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It's a valid point. We even shot down Coldfire, an the Atari community moved forward a built a Coldfire based board.
Since the source code out to be available for 3.1.4, a Coldfire port is entirely possible, what code couldn't be recompile could be run via 68K emulation at speeds at least competitive with our best hardware.

But, we do have several FPGA, not just the Vampire.
And some of those can run several different cores.

PPC is still hobbling along, but the introduction of a P1022 board will, at least in my opinion, weaken rather than strengthen that option.

WE still have the option of supporting late 2005 G5 PowerMacs and G5 iMacs.

And there is always Power9, if we want full legacy compatibility, or the promised X64 fork, which could keep our price of entry low.

OS4 itself is relatively inexpensive (MorphOS. While quite affordable, is slightly more expensive.
But then, my Quad G5 cost about half what Tabor is projected to cost and would perform better in many areas (especially memory bandwidth) than an X5000.

> OS4.2? Yeah, they'll probably use that number, but I doubt
> the feature list will be as extensive as previously claimed.

If even Hyperion's own technical director shares your doubt, then what can possibly go wrong? ;-)

> Do you really think Ralph and Frank didn't see OS3.1 source code
> before MorphOS was created?

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7824&forum=3&start=1 (3rd link) :-)

> Bill was also apparently made inquiries into Amiga DE.
> Don't know if he's mentioned that either.

Yes, see our discussion in comments #170 to #175.

> Yesterday I saw a Commodore 64 thread on AmigaWorld hijacked by a [...]
> "Don't buy this, it's based on crappy Linux, wait for this REAL hardware!!!"
> nonsense. [...] it's unlikely most of it would ever reach any of scale production.

One of the two alternatives he proposed is already for sale so wouldn't require waiting.

> [...] Commodore fanboys never get to reboot their retro scene [...] because
> they're a bunch of intolerant unlikeable assholes who don't deserve shit

Better don't let redrumloa (see comment #481) read this ;-P

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I've got popcorn. I could use a drink!
And Andreas has brought up Dave's second hand BS supposedly from Andy Finkle.
I doubt anything from AmigaOS wad incorporated into MorphOS...but, did anyone have a chance to view AmigaOS source code?
To me, that seems quite likely.

Oh, and Andreas is probably right about not inflaming the sentiments of the Commodore fanatics.

I think the argument that this could degenerate into an unbelievable gordian knot of litigious BS is valid. And OS4 might end up an unrecoverable asset.

> We even shot down Coldfire

Shot down? The Elbox Dragon was real and demonstrated in public in 2006 reaching 68030 level performance with OS3.

> Since the source code out to be available for 3.1.4,
> a Coldfire port is entirely possible

Possible maybe, but idiotic. Hyperion offer OS4.1 for PPC and OS3.1.4 for m68k. What would be the target group and point of OS3.1.4 additionally compiled for ColdFire?

> what code couldn't be recompile could be run via 68K emulation
> at speeds at least competitive with our best hardware.

What does "our best hardware" mean? 68060? 68080?

> there is always [...] the promised X64 fork

The MorphOS team might object to this wording ;-)

> OS4 itself is relatively inexpensive (MorphOS [...] is slightly more expensive.

Slightly? For most hardware, MorphOS is 2.7 times as expensive as OS4.

> Quad G5 [...] would perform better in many areas (especially memory bandwidth)
> than an X5000.

Actually, it performs better than the X5000 in all areas except integer performance.

> Andreas has brought up Dave's second hand BS supposedly from Andy Finkle.

Actually, I did not.

> did anyone have a chance to view AmigaOS source code?

You mean before it started circulating (again) 3½ years ago? If yes, see comment #1027.

Thanks certainly looked like a reference about McEwen and Haynie's unsupported statements, how am I misreading that?

And Coldfire? It's only real advantage is an extremely low price. And if was going to pick something that I might code on with anything other than C or Python...I'd pick the CPU that was more similar to the 68K ISA.
Look, the Atari community didn't have a problem adopting a change that required recompilation or 68K JIT.

And the planned forking of MorphOS to the X64 ISA...if it wasn't for high level coding that would be such an alien environment.

OS3.1 source code floating around before broad dissemination in 2016?
Seems likely.

Oh, and that 68080 designation just bugs me. You mean the 68K based FPGA design?
Look, Signetics already screwed up the 68070 designation, so now the hobbyists are going to simply assume the next logically number in that sequence? OK. Whatever.

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<cough>Complete and utter bullshit.</cough>

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At the very least, it sure would be nice if people stopped posting wild baseless accusations and presenting them as facts.

Given that - as graciously pointed out to us lowly MorphZone visitors - you have an undergraduate degree in business, attended at least one legal course, and even know and have talked to attorneys in person, I have to assume you are familiar with the term "libel."

> certainly looked like a reference about McEwen and Haynie's
> unsupported statements

There were no such statements by McEwen, at least not in public.

> how am I misreading that?

By ignoring the "3rd link" part of my answer. That 3rd link is about something that happened in 1997, so before MorphOS development even started

> Coldfire? It's only real advantage is an extremely low price.

I don't consider 40 to 50 USD (depending on order quantity) for a 266 MHz V4e (as used on the FireBee) "an extremely low price" when only 15 USD more can get you an e5500 with 4 times the clock rate and the same requirement for recompilation and emulation.

> if was going to pick something that I might code on with anything other than
> C or Python...I'd pick the CPU that was more similar to the 68K ISA.

There are hundreds more high-level languages than just C and Python, for none of which the programmer has to care about the CPU's ISA. It's really just ASM where the ISA counts from programmer's view.

> the Atari community didn't have a problem adopting a change that required
> recompilation or 68K JIT.

Neither had those members of the Amiga community who adopted OS4 or MorphOS. I really don't get the alleged advantage of ColdFire over PPC in this regard. And as with the number of PPC adopters among the Amiga community, the Atari community is orders of magnitude larger than the small number of its members who purchased a FireBee.

> OS3.1 source code floating around before broad dissemination in 2016?
> Seems likely.

When Petro Tyschtschenko was in charge during the 2nd half of the 1990s, he was reported handing out the 3.1 source code left, right and center, or so they say ;-)

> that 68080 designation just bugs me. You mean the 68K based FPGA design?

Yes, I mean the Apollo core when I write "68080". This was part of a yet unanswered question as to the meaning of an ambiguous wording you used ("our best hardware").

> Signetics already screwed up the 68070 designation, so now the hobbyists
> are going to simply assume the next logically number in that sequence?

Even worse, the 68080 forebears were called the N68050 and N68070 during NatAmi times :-)

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Even if it were true (and it's not - Commodore worked with Phase5, not handed them source), it's a bit like saying "The developers of Fallout 4 might have seen bits of the original Doom 1993 source, therefore Fallout 4 is pirated".

Which is also quite on the irony scale given that the lawsuit here being discussed is about Hyperion very definitely using AmigaOS source directly to produce an illegal derivative.

> Commodore worked with Phase5, not handed them source

Regarding the "source" debate, I think we're more talking Escom era here rather than Commodore era.

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That certain makes sense.

And as to Andre's concerns over libel, I never made an absolute statement. I phrased it as a question. So yes, I'm quite familiar with the concepts of libel and slander.
And I'm not the least bit worried about it.

Again, how do we know the Phase5 employees never saw AmigaOS code?
They did build a pretty impressive addition to the code base, which might not have been possible without some help or additional information (Commodore, Escom, whomever).

But to state they did, hey I'm not going there. Even 'Hazey' Dave only suggests it via hearsay, which IS total BS.

On the price of Coldfire cpus, at one point I was offer V4 cpus for $17 in quantities of 300 minimum.

The only thing that beats that is some ARM cpus.

Although there was a neat X86 Soc introduced recently that is meant for embedded use that is really cheap.

BTW - I can deal with adversarial responses from Andre (who can be painfully formal at times), but the rest of you ought to know by now who's side I'm on in the debate.

And a to that 'mere' four years of education, again I finished the BS degree after 180 credits at other institutions.

And again, I'm pretty sure I'm more familiar with the US legal system than most of you.
They are going to try to 'interpret' this case. Their going to try to judge the case based on an understanding of the accepted definitions of the wording used in the underlying legal documents.

Language in contract law can be a slippery matter, suing a lawyer over a contractual matter?
It's an bold action anyway.

Mike obviously believes he has a case.
Guess we'll just have to watch how this works out.

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I'd be interested in gaining an understanding about this.
Since these 2 cases are both slated for jury trial, how would the judge handle it?

#6

Yes, that will add an uncertainty factor to the proceedings that will make it more interesting.

Also, thinking about it, I've kind of answered my own 'how do we know' question.
Because the parties involved say they didn't.
And I trust them at their word.

> the Phase5 employees [...] did build a pretty impressive addition to the code base

Addition to the actual 3.1 code base or addition to a reimplementation of the 3.1 code base? ;-)

> at one point I was offer V4 cpus for $17 in quantities of 300 minimum.

Yes, that's normal V4 pricing. However, V4 lacks both FPU and MMU, so not really suited. Even the V4m, which is between V4 and V4e in price, lacks FPU. When I find going ColdFire V4e idiotic, it's only plausible that I'd find going V4 or V4m completely bonkers.

> The only thing that beats that is some ARM cpus.

Even e5500's price per performance/features is lower than ColdFire V4's. Comparing prices without taking performances and features into account doesn't make sense.

Good points.
Personally, I rather liked the V5 Coldfire cpus, available as salvaged parts, but they aren't well documented.

And we are using PPCs, so your point about NXP's first 64bit core makes sense.

Also, the CPU is only part of the equation.

And if we want to drop prices even lower (again w/o an mmu or GPU) I can grap CMOS 68HC000FN20s for about $4.00.

Really, for our purposes, only using something reasonably powerful makes sense.
So up to X64 (or Power9) seems only right.

I'm just spending my weekend playing around with old retro stuff that defies reasonable arguments based on performance or economics.

And worse yet, now I've completely derailed this thread.

So out of curiosity, when are these trials set to resume?
Pity that this case is being heard in Washington State, if it was in Delaware there might be an opportunity to find out more about it.

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the latest amended schedule

the "why" part of that

#6

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Oh my. Now there is some serious drama. That could really affect the entire matter. Thanks.

OK, Hyperion may now be the entity finding itself in a less than desirable settlement outcome.

Thanks for pulling me back on track and giving me the links to understand this better.

@thread

Return of the tick

Also curious. Not my field. Was it ever announced or explained why Amigakit LLC is no more as of few month ago?

Amigakit LTD.

#6

> if we want to drop prices even lower (again w/o an mmu or GPU)

GPU isn't important, FPU is.

> I can grap CMOS 68HC000FN20s for about $4.00.

Or why not use an 8-bit MCU for a fraction of a dollar? ;-)

> Return of the tick

This happened in October 2018, IIRC.

> Amigakit LLC is no more as of few month ago

"AmigaKit LLC" was last mentioned in 2011 or so, I think. It has been Leaman Computing Ltd. (incorporated in 2009, still active today) using "AmigaKit" as a mere label after that.

> Amigakit LTD.

Thanks. Interesting. So it's 4 companies now.

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Which Leaman Computing Ltd. do you refer to?
This one?

#6

From my limited knowledge of UK company law, an LLC is better for small "self-employed" companies while a Ltd is better for larger entities.

As 2010 was around the time A-Eon realised that Hyperion was no longer going to help them with OS4 and they started taking on developers of their own, I'm guessing that having a few programmers on the books prompted the change for tax reasons.

Merely a guess.

An LLC is a Limited Liability Company in the UK.

There is no difference really other than LLC being a term that seems to be used mostly in the USA.