel dominate smartphones in the same way they do desktop computers and laptops. If Microsoft Windows had not utterfy failed on smartphones, Intel may have had a shot but we know how that worked out.

    Quote:

    I'm still waiting for evidence of where ARM has successfully moved onto the desktop or laptop arenas. Or even game consoles.

    How do you define success? Nintendo´s upcoming NX "game console" is said to use ARM chips.
  • »05.09.16 - 10:00
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:...Nintendo´s upcoming NX "game console" is said to use ARM chips.


    Patents issued for that "console" make it look more like a handheld device.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »05.09.16 - 12:42
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
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    >> Nintendo´s upcoming NX "game console" is said to use ARM chips.

    > Patents issued for that "console" make it look more like a handheld device.

    A handheld game console, then :-)
  • »05.09.16 - 12:52
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> Nintendo´s upcoming NX "game console" is said to use ARM chips.

    > Patents issued for that "console" make it look more like a handheld device.

    A handheld game console, then :-)



    Seem inevitable, doesn't it?
    Why have a bulky console when everything can be packaged in a much smaller device?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »05.09.16 - 15:00
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    KennyR
    Posts: 868 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> Nintendo´s upcoming NX "game console" is said to use ARM chips.

    > Patents issued for that "console" make it look more like a handheld device.

    A handheld game console, then :-)



    Seem inevitable, doesn't it?
    Why have a bulky console when everything can be packaged in a much smaller device?



    Because the bulky console will pump 4k graphics in high detail at high fps, and the smaller device is good for candy crush.
  • »05.09.16 - 22:09
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:

    x86 doesn't scale downwards, but ARM doesn't scale upwards.


    ARM v8 is an architecture, you can scale it however you like.
    See my previous comment about Fujitsu. They're putting ARM in a top end supercomputer. That's not going to be a mobile processor. There's numerous other companies working on big server and networking chips.

    Quote:

    Both have tried to nibble at the territory of the other for ten years now, without success.


    ARM hasn't even tried to get into the desktop market. It's a small market (yes, really), and there's really big, aggressive competitor.
    ARM is however going after servers, and HPC. It's not so x86 centric, and these days they're getting very concerned about power.
    They're also more concerned about throughput than single threaded performance.

    Quote:

    I'm still waiting for evidence of where ARM has successfully moved onto the desktop or laptop arenas. Or even game consoles.


    The Samsung A15 Chromebook was the top selling laptop on Amazon for months.
    Intel pushed back there but this has just been announced:

    http://liliputing.com/2016/07/acer-chromebook-13-mediatek-mt8173-processor-coming-soon.html


    Quote:

    A seven watt CPU from 2016 can't compete with a seventy watt CPU from 2016. It's just physics.


    Yes. It's pretty impressive what you can do when you lift the limits:

    https://www.top500.org/news/chinese-chipmaker-unveils-speedy-64-core-arm-processor/
  • »05.09.16 - 22:18
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Its kind of ironic that Intel is canceling the lowest power Atoms.
    I'm just finding devices using them that perform surprisingly well.
    I gave my niece a dirt cheap 8.9" Windows 10 laptop/tablet that she absolutely loves as she can carry it anywhere and it supports standard desktop software.
    Frankly, having used ARM set top boxes, phones, and tablets, I'm not that impressed with the quality of the software available under Android or Linux.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.09.16 - 20:12
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
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    >>>> Nintendo´s upcoming NX "game console" is said to use ARM chips.

    >>> Patents issued for that "console" make it look more like a handheld device.

    >> A handheld game console, then :-)

    > Seem inevitable, doesn't it? Why have a bulky console when everything can be
    > packaged in a much smaller device?

    "Nintendo Switch is a hybrid device; the Switch console is a tablet-like portable console, which can be inserted into a docking station attached to a television to use it as a home console. Despite this characteristic, Nintendo still markets the Switch as primarily being a home console rather than a portable. [...] Nintendo Switch is designed as a hybrid device which can operate as both a handheld video game console and a home video game console [...]. Although it is a hybrid device, a Nintendo spokesperson stated that Switch was "a home gaming system first and foremost""
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Switch

    ...and, with regard to the title of this thread:

    "Nintendo Switch is powered by the performance of the custom Tegra processor."
    https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2016/10/20/nintendo-switch/
  • »21.10.16 - 08:33
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
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    http://arstechnica.co.uk/business/2016/10/qualcomm-to-buy-nxp-semiconductor/

    NXP worth more than ARM?

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  • »27.10.16 - 12:33
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