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Good. Hopefully Ben ends up bankrupt and having to spend the rest of his days in a Belgium gov flat.

@thread

Filed on May 16, 2019

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source document now available

Some interesting insights.

#6

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The way I'm reading this, looks to me like the court agrees with Hyperion's claim about the settlement, and everything would now be over if they hadn't gone completely over the line with Manomio.

@thread

Itec LLC withdrawn/terminated opposition to Cloanto (uspto) filing for Amiga

#6

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If I'm reading it right, they are siding with HYPE to a point simply because it is Cloanto bringing the suit and not McBill's Amiga Inc company(s).

It would be pretty bad if HYPE wins this because of McBill's Amiga is a corpse.

Went pretty much as expected.

Did you guys really that Mike's lawsuit could reverse a prior licensesing agreement?

Now, does Bill have the right to sell OS 3.1.4?

Because frankly, it doesn't seem like a bad product.
Certainly holds more interest for me than OS4?

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Hyperion being in violation of the Settlement Agreement which only covers OS4.x? Yes. 3.1.4 looks like a pirate product, not licensed.

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That's the main point here. *IF* you mean OS4, if Hyperion were found in violation of the Settlement Agreement, it could be rendered null and void. However, the judge seems to be dismissing issues raised about the settlement agreement since the suit is coming from Cloanto and not McBill's Amiga company(s). Sounds like the judge is claiming Cloanto is not party to the settlement agreement.

People who actually think HYPE had the right to sell a 3.1.4 are very few and far between. Most who do support it only support it due to logic like "Who cares the legality, it is old!".

[ Edited by redrumloa 20.05.2019 - 13:50 ]

> does Bill have the right to sell OS 3.1.4?

I don't think he'd want to. And even if, this would require the 3.1.4 authors to re-licensed their code. Furthermore, 3.1.4 contains older OS4 source code Hyperion has an exclusive license to (hence the 3.1.4 authors' statement that there was no other choice than having it published by Hyperion).

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I think he meant Ben.

> the Settlement Agreement [...] only covers OS4.x

It does not. AmigaOS 3.1 is mentioned directly and indirectly ("the Software") 28 times throughout the settlement agreement.

The outcome of the case doesn't really help 3.1.4. It seems dead either way. If Cloanto win, it would have to stop development, at least for years, probably permanently. If Hyperion win, there's still no money to pay developers and never will be, and that situation could never continue.

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Yeah Ben, early morning post, just after talking to my doctor and finding out that recent cancer screenings were negative. I'm not too focused, but very happy.

Ben...yeah, just how much DO you guys hate him?
Because even Bill Buck isn't that negative on the subject, and as recently as a few months ago expressed the opinion that we could still pull it together if we all cooperated.

And even if we can't, let's see MorphOS NG/X64 through, hopefully while still keeping the PPC version on the backburner.

@Jim: Good to hear about the test results. Real life puts all this other stuff into perspective.

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Only so far as a codebase to further OS4 development. Not developed further as a stand alone OS3.X release, nor "Classic Support".

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i figured as much. Very glad to hear it was negative Jim! **** cancer!

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You are very new to the Kommunity as you were not an Amiga user. Here are some cliff notes. That page doesn't include everything, not even close, and ends 5 years ago. His behavior continues to this day as he attempts to usurp the Amiga brand itself and IP from rightful owners, such as Cloanto.

There is no chance of cooperation with Ben Hermans still around. Did you not hear what Trever said he (allegedly) did on secret recordings? Would you get into bed with someone who (allegedly) embezzled all of a corporations funds?

If Cloanto wins, we could have cooperation. That's MB's whole goal, which is polar opposite of Hermans goal.

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I'm all about MorphOS X86-64. At that point hopefully the break is clean enough that people stop associating it with the laughingstock that "Amiga" has been for nearly a decade. I have an A500/Vampire to use when I get the itch.


[ Edited by redrumloa 20.05.2019 - 19:07 ]

>> AmigaOS 3.1 is mentioned directly and indirectly ("the Software") 28 times
>> throughout the settlement agreement.

> Only so far as a codebase to further OS4 development.

No, see the direct quotes from the settlement agreement in comments #411 and #811. And yes, Hyperion's subsequent press release says something else (see comments #105 and #559), contradicting the settlement agreement. That's the base of the "wording vs. spirit" debate.

For direct comparison, here the relevant passages from the settlement agreement (emphasis mine):

"[...] grant Hyperion [...] an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide and royalty-free, transferable right and Object Code and Source Code license to the Software in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market the Software in any form [...], on any medium [...], through any means (including but not limited to making AmigaOS 4 available to the public via the internet) and for any current or future hardware platform." and ""AmigaOS 4" means the Operating System developed by Hyperion and based in part on the Software, including without limitation the Software Architecture of the Software as described in the Documentation, in any version (irrespective of version numbering, e.g., AmigaOS 5)."

...and here the relevant passage from the Hyperion press release (emphasis mine):

"Hyperion is granted an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide right to AmigaOS 3.1 in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market AmigaOS 4.x (and subsequent versions of AmigaOS including without limitation AmigaOS 5)"

See what they did there?

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Doesn't it though.
I am greatly relieved.

And a few months ago, hearing Bill Buck make positive statements regarding Aeon, and at the very least neutral statements about Ben Hermans, while still insisting "we could still all pull this together if we just cooperated"...

Well, I think we all need some perspective.
Mike B. at Cloanto now owns the Amiga trademarks.
Ben definately holds the only license to develop from OS3.1 source code.

Aeon has an excellent contractor designing its boards (I've known Paul longer than I've known Trevor).
And Roberto Innocenti has managed to come to an agreement with Acube to help design a T2080 based laptop motherboard.
While Raptor Engineering stands poised to introduced an affordable consumer oriented Power9 based motherboard.

Things actually look better for Amiga NG then they did when Hyperion and Amiga Inc were at odds and Bill was making wild statements about specs for systems that were supposed to be designed by Ack Systems.

BTW - The specs for the best system McEwen quoted were surpassed by the X1000.

We live, we grow.

Heck, if I can, I might just have to come to Sacramento this Fall.
Hang out with AmigaDave and Acill.
Who know how long any of us has, but shouldn't we be working toward something positive?

Red/Jim - That last quote "Just because they cater for other "variants" of AmigaOS (not based on original source-code although there is some debate about that), does not exclude them from supporting the project."

Sure the "there is some debate about that" is a snipe.
But the statement in its entirety invites us to participate in OS4 development. Isn't that what Mark did when he wrote the network driver for Aeon? Or when Fab opened up his Odyssey source code to the community? And what about developers that span multiple NG OS'?

An OS5, opened up to public development with elements of both MorphOS and OS4 would be interesting. You wouldn't need the Friedens' kernel, the MorphOS micro kernel is better, you could choose between Reaction and MUI, Workbench and Ambient (or even Scalos). Some of the parts of MorphOS that need work (graphics specifically) could be improved, while Reggae could be upgraded or replaced.
And we could include 64 bit, SMP, memory protection in a box that would not preclude the running of OS4 or MorphOS PPC boxes concurrently.

Look even if this never happens, I'm going to look into VM solutions that will allow MorphOS to run concurrently with other operating systems.

The hardware is getting powerful enough now that some systems like the Blackbird should eventually be able to emulate PowerMacs, SAM460s, or the X5000 with ease and plenty of threads to spare (so concurrent OS4, MorphOS, Linux, BSD, etc. - its almost inevitable).

Sure, X64 is the way to go, but unlike you I'm not likely to look back at OS3.1 as the primary legacy software I want to run. Most of that can be run on my CD32 with an SX1. I'm going to want to fool around with PPC software under a variety of OS'.

Of course, that will likely be secondary to my use of MorphOS NG/X64 (hopefully on a Zen based platform).

[ Edited by Jim 21.05.2019 - 07:26 ]

> Mike B. at Cloanto now owns the Amiga trademarks.

Looking closer, it's a little more complicated:
- US-based Cloanto Corp. (as opposed to Italy-based Cloanto IT srl) owns the AmigaOS 3.1 copyright.
- C-A Acquisition owns the Amiga trademarks.
- Mike Battilana is majority owner of Cloanto IT srl, Cloanto Corp. and C-A Acquisition.

> Aeon has an excellent contractor designing its boards
> (I've known Paul longer than I've known Trevor).

Make that "had" instead of "has". Both Paul and Adam left Ultra Varisys years ago. And even Ultra Varisys is no more AFAIK, it's just the parent Ultra Electronics / Ultra PCS (Precision Control Systems) now. Of course, A-Eon may try to commission Ultra for any future board design.

> The specs for the best system McEwen quoted were surpassed by the X1000.

...except in terms of CPU clock rate, non-PEG PCIe slots and Ethernet :-)

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7183&forum=3&start=1003

> You wouldn't need the Friedens' kernel

It's been Trevor's kernel for a while, mind you :-)

> the MorphOS micro kernel is better

...but not very Amiga-like, that's why it needs the A-Box running on top providing an Amiga-like environment (including Amiga Exec reimplementation), whereas ExecSG does not.

> Reggae could be upgraded or replaced.

Replaced by what?

> Blackbird should eventually be able to emulate PowerMacs, SAM460s,
> or the X5000 with ease and plenty of threads to spare

Full emulation should work but is rather slow. CPU virtualization is hindered by the Book3s vs. Book3e issue, so while virtualizing G4/MPC74xx on POWER9 works (as shown with QEMU/KVM-PR on Talos II), virtualizing PPC4x0 or e5500 on POWER9 does not. Furthermore, there is no Cyrus/X5000 emulation target yet.

Well...we always have our own roadmap, and legacy CPU emulation was not ruled out, it's just a matter of developer resources.

In the meanwhile I'm playing around with late 2005 PowerMac G5s, trying to decide how powerful a Zen2 system I want build should be, and prepping for entry into an MBA program.

As always, my main focus with MorphOS has been the promotion of improved video capabilities.
I'm not an ISA fanatic, and don't favor X64 or PPC.
Just give me something to run the damned OS, and keep upgrading it.

And as much as I like Hans de Ruiter, I'm freaking tired of being upstaged by him. I REALLY think we need to raise a bounty for Frank, Mark, and Michal.
Graphics are the core of any Amiga-like OS.

And on Reggae, it is showing its age, but a little work could prevent the need for a radical change.

You know, thinking on my last comments, a melding of our OS' isn't that sensible.
MorphOS and its micro kernel really aren't that Amiga like, just Abox with its 3.1 API compatibility.
As an old Microware OS9 68K user, it's my opinion that MorphOS is BETTER than AmigaOS.

And MorphOS NG will reinforce this. It's time to stop standing in the shadow of an inferior product.

This doesn't alter my opinion that it's time to drop the adversarial bullshit.

But Red is right, let's get on with it. Power9, X64, whatever. If we need funding, let's raise it, or find it.
I want a real OS so I don't have to make apologetic excuses to rude jerks like Steve Ferrels.

And the base for this has been there a long time, from the earliest work done by Ralph and Frank.

A good, clean, light, micro kernel based OS with modern features running on commodity hardware would be pretty unique.
And in my opinion, more in line with the spirit of what Jay Miner intended then the retread of OS3.1 that OS4 is.

But again, can't we all still get along?


[ Edited by Jim 21.05.2019 - 07:58 ]

@Jim

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That would be great. It will be nice to meet you in person. I am good friends with Paul and Dave, although he did not attend last year. I hope all can make it this year.

[ Edited by amigakit 21.05.2019 - 13:17 ]

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C-A Acquisition has "Amiga" and "Powered By Amiga" registered (euipo)

In the U.S. recently Itec LLC withdrew their objection to the "Amiga" trademark:
Source

Hyperion's objection remains suspended

In addition:
Amiga, not Cloanto or the acquisition company, owns the trademarks.
The above quote from both the brief summary link and the legal doc link I offered on eab.

So there is a difference between ownership and registration as seen by the uspto filings and there is contention about ownership in general from the recent court decision.
Feel free to disagree.

#6

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Yeah, didn't make it last year myself, but Paul, Dave and I all worked with Mark Olsen to arrange the MorphOS X5000 demo.

It was a last minute thing, arranged in a couple of weeks. Dave donated his table, I discussed the idea over with Mark and sent Paul a couple of video cards, and Paul lugged his X5000 equipped with a MorphOS beta to AmiWest.

I could be a nice diversion to make it there this year, but its still kind of iffy.

And I'm trying to dig up some old Delmar Company promo literature so I can show you guys what we used to build.

>>> Reggae could be upgraded or replaced.

>> Replaced by what?

> Reggae [...] is showing its age, but a little work
> could prevent the need for a radical change.

Reggae is already a radical change from the AmigaOS datatypes concept used in MorphOS 1.x. Even if there're no developer resources to further enhance it, it's better to leave as is for the time being than to replace it with ...with what exactly? And wouldn't creating a replacement draw at least as much developer resources as enhancing Reggae?

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Yes, I'd rather see a focus on graphics, and I'm sure Red would like to see resources devoted to the ISA switch.

>>> Reggae [...] is showing its age, but a little work
>>> could prevent the need for a radical change.

>> Reggae is already a radical change from the AmigaOS datatypes concept
>> used in MorphOS 1.x. Even if there're no developer resources to further
>> enhance it, it's better to leave as is for the time being than to replace
>> it with ...with what exactly? And wouldn't creating a replacement draw
>> at least as much developer resources as enhancing Reggae?

> Yes [...]

So now you suddenly don't think any longer that Reggae needs to be replaced or radically changed if it cannot be enhanced for the time being?