X1000
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Are you really this thick, or are you just pretending?

    Neither. I'm merely pointing out your hypocrisy.

    > Your fetish for constantly bumping these two threads here on MorphZone
    > is truly obsessive, almost worse than your link-fetish

    I'm bumping those threads whenever I come across information that has enough bearing on matters that have been discussed in those threads. That's what I think is legitimate usage of the message board thread concept. Would you prefer me starting a new thread for every posting instead?
    Btw, I'm looking forward to you starting a thread about my top ten fetishes, including a poll ;-)

    > I can't be the only one thinking so.

    I'm confident this is true. You should start a poll to be sure.

    > I don't think anyone minds some off-topic discussions once in a while

    How can off-topic discussion be off-topic to the subforum explicitly dedicated to off-topic discussions? From the "General Forum" description:

    "This forum is for off-topic discussions. Bear in mind that standard rules apply: no flaming, baiting, or other forms of offensive posts."

    > this has been going on for *two years* for christ sake!

    You mean there is a limit on how long a thread is allowed to run?

    > Every time I come to MorphZone I see either the Sam 460 thread, the X1000 thread, or both

    Why don't you start a thread in the "Website" subforum of MorphZone and suggest there to the administration to move the "General Forum" threads off the front page?

    > that's something you don't even see on AW.net!

    They have their "Free for All" threads moved off the front page. You are free to suggest that to the MorphZone administration.

    > IMHO this wouldn't be "unnecessary moderation" at all

    In my opinion, locking a thread that runs within the correct subforum and completely complies with all self-imposed rules and regulations of MorphZone.org is very unnecessary.

    > it would merely be an overdue cleanup!

    No, that would require deleting the threads, not just locking them.

    > Very little of relevance to MorphOS, if indeed anything at all

    That's why it's in the "General Forum" category.

    > would be lost.

    Why don't you lead the way and delete all the postings you have made to those two threads you want to see locked? That would be consistent for a start, and it's true that this way nothing of relevance would get lost.

    > I have very much to say about both the X1000 and OS4, and trust me, I *will* continue
    > to speak my mind about those wherever the discussions takes place

    So you admit having kept this thread running, yet you want to see it locked? Hypocrisy.

    > I don't think it's of any relevance here whatsoever since neither the X1000,
    > nor the Sam460, nor OS4, will ever be of *any* relevance for MorphOS

    That's exactly why those threads are living in this very forum category, see? And btw, it's obvious that whenever discussion was about the X1000 hardware (mainly Nemo board) you tried hard to change the discussion to OS4, rendering your claim that you don't want OS4 to be discussed here on MorphZone hypocrisy at its best.

    > If you tried to imply that what I said was about *censorship* [...] then you're just too funny...

    Having threads locked that run within the correct subforum and completely comply with all self-imposed rules and regulations of the site would be a prime example for censorship. But then, we already know that you have your very own definitions of terms.
  • »12.06.12 - 20:46
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    hooligan
    Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    This is on general discussion zone. Nobody forces anyone to read anything.
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »12.06.12 - 20:51
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    Senex
    Posts: 497 from 2003/2/17
    From: Hannover / Ger...
    @Andreas

    Since more than 150 can't be verified by now, I've adjusted the number in the news-item meanwhile and explained in a comment that the number did origin from an anonymous german source.

    We had a couple of news submissions with the content of the e-mail from AmigaKit, but this source here did in addition also include the header as well as the comment, that going by that flawed sending of the e-mail there would be at least 540 additional people interested in the board.

    Since I didn't suspect someone spreading slipped business secrets of A-EON to be someone who inflates such numbers (and since, as it did, a faked number would be instantaneously be falsified by all the other recipients of the e-mail), I guilelessly took that number for real.

    After all, it might still be a valid number - thus I hope that as requested in my german comment either the anonymous source gives me more details how he came to that conclusion or that some of the e-mail recipients publish their respective first and last one of the 150 entries (garbled by e.g. just spelling the first two or three letters of the addresses) to see if it might have been four different e-mails of max. 150 recipients each.

    But for the time being I've changed the news-item to 150 now. In case it turns out that the number of 540 people indeed was a hoax, I do apologize of course for this canard.

    [ Edited by Senex 12.06.2012 - 22:22 ]
  • »12.06.12 - 21:00
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2714 from 2003/2/24
    @hooligan

    OK, let's continue then! Indeed there are still *lots* of things to be said about X1000 and OS4, and more and more stuff seems to constantly surface as the farce rolls on. :-) And for the record, I think the moderation on MZ is rock solid... :-)

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma 12.06.2012 - 22:15 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.06.12 - 21:14
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > this source here did in addition also include the header as well as the comment,
    > that going by that flawed sending of the e-mail there would be at least 540 additional
    > people interested in the board. Since I didn't suspect someone spreading slipped
    > business secrets of A-EON to be someone who inflates such numbers (and since, as
    > it did, a faked number would be instantaneously be falsified by all the other recipients
    > of the e-mail), I guilelessly took that number for real.

    Thanks for outlining how this incident has come to pass. Appreciated.
  • »12.06.12 - 21:15
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Am I wrong, but is the interest in the X1000 here bordering on the obsessiveness?

    IT DOES NOT RUN MORPHOS, WHY DO YOU CARE WHO OWNS ONE?
  • »12.06.12 - 23:28
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    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Quote:


    IT DOES NOT RUN MORPHOS, WHY DO YOU CARE WHO OWNS ONE?



    Care to elaborate?

    Edit: Oh, you must mean this user list from moobunny. Could have been better to not paste it here.


    [ Edited by itix 13.06.2012 - 05:53 ]
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »13.06.12 - 03:49
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    "more and more stuff seems to constantly surface as the farce rolls on." :roll:

    It's pretty sad life if you have the urge of dig out only the bad.
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »13.06.12 - 06:14
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2714 from 2003/2/24
    @minator

    Couldn't care less. But I think it's interesting to see how many they are. These are confirmed owners, as far as I can tell (did not do the list myself, but the only protest so far was about being listed as user instead of betatester). I'll be happy to add more as they are spotted. And this is "free for all" - if you don't like it, don't read it! :-)


    @KimmoK

    "It's pretty sad life"

    My life isn't sad at all, couldn't be better at the moment, and why should my life have anything to do with the X1000? Trust me, it never will!

    "if you have the urge of dig out only the bad."

    I'm hardly "digging", the shit just keeps floating up to the surface, apparently as soon as there is some kind of twitch in the lame "X1000 project" body.

    Alright, where is the *good* then? Its performance? Its price? Its bang for the buck? Its features? Its availability? The financial strength of the entities behind it (the ones promising a warranty), who are so weak that they can't even make the product available for real (up to half a year delivery time on pre-orders, WTF?!), but has to sell one through pre-payment on some e-mail list to be able to build another through pre-payment and sell this, and so on? I'd really like to see these entities cope with a warranty issue concerning more than a few single products! What if a new "Articia S" issue would surface, so you would have to recall/modify a whole bach? Yeah, right, "warranty", it would be Eyetech all over again. Or is "The Power of X"? Or the SMP capabilities in OS4? The level, features, stability, support etc of OS4 in general? Not really, right? IMHO, the X1000 is killing what's left of the active OS4 crowd. They see that there is no viability in this, no reliability, no self-sustainability, no future whatsoever for a platform that put all eggs in *this* basket, they think "Oh, if *this* was the answer, then the OS4 platform is truly doomed" and moves on. X1000 is to blame for this, or better put: The strategy that they (Hyperion) constantly pursue of strictly keeping OS4 tied to under-performing, *ridiculously overpriced*, weird HW, built in batches of 30-50 units, that almost never reaches full OS support, the kamikaze-focus on PPC as the savior and the only way to a future, is killing it, and the X1000 is merely the latest (and by far the *biggest*) blow they exposed OS4 to, merely the latest moronic mistake (and by far the *biggest*). There is no credible future for OS4. People see this, and are leaving. You see signs of this if you know where to look, and look over time. Hyperion and the X1000 is driving them away...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »13.06.12 - 08:26
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    pampers
    Posts: 1061 from 2009/2/26
    From: Tczew, Poland
    takemehomegrandma,
    Quote:

    Am I the only one wondering why we have a 39 page long thread about X1000 here on MorphZone.org that has constantly been bumped since June 2010? Isn't that kind of hilarious


    Yes it is. Count your posts in.
    MorphOS 3.x
  • »13.06.12 - 09:02
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > a platform that put all eggs in *this* basket

    The OS4 platform has its eggs in 2 baskets actually, A-Eon basket and ACube basket. The Sam460ex is currently available to buy and has not been discontinued so far.

    > The strategy that they (Hyperion)

    That's not by chance the same "they" who allegedly attempted to "try to sell us" hyped numbers, is it?

    > constantly pursue of strictly keeping OS4 tied to under-performing,
    > *ridiculously overpriced*, weird HW, built in batches of 30-50 units

    Is that how the port to the Pegasos 2 came about? ;-)
  • »13.06.12 - 09:56
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    @takemehomegrandma

    I see x1000 mainly a platform to develop SMP/multicore stuff on. And to build support for modern things like for PCIex16 GPUs, large RAM, etc.
    For users it should not be that interesting because of the price.

    x1000 seems to perform as (realists) expected. xcore/xena tools (+HW) seem to be coming out little by little (even though it's not known what all it will be used at this point).

    x1000 is so expensive and complex that it's production is not simple to arrange. I doubt it's possible "temporary unavailability" is a big problem, because rare people can afford it.

    (but for example I see it more appealing than any water cooled "wind tunnel" G5 Mac, even if MOS or AOS4 existed for G5. But I buy neither.)

    I have not monitored/compared if AOS4 development has slowed down in general. New third party stuff at least appear at good pace, almost daily (perhaps the strongest point of AOS4 branch). OS updates seem to come in ok pace. And there seems to be new HW in production and more are in the works, as we know. +AOS4 supports also legacy and peg2 and who knows what in the future.
    And it's the only Amigalike OS I can for example access my NAS GUI. ;-)

    Stability, speedup, drivers are the weak points. AOS4 has no matured as nicely as MOS. At this rate also AROS can catch up AOS4.(reminds me that I should re-check it)

    Every flavour has it's own strengths and soft spots. I love the fact that there is AOS variant that stays on PPC also in future (untill I see better x86/ARM SOCs at least.

    [ Edited by KimmoK 13.06.2012 - 12:26 ]
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »13.06.12 - 10:19
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > x1000 seems to perform as (realists) expected.

    I disagree, as I think that I'm a realist and I can assure you that computationally the PA6T underperforms compared to what I expected from it. So could you please refer to some 2011 or older postings/statements from those you call "realists" where they correctly estimated the kind of performance that has manifested in 2012?
    Maybe I should have become overally more suspicious when I found out about the relatively (compared to G3/G4/G5 that is) low DMIPS/MHz per core figure of the PA6T two years ago.

    > it's the only Amigalike OS I can for example access my NAS GUI. ;-)

    Why wouldn't that work with MorphOS or AROS running OWB?
  • »13.06.12 - 11:05
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    @Andreas_Wolf

    I think there was me and others expecting slightly better than Atom 1.6Ghz performance, while hoping for even better.

    As it's kind of "mobile" version of G5, it was perhaps silly to expect it to perform like G5 or G4 per Mhz...

    As we have seen it scales better in multicore stuff than any other PPC (because of large shared cache and faster buses).
    (I'm little surpriced that PA6T (2006 design) can get similar RAM speeds than three year old (2010) PCs)

    >>it's the only Amigalike OS I can for example access my NAS GUI. ;-)
    >Why wouldn't that work with MorphOS or AROS running OWB?

    I do not know. I should re-try with newer MOS OWB.
    (on AOS4 it works only with timberwolf second beta)


    btw. I think the topic was something like should MOS be running on x1000? IMO: clearly no. Effort should be put to support some other new HW (like SAM460 or some even more affordable around 1Ghz PPC HW).


    [ Edited by KimmoK 13.06.2012 - 14:13 ]
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »13.06.12 - 11:34
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2714 from 2003/2/24
    @Andreas

    Obviously there are no similarities between the X1000 and the Pegasos2 whatsoever, if anything at all you could say that they both represents a doomed CPU architecture for the desktop market. Little girls cell phones runs in circles around the old €1000+ Sam440 systems, the Sam460 doesn't even reach the old Pegasos2 performance AFAIK (and lacks all kinds of stable drivers), not that it matters, it has already came as far as it could get. OS4 is shrinking, the lead OS developer asks community members for aid in developing the OS(!!). Is the twin brothers even around there anymore, or are they just hoping to cash in some Timberwolf bounty money before they leave permanently? The next step along this line for A-eon would be to have community members come over to the factory to solder together their own systems, putting up their own money at risk. The latter is of course already in place with the pre-payment scheme, they just need to follow it through all the way. The X1000 can only be afforded if you sell your first-born, it competes with 2005 level HW in performance, it's not self-sustaining, as a "product" (which it obviously isn't) it can't live or breathe by itself. There are AmigaOne XE owners still using their systems (although they probably die off at an increasing pace by now). If the X1000 follows the same pattern, these 2005 level X1000's will be what any "high-end" OS4 users remaining in 2020 will be using (all 58 of them). It can't play the HD media we have today, and it sure as hell won't play whatever will be there in the future. And they will probably still wait for true SMP. And for some miracle to happen for PPC, so that Amiga can make the comback the world has been waiting for. Everyone that isn't blind can see the poor situation it's in, and the complete lack of a future it has laid out in front of it. I just hope that Trevor Dickinson uses the money he scores from this to create a "amigaone Y2000", with a "Yorro" busboard ("What is Y?") based upon some deprecated USB1.0 bus with a $2 chip or whatever ("Woah, think about what this could mean for OS4?"), costing at least, hmm... FOUR thousand dollars (if not Five? Hmm, some will pay anything, just collect their money and leave!). Then the last few OS4 users would drop off in a few years, and it would finally be over. They have been working hard along this path for many years now, striving persistently, with one insanity after another. A new "most ambitious project", yet another PPC machine with *terrible* bang for the buck ratio, drivers developed after 2 years, etc; yes, that would be the final death blow, the mercy kill to end the OS4 misery.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »13.06.12 - 11:40
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I think there was me and others expecting slightly better than
    > Atom 1.6Ghz performance

    Okay, so you've been wiser than most others, including me :-)

    > As it's kind of "mobile" version of G5, it was perhaps silly to
    > expect it to perform like G5 or G4 per Mhz...

    Regarding G4: Why? The G4 up to 1.67 GHz was used in mobile devices as well.
    Regarding G5: You're probably right.

    > I should re-try with newer MOS OWB.

    Yes, please do and report back.
  • »13.06.12 - 12:27
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    "Regarding G4: Why? The G4 up to 1.67 GHz was used in mobile devices as well."

    Yes but G4 was designed for desktop. And as it has shorter instruction pipelines and better Altivec it has big advantage per Mhz (narrow bus limits that advantage only for large data and multi threaded operations).
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »13.06.12 - 13:00
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> The strategy that they (Hyperion) constantly pursue of strictly
    >>> keeping OS4 tied to under-performing, *ridiculously overpriced*,
    >>> weird HW, built in batches of 30-50 units

    >> Is that how the port to the Pegasos 2 came about? ;-)

    > Obviously there are no similarities between the X1000 and the
    > Pegasos2 whatsoever

    Then Hyperion's strategy can't have been be so constant or strict, right?

    > €1000+ Sam440 systems

    Weren't they slightly below the 1k EUR mark?

    >>> a platform that put all eggs in *this* basket

    >> The OS4 platform has its eggs in 2 baskets actually, A-Eon basket
    >> and ACube basket. The Sam460ex is currently available to buy and has
    >> not been discontinued so far.

    > the Sam460 doesn't even reach the old Pegasos2 performance AFAIK

    ...which has no bearing on its availability and thus the fact that opposed to your claim the OS4 platform has some eggs also in the ACube basket.
    Regarding performance of Sam460ex vs. Pegasos 2 see:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6235&start=34 (posting #36)

    > The next step along this line for A-eon would be to have community
    > members come over to the factory to solder together their own systems

    If this was the next step after the current situation, which step would be purchasing just the populated Nemo boards and building your own system around it?

    > The X1000 can only be afforded if you sell your first-born

    2500 to 2800 EUR seems rather cheap for a child, provided it's in sound condition of course ;-)

    > a "product" (which it obviously isn't)

    ...to the minds of you and the ones sharing your obscure definition of the term "product".

    > 2005 level X1000's

    I still think they're more like 2007-level.
  • »13.06.12 - 13:41
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> As it's kind of "mobile" version of G5, it was perhaps silly to
    >>> expect it to perform like [...] G4 per Mhz...

    >> Why? The G4 up to 1.67 GHz was used in mobile devices as well.

    > Yes but G4 was designed for desktop.

    ...yet is at 1.67 GHz obviously low-power enough for mobile usage, so its characteristics can't be too far off a dedicated mobile chip. So why was it silly to expect the PA6T at 1.8 GHz, that is two years younger than the MPC7447A/B, to be able to beat the G4 in per-clock performance?

    > it has shorter instruction pipelines

    True, shorter than PA6T. But then, PA6T and G5 have the same length, yet G5 has better per-core performance than G4 in most cases (as long as AltiVec is not involved that is), so this isn't very convincing.

    > and better Altivec

    True, G4 AltiVec has best per-clock performance, but I'm referring to non-AltiVec performance (see for instance Dhrystone benchmark which doesn't use AltiVec at all).
  • »13.06.12 - 14:43
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    cha05e90
    Posts: 52 from 2010/6/23
    takemehomegrandma,
    Quote:

    Obviously there are no similarities...[incredible long foam-mouthed post]...the mercy kill to end the OS4 misery

    As I already mentioned, this thread has partly turned into pure comedy. Reminds me of some kind of Ahmadinedschad parody...
    II/G4
  • »13.06.12 - 19:47
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2033 from 2003/6/4
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    "they" who allegedly attempted to "try to sell us" hyped numbers, is it?


    Probably it's all managed from Bielefeld...
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »13.06.12 - 21:40
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    >> And one nasty thing... the 3D support is coming first&foremost for
    >> r700, IIRC. And r700 GPUs are disappearing from average PC shop

    > How does that matter when the X1000 already comes with it pre
    > installed? I take it AmigaKit have stocked at least as many of those
    > cards as A-Eon have PA6T chips in their possession ;-)

    Seems I was overly optimistic regarding the availability of R700-based graphics cards:

    http://www.a-eon.com/news/25-06-2012.html

    "A few months ago I got an email from Trevor (A-Eon Technology) letting me know that supply of Radeon HD 4000 series cards was getting so scarce that supply could no longer be guaranteed. This made adding support for newer series urgent, and so an agreement was made in order to deliver this As Soon As Possible (ASAP)."
    http://hdrlab.org.nz/projects/amiga-os-4-projects/radeonhd-driver/radeonhd-development-log/new-blogentry/
  • »25.06.12 - 08:49
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    It is never ending game.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »25.06.12 - 10:37
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    _DaNi_
    Posts: 154 from 2010/5/4
    From: Barcelona, Spain
    It is = Pay for Radeon Drivers
  • »25.06.12 - 11:32
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the previous message from March 31st on that very page stated that
    > the next batch was due in Q2, now it is July to the end of 2012, so
    > if *anything*, this is an announcement of yet another *delay*

    Seems they really managed to deliver the first unit(s) of the second batch in Q2:

    http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?p=14179#p14179

    :-)
  • »02.07.12 - 14:23
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