X1000
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > http://www.amigakit.com/x1000/%3Cbr%20/%3E%3C/div%3E
    > Now defaults to search page.

    Yes, because it's a distorted URL. The original link I gave is still valid.
  • »28.11.11 - 15:39
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4957 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Thank you Andreas.
    Ordering has not begun?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »28.11.11 - 18:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2792 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    @redrumloa,

    Quote:

    I saw that page. I seriously doubt that page cause 100 pre-orders for this "First Contact" just like I seriously doubt there were 100 who bought "Beta Boards". It sounds like Amigakit/A-Eon went to the Amiga Inc school of progaganda.


    No propoganda, one week after that page was made available I sent an email asking to be put on the list of people wanting to buy an X1000 and the reply I received was that they had already received more people interested in buying than the number of First Contact X1000's that were going to be made.

    I don't know why you think that there are less than 100 people that want to buy the X1000?

    It is a unique computer that will be built in very limited quantities and will hold a place in the history of the Amiga for a very long time to come. I know all of the reasons NOT to want one. All the limitations and weaknesses of the hardware and the current state of the OS that is far behind MorphOS, but still I want one. I know it will never happen, but I would love to be able to boot MorphOS, OS4, Linux & Mac-on-Linux, on the X1000 some day.

    What other computer has been built for running only AmigaOS4.x since the demise of Commodore in 1994? If I remember correctly, all of the other AmigaOne designs were boards that were already developed, and later used to port AmigaOS4.x to them. Also, since I have never owned an OS4.x system, I would like to see first hand the differences between OS4 and MorphOS. It will give me a better perspective when talking to OS4 users about MorphOS, if I know what they are using for comparison. Lastly, I really like the case design. I like it so much that I am going to try to buy a second bare case to install my A4000 Toaster/Flyer system into it.

    So, call me crazy and foolish, but I have been selling parts of my large Classic Amiga collection to raise money for purchasing an X1000, if I can get into the cue of people that are allowed to purchase one of the First Contact systems. This is how I know that AmigaKit received more inquiries to purchase than they have available First Contact systems. So, unless someone drops out and I can take their place, I won't be able to get a First Contact X1000 and would have to wait and hope that a second production run will be made. I have raised the money needed for the purchase and just wait to hear back from AmigaKit to find out if I can get into the First Contact group of purchasers.

    This does not mean that I will be any less of a MorphOS supporter.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »28.11.11 - 20:39
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    @amigadave

    AFAIK those limited edition boards were left overs from the beta tester program. That is 100 boards in total including beta testers and those who bought it through limited edition.

    But I can agree we are living exciting times. Apparently PA6T is too underpowered to run OS4 and this project is turning to the biggest financial fiasco since CBM. I can only admire Trevor's willingness to dump money down the black hole. Maybe one day I will be rich like Trevor.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »28.11.11 - 21:38
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    stephen_robinson
    Posts: 745 from 2007/4/22
    itix,

    Haters gonna hate.
  • »28.11.11 - 21:48
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    What that means?
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »28.11.11 - 23:33
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > AFAIK those limited edition boards were left overs from the beta tester program.
    > That is 100 boards in total including beta testers and those who bought it through
    > limited edition.

    According to Trevor Dickinson's AmiWest 2011 presentation there're really 100 beta testers alone. He even showed on a slide how many there're in which country. So "100 boards in total including beta testers" as you say would leave zero boards for the "First Contact" systems. As I mentioned already in this thread, way back a batch size of 250 was mentioned for the Nemo boards. With 100 boards for beta testers this would leave 150 boards for the "First Contact" systems.

    > Apparently PA6T is too underpowered to run OS4

    Could you go into more detail please?
  • »28.11.11 - 23:56
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Andreas_Wolf,

    Quote:


    According to Trevor Dickinson's AmiWest 2011 presentation there're really 100 beta testers alone. He even showed on a slide how many there're in which country. So "100 boards in total including beta testers" as you say would leave zero boards for the "First Contact" systems.



    I see. Is that presentation available anywhere? It sounds odd, doesnt it? Why would unreleased product sell better than Acube's stuff? But it is possible of course.

    Quote:


    Could you go into more detail please?



    It can't run applications at speed you would expect from PA6T chip. Maybe there is some issue with memory interface, I dont know.

    Has anyone ever seen X1000 or PA6T running applications fast? When they are only 30 days away from the grand release you would expect to see some sneak previews but public demonstrations so far have been very limited.

    Not having some drivers ready is understandable but complete lack of any proper demonstrations of PA6T performance are telling its story. Is that chip bugged?
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »29.11.11 - 00:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Is that presentation available anywhere?

    http://vimeo.com/31010757
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PdywsoOPmI
    http://blip.tv/bios/dickinson-talks-the-amigaone-x1000-at-amiwest-2011-5709660 (direct link)

    > It can't run applications at speed you would expect from PA6T chip.

    Do you have some recent numbers or even footage that shows this?

    > public demonstrations so far have been very limited.

    Absolutely. That's why I'm not aware of recent public information regarding the performance of X1000.

    > complete lack of any proper demonstrations of PA6T performance are telling
    > its story.

    I sincerely hope that this isn't your only "proof" of the X1000's alleged underperformance ;-)
  • »29.11.11 - 01:35
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    amigadave,
    Quote:

    So, call me crazy and foolish, but I have been selling parts of my large Classic Amiga collection to raise money for purchasing an X1000, if I can get into the cue of people that are allowed to purchase one of the First Contact systems. This is how I know that AmigaKit received more inquiries to purchase than they have available First Contact systems. So, unless someone drops out and I can take their place, I won't be able to get a First Contact X1000 and would have to wait and hope that a second production run will be made. I have raised the money needed for the purchase and just wait to hear back from AmigaKit to find out if I can get into the First Contact group of purchasers.

    This does not mean that I will be any less of a MorphOS supporter.


    You don't have to explain yourself to me :-) If you want an X1000 and your eyes are wide open, go for it. Personally I would wait for some benchmarks or reports from sources I trust, but that is just me.
  • »29.11.11 - 03:45
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2792 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    @itix,

    Anyone who wanted to had the opportunity to sit at the October AmiWest 2011 Show and use Steve Solie's X1000 for as long as they liked. I was swamped with work at my MorphOS display table (trouble getting Ethernet working) and questions about the FPGA Arcade Replay board, the Natami booklet that I was given to display during the show and my A600 running the AROS 68k boot floppy disk, so I only took a few minutes to try out the X1000 and had a look at the latest build of Timberwolf. Since I imagine that Timberwolf is bloated when compared to Odyssey on MorphOS, I had expected it to run slowly, but it was actually quite usable on the X1000. The general performance of windows opening and moving around within OS4 on the X1000 was good and I wish I had more time available to test out that system. But as I said earlier, I am sure that MorphOS2.7 on my 1.5GHz G4 MacMini, or my 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac are both faster than any OS4 system and I believe that MorphOS has better standards and has better 68k JIT translation for Classic Amiga software. I can't explain why I want an X1000, I just want it for many reasons that don't make any logical sense. If I were completely logical, I probably would have given up on all types of Amiga computers long ago and only used the more main stream systems.

    As for your comment about why the X1000 would sell better than the ACube systems, I didn't say that it would, but the SAM boards are basically embedded systems boards that have been adapted for use by the OS4 crowd. The X1000 is the first computer built from the beginning as a new AmigaOS4 computer. That all by itself makes it unique. I am not saying that it is worth the price to everyone. In fact, it is only worth the asking price to a few Amiga fanatics like me and a few hundred others.

    Not sure where the number of 250 boards came from. I must have missed it, but that is not surprising, as I was not really interested in getting an X1000 until just a couple of months ago.

    I also don't know if that number means that 250 is the number of PA6T chips purchased by A-Eon, or if they have more PA6T's chips to build later Nemo boards for the X1000 production.

    I may be completely wrong in my thinking that there might not be later production runs of the X1000 Nemo boards. Like I said, I hope that everyone who wants an X1000 and can afford to buy one has the opportunity to get their own X1000. I hope that I get the opportunity to buy one now, or in a few months.

    Your claims that the chip is buggy, or that it is too slow to run OS4 are senseless as far as I can tell. The X1000 is obviously more powerful than the SAM 440 and SAM 460 systems and they run OS4. You can of course point out all of the short comings of OS4 that you want and the fact that it is taking longer than anticipated to port OS4 to the X1000, but it does run OS4 and I have had the opportunity to try it out myself, just not long enough to get a feel for what OS4 is really capable of. I hope and expect that MorphOS will remain well ahead of OS4 in the future and I also hope that MorphOS will eventually support my dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac, but those things do not stop me from wanting the X1000, or wishing that the MorphOS Development Team would be given an X1000 for each member, so they would decide to port MorphOS to the X1000. I would like to have one computer system that would be capable of running both OS4 and MorphOS, but don't want to go backward to buying a Pegasos2.


    Edit: @Redrumloa, My desire to purchase an X1000 does not depend on any benchmarks for the speed of the X1000 hardware. I like the fact that it (to my knowledge) is the only computer designed solely for running any AmigaOS since Commodore went under. I personally like the guy behind the machine and the performance of the X1000 will be adequate for running the software that is currently available for OS4. I could never afford to buy a brand new Amiga when they were still being produced, so getting an X1000 when it is first released also has some appeal. I could go on with many other reasons I want an X1000, but it won't make any difference to those who do not want one and think that spending that amount of money on such a mediocre performing system is a waste of money. I am not trying to convince anyone to purchase an X1000. In fact, I would be more likely to argue against such a purchase, unless you really know what you are getting and understand what it is for.

    [ Edited by amigadave 28.11.2011 - 19:15 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »29.11.11 - 04:00
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1423 from 2003/4/13
    amigadave,
    Quote:

    Edit: @Redrumloa, My desire to purchase an X1000 does not depend on any benchmarks for the speed of the X1000 hardware. I like the fact that it (to my knowledge) is the only computer designed solely for running any AmigaOS since Commodore went under. I personally like the guy behind the machine and the performance of the X1000 will be adequate for running the software that is currently available for OS4. I could never afford to buy a brand new Amiga when they were still being produced, so getting an X1000 when it is first released also has some appeal. I could go on with many other reasons I want an X1000, but it won't make any difference to those who do not want one and think that spending that amount of money on such a mediocre performing system is a waste of money. I am not trying to convince anyone to purchase an X1000. In fact, I would be more likely to argue against such a purchase, unless you really know what you are getting and understand what it is for.



    Again, you don't need to explain yourself to me. I have nothing but respect for you. :-)
  • »29.11.11 - 04:27
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    Quote:


    Do you have some recent numbers or even footage that shows this?



    Nothing I can tell publicly.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »29.11.11 - 06:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    magnetic
    Posts: 2129 from 2003/3/1
    From: Los Angeles
    Quote:

    Has anyone ever seen X1000 or PA6T running applications fast? When they are only 30 days away from the grand release you would expect to see some sneak previews but public demonstrations so far have been very limited.


    Yeah, good points here. There still is NO pic or anything on the so called os4 netbook project. Also, anytime you see X1000 deployed running OS4 there is almost no software installed, just base install....
    Pegasos 2 Rev 2B3 w/ Freescale 7447 "G4" @ 1ghz / 1gb Nanya Ram
    Quad Boot: MorphOS 2.7 | Amiga OS4.1 U4 | Ubuntu PPC GNU/Linux | OS X 10.4
  • »29.11.11 - 07:09
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Not sure where the number of 250 boards came from. I must have missed it

    It's from a Trevor Dickinson interview linked to from a posting in this thread.

    > I also don't know if that number means that 250 is the number of PA6T chips
    > purchased by A-Eon

    It wouldn't make sense stating to plan for an initial batch size of 250 when 250 is all you can do as a whole, now would it? ;-)
  • »29.11.11 - 09:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Do you have some recent numbers or even footage that shows this?

    > Nothing I can tell publicly.

    Pity :-)
  • »29.11.11 - 09:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > There still is NO pic or anything on the so called os4 netbook project.

    Well, at least we know for sure that the hardware has been ready for years ;-)
  • »29.11.11 - 09:38
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2792 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    I think that most people believe that the OS4 netbook is just a repackaged Limebook and Steve Solie made a comment to the effect that it was obvious to anyone who knew anything about the e300 what the OS4 Netbook would be. I expect once it is finally announced in a few months that there will be a great cry of outrage toward Hyperion for trying to sell these underpowered e300 based, repackaged Limebook's as OS4 Netbooks at a price between $300 to $500 for the same hardware that Limebook was offering for $100 to $200. Hyperion is probably trying to figure out a way to minimize this complaint and will delay the announcement of exactly what the OS4 Netbook is for as long as they can. They will also probably try to make them a bit different in some small way to use as a reason for why they are asking between 2 to 4 times the cost of what Limebooks were sold for.

    As for Magnetic's assertion that the X1000 systems don't have any software installed and are mostly just bare OS4 installs, I would have to disagree. The X1000 system set up at the AmiWest 2010 and 2011 shows appeared to have a full complement of software installed on it. You should have made an effort to join me this year and gone to the show Thomas.

    It is no surprise that OS4 users in general don't post more information about speed test results where MorphOS users can use that information to show the weakness of OS4 compared to MorphOS, as so many threads have been written to ridicule OS4 users in the past by a few MorphOS users who revel in their superiority while bashing OS4's weaknesses, or short comings. Thankfully, less of this happens now than in the past and fewer flame fests occur on most forum sites now. We can't convert OS4 users that way and it only makes MorphOS users as a whole look bad when a few MorphOS users participate in flame wars with OS4 users in forum postings. We can make much more progress toward getting new users by just showing the advantages of MorphOS without mentioning OS4 at all.

    [ Edited by amigadave 29.11.2011 - 01:27 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »29.11.11 - 10:25
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2028 from 2003/6/4
    @ Amigadave

    I would at least wait until first extensive tests are done and the thing is out. What I really find interesting is how same thinks are differently judged by different ppl. For example the case. While you like it I think it is butt ugly. For my taste way to big, too unhandy, the boing ball thing just ridiculous. Only thing to 100% disqualify it is some red light cathodes and a plexiglass door...

    For some ppl the PA6T may sound appealing - it is the mystery processor "the ppc messiah that wasn't". It received a lot of hype - just like f. ex. the PS3. And while the PS3 sounded very intersting when announced the reality was rather awakening. The PA6T had the chance of receiving only the myth, it never arrived to customer market, never showed its behaviour in every day application (I don't count raytheon missiles as every day application). I tell you what - it will perform, but not extraordinary. A PowerMac G5 will outperform it.
    --
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  • »29.11.11 - 10:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I think that most people believe that the OS4 netbook is just a repackaged
    > Limebook [...]. I expect once it is finally announced in a few months that
    > there will be a great cry of outrage toward Hyperion for trying to sell these
    > underpowered e300 based, repackaged Limebook's as OS4 Netbooks at a
    > price between $300 to $500

    I don't see this "great cry of outrage" coming when as you say most people are already aware of what this OS4 netbook is, namely a rebadged LimeBook, especially when the target price range has already been announced.

    > for the same hardware that Limebook was offering for $100 to $200.

    THTF's current price for the LimeBook Z9 is 1599 RMB, which currently equates to 250 USD. And that's for the 256 MiB RAM version. Add the costs for another 256 MiB and the OS4 license and you easily reach 350 to 400 USD.

    > They will also probably try to make them a bit different in some small way to
    > use as a reason for why they are asking between 2 to 4 times the cost of what
    > Limebooks were sold for.

    If we take the announced upper limit of 500 USD and subtract 100 USD for the OS4 license it ends up at 400 USD for the hardware alone. That's 1.6 times the cost of what THTF is currently asking for it.
  • »29.11.11 - 11:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the PA6T [...] received a lot of hype - just like f. ex. the PS3. And while the
    > PS3 sounded very intersting when announced the reality was rather awakening.

    I think the PS3's Cell processor received magnitudes if not orders of magnitudes more hype than the PA6T ever did. After all, the PA6T was announced only after Apple's Intel switch as "just" a G5-class processor with less power consumption than the PPC970, whereas the Cell was presented by STI as a paradigm-shifting processor where "performance should reach ten times the capability of current PC processors". Accordingly, the PA6T has surely been much more able to meet the created expectations than the Cell processor ever was.

    > A PowerMac G5 will outperform it.

    I think that depends. A 2.7 GHz G5 will for sure, but a 1.6 GHz G5 probably won't.
  • »29.11.11 - 12:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2792 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    @Zylesea,

    Like I said, I don't expect anyone to understand my reasons for wanting an X1000, but "first extensive tests" won't affect my decision to purchase one or not. The size of the case is a plus in my eyes and the Boing Ball on the front is very attractive to me, while I agree with you on one point, a plexiglas door with a red cathode light inside would be a negative selling point for me as well.

    I expect my Dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac to outperform the X1000 is almost every test, and still that does not matter in making this decision.

    @Andreas Wolfe,

    If the OS4 Netbook is the Limebook Z9 and not some older repackaged version of the Limebook, the price Hyperion will charge for it will be more reasonable. I was thinking that it might be an older, slower, less powerful, repackaging of Limebook stock that Hyperion might have picked up cheap and was trying to make a quick buck selling to customers that they are used to charging outrageous prices for low spec computers. I really have not investigated Limebook hardware like you and VelcroSP have debated here for such a long time in the past, so you would know better than I what the Limebook hardware history is like and what Hyperion might be trying to use in their upcoming Netbooks. Also, I should have substituted my "cry of outrage" comment to "complaints of the few usual whiners in the Amiga community". Their usual complaints just sound like a cry of outrage due to their frequency and ferocity of the complaints they voice on many different forum sites.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »29.11.11 - 14:18
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11573 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If the OS4 Netbook is the Limebook Z9 and not some older repackaged version
    > of the Limebook, the price Hyperion will charge for it will be more reasonable.
    > I was thinking that it might be an older, slower, less powerful, repackaging of
    > Limebook stock that Hyperion might have picked up cheap

    There's no slower version of the LimeBook as there's no slower (and no faster) version of the MPC5121e than the 400 MHz one. At one point THTF was also offering 7" and 10" PPC LimeBook variants besides the 9" variant they offer now as the only option. I doubt that Hyperion will opt for the 7" one. They may go for 10" or even 12" (the latter option being the announced one but that may have been a misunderstanding), but I believe it will be the current 9" (Z9) model.

    > and was trying to make a quick buck selling to customers that they
    > are used to charging outrageous prices for low spec computers.

    To my knowledge, so far Hyperion has not sold any computers ever. So the OS4 netbook will be a first in this regard.
  • »29.11.11 - 15:33
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    @amigadave

    Quote:


    Your claims that the chip is buggy, or that it is too slow to run OS4 are senseless as far as I can tell.



    "Buggy" claim was unfair from my side but apparently it is comparable to some Peg2 or so.

    But despite of my discouraging words I dont have problem someone getting X1K. Neither it is (or OS4 in any form) any kind of "threat" to MorphOS. It is still unbelievable venture in every way.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »29.11.11 - 18:17
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Henes
    Posts: 507 from 2003/6/14
    >> It can't run applications at speed you would expect from PA6T chip.
    >
    >Do you have some recent numbers or even footage that shows this?

    My eyes claim that DvPlayer was not able to play a quite simple video at more than 15 FPS in fullscreen during the Alchimie. I do not know the used codecs or the exact resolution but it was looking like some sub-HD format.

    OTOH, the usually ultra slow and unusable GeekGadget-derivated X11 server was demonstrated and it was running a lot better than on older systems.

    In the end, all this doesn't say much about the hardware's performance and stability. Specially when it's running an inferior OS :)
  • »29.11.11 - 19:20
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