>> AmigaOS 3.1 is mentioned directly and indirectly ("the Software") 28 times
>> throughout the settlement agreement.

> Only so far as a codebase to further OS4 development.

No, see the direct quotes from the settlement agreement in comments #411 and #811. And yes, Hyperion's subsequent press release says something else (see comments #105 and #559), contradicting the settlement agreement. That's the base of the "wording vs. spirit" debate.

For direct comparison, here the relevant passages from the settlement agreement (emphasis mine):

"[...] grant Hyperion [...] an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide and royalty-free, transferable right and Object Code and Source Code license to the Software in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market the Software in any form [...], on any medium [...], through any means (including but not limited to making AmigaOS 4 available to the public via the internet) and for any current or future hardware platform." and ""AmigaOS 4" means the Operating System developed by Hyperion and based in part on the Software, including without limitation the Software Architecture of the Software as described in the Documentation, in any version (irrespective of version numbering, e.g., AmigaOS 5)."

...and here the relevant passage from the Hyperion press release (emphasis mine):

"Hyperion is granted an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide right to AmigaOS 3.1 in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market AmigaOS 4.x (and subsequent versions of AmigaOS including without limitation AmigaOS 5)"

See what they did there?

Quote:

Doesn't it though.
I am greatly relieved.

And a few months ago, hearing Bill Buck make positive statements regarding Aeon, and at the very least neutral statements about Ben Hermans, while still insisting "we could still all pull this together if we just cooperated"...

Well, I think we all need some perspective.
Mike B. at Cloanto now owns the Amiga trademarks.
Ben definately holds the only license to develop from OS3.1 source code.

Aeon has an excellent contractor designing its boards (I've known Paul longer than I've known Trevor).
And Roberto Innocenti has managed to come to an agreement with Acube to help design a T2080 based laptop motherboard.
While Raptor Engineering stands poised to introduced an affordable consumer oriented Power9 based motherboard.

Things actually look better for Amiga NG then they did when Hyperion and Amiga Inc were at odds and Bill was making wild statements about specs for systems that were supposed to be designed by Ack Systems.

BTW - The specs for the best system McEwen quoted were surpassed by the X1000.

We live, we grow.

Heck, if I can, I might just have to come to Sacramento this Fall.
Hang out with AmigaDave and Acill.
Who know how long any of us has, but shouldn't we be working toward something positive?

Red/Jim - That last quote "Just because they cater for other "variants" of AmigaOS (not based on original source-code although there is some debate about that), does not exclude them from supporting the project."

Sure the "there is some debate about that" is a snipe.
But the statement in its entirety invites us to participate in OS4 development. Isn't that what Mark did when he wrote the network driver for Aeon? Or when Fab opened up his Odyssey source code to the community? And what about developers that span multiple NG OS'?

An OS5, opened up to public development with elements of both MorphOS and OS4 would be interesting. You wouldn't need the Friedens' kernel, the MorphOS micro kernel is better, you could choose between Reaction and MUI, Workbench and Ambient (or even Scalos). Some of the parts of MorphOS that need work (graphics specifically) could be improved, while Reggae could be upgraded or replaced.
And we could include 64 bit, SMP, memory protection in a box that would not preclude the running of OS4 or MorphOS PPC boxes concurrently.

Look even if this never happens, I'm going to look into VM solutions that will allow MorphOS to run concurrently with other operating systems.

The hardware is getting powerful enough now that some systems like the Blackbird should eventually be able to emulate PowerMacs, SAM460s, or the X5000 with ease and plenty of threads to spare (so concurrent OS4, MorphOS, Linux, BSD, etc. - its almost inevitable).

Sure, X64 is the way to go, but unlike you I'm not likely to look back at OS3.1 as the primary legacy software I want to run. Most of that can be run on my CD32 with an SX1. I'm going to want to fool around with PPC software under a variety of OS'.

Of course, that will likely be secondary to my use of MorphOS NG/X64 (hopefully on a Zen based platform).

[ Edited by Jim 21.05.2019 - 07:26 ]

> Mike B. at Cloanto now owns the Amiga trademarks.

Looking closer, it's a little more complicated:
- US-based Cloanto Corp. (as opposed to Italy-based Cloanto IT srl) owns the AmigaOS 3.1 copyright.
- C-A Acquisition owns the Amiga trademarks.
- Mike Battilana is majority owner of Cloanto IT srl, Cloanto Corp. and C-A Acquisition.

> Aeon has an excellent contractor designing its boards
> (I've known Paul longer than I've known Trevor).

Make that "had" instead of "has". Both Paul and Adam left Ultra Varisys years ago. And even Ultra Varisys is no more AFAIK, it's just the parent Ultra Electronics / Ultra PCS (Precision Control Systems) now. Of course, A-Eon may try to commission Ultra for any future board design.

> The specs for the best system McEwen quoted were surpassed by the X1000.

...except in terms of CPU clock rate, non-PEG PCIe slots and Ethernet :-)

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7183&forum=3&start=1003

> You wouldn't need the Friedens' kernel

It's been Trevor's kernel for a while, mind you :-)

> the MorphOS micro kernel is better

...but not very Amiga-like, that's why it needs the A-Box running on top providing an Amiga-like environment (including Amiga Exec reimplementation), whereas ExecSG does not.

> Reggae could be upgraded or replaced.

Replaced by what?

> Blackbird should eventually be able to emulate PowerMacs, SAM460s,
> or the X5000 with ease and plenty of threads to spare

Full emulation should work but is rather slow. CPU virtualization is hindered by the Book3s vs. Book3e issue, so while virtualizing G4/MPC74xx on POWER9 works (as shown with QEMU/KVM-PR on Talos II), virtualizing PPC4x0 or e5500 on POWER9 does not. Furthermore, there is no Cyrus/X5000 emulation target yet.

Well...we always have our own roadmap, and legacy CPU emulation was not ruled out, it's just a matter of developer resources.

In the meanwhile I'm playing around with late 2005 PowerMac G5s, trying to decide how powerful a Zen2 system I want build should be, and prepping for entry into an MBA program.

As always, my main focus with MorphOS has been the promotion of improved video capabilities.
I'm not an ISA fanatic, and don't favor X64 or PPC.
Just give me something to run the damned OS, and keep upgrading it.

And as much as I like Hans de Ruiter, I'm freaking tired of being upstaged by him. I REALLY think we need to raise a bounty for Frank, Mark, and Michal.
Graphics are the core of any Amiga-like OS.

And on Reggae, it is showing its age, but a little work could prevent the need for a radical change.

You know, thinking on my last comments, a melding of our OS' isn't that sensible.
MorphOS and its micro kernel really aren't that Amiga like, just Abox with its 3.1 API compatibility.
As an old Microware OS9 68K user, it's my opinion that MorphOS is BETTER than AmigaOS.

And MorphOS NG will reinforce this. It's time to stop standing in the shadow of an inferior product.

This doesn't alter my opinion that it's time to drop the adversarial bullshit.

But Red is right, let's get on with it. Power9, X64, whatever. If we need funding, let's raise it, or find it.
I want a real OS so I don't have to make apologetic excuses to rude jerks like Steve Ferrels.

And the base for this has been there a long time, from the earliest work done by Ralph and Frank.

A good, clean, light, micro kernel based OS with modern features running on commodity hardware would be pretty unique.
And in my opinion, more in line with the spirit of what Jay Miner intended then the retread of OS3.1 that OS4 is.

But again, can't we all still get along?


[ Edited by Jim 21.05.2019 - 07:58 ]

@Jim

Quote:

That would be great. It will be nice to meet you in person. I am good friends with Paul and Dave, although he did not attend last year. I hope all can make it this year.

[ Edited by amigakit 21.05.2019 - 13:17 ]

Quote:

C-A Acquisition has "Amiga" and "Powered By Amiga" registered (euipo)

In the U.S. recently Itec LLC withdrew their objection to the "Amiga" trademark:
Source

Hyperion's objection remains suspended

In addition:
Amiga, not Cloanto or the acquisition company, owns the trademarks.
The above quote from both the brief summary link and the legal doc link I offered on eab.

So there is a difference between ownership and registration as seen by the uspto filings and there is contention about ownership in general from the recent court decision.
Feel free to disagree.

#6

Quote:

Yeah, didn't make it last year myself, but Paul, Dave and I all worked with Mark Olsen to arrange the MorphOS X5000 demo.

It was a last minute thing, arranged in a couple of weeks. Dave donated his table, I discussed the idea over with Mark and sent Paul a couple of video cards, and Paul lugged his X5000 equipped with a MorphOS beta to AmiWest.

I could be a nice diversion to make it there this year, but its still kind of iffy.

And I'm trying to dig up some old Delmar Company promo literature so I can show you guys what we used to build.

>>> Reggae could be upgraded or replaced.

>> Replaced by what?

> Reggae [...] is showing its age, but a little work
> could prevent the need for a radical change.

Reggae is already a radical change from the AmigaOS datatypes concept used in MorphOS 1.x. Even if there're no developer resources to further enhance it, it's better to leave as is for the time being than to replace it with ...with what exactly? And wouldn't creating a replacement draw at least as much developer resources as enhancing Reggae?

Quote:

Yes, I'd rather see a focus on graphics, and I'm sure Red would like to see resources devoted to the ISA switch.

>>> Reggae [...] is showing its age, but a little work
>>> could prevent the need for a radical change.

>> Reggae is already a radical change from the AmigaOS datatypes concept
>> used in MorphOS 1.x. Even if there're no developer resources to further
>> enhance it, it's better to leave as is for the time being than to replace
>> it with ...with what exactly? And wouldn't creating a replacement draw
>> at least as much developer resources as enhancing Reggae?

> Yes [...]

So now you suddenly don't think any longer that Reggae needs to be replaced or radically changed if it cannot be enhanced for the time being?

Quote:

Not if it diverts resources from other more important priorities.
Then again, I've waffled back and forth on several posts.
Focus on 3D for the Terascale cards or develop GCN drivers?
Move to X64 or Power9?

Hey, after hearing about Spectre660's experience with AmigaKit's product support on his X5000 RMA...all I'm certain about is that I'm sticking with my Macs and the next hardware I'm buying will be Ryzen 3000 based.

I'm slowly moving toward redrumloa's position.
Except that I believe we could start MorphOS NG development on PCIe based PPC systems like the late 2005 PowerMac G5s.

But new commodity hardware is going to eventually be necessary.

Depending on what MorphOS4 will actually either all or none G5
would be suitable.

Quote:

True.
I'm enjoying fooling around with the quad G5, but I've scrapped my AGP G5s and only have redrumloa's G4 as a desktop system (I do have an iBook, but haven't updated the OS recently).

G5's would allow us to retain 68K JIT, but then that could be built into an X64 version if there were adequate resources (as could PPC emulation).
And the G5 path would make migrating to Power9 a natural course.

BUT, the roadmap was announced awhile ago, >X64.

I think I'll just enjoy what I've got and wait and see what happens.

And moving back toward an integration with the Amiga community? I think that was a kumbaya moment induced by a relief of the tension I've been under recently.

>> So now you suddenly don't think any longer that Reggae needs to be
>> replaced or radically changed if it cannot be enhanced for the time being?

> Not if it diverts resources from other more important priorities.

Fair enough. It just seems to me that in your opinion there must be something conceptionally bad with Reggae as I cannot believe your proposal of having it replaced came out of nowhere.

> I believe we could start MorphOS NG development on PCIe based PPC systems
> like the late 2005 PowerMac G5s.

You mean they haven't started yet? ;-)

Quote:

We all know work has been done. Heck, most of the work for our current PPC systems is done on X64 hardware to reduce compile times.
And Geit know a lot more than he is telling (and as I've said before, I don't ask Mark about things that ought to be left private).

Why do you guys think I want us to pool together and buy Mark a better motherboard and processor?
With a 16 core 32 thread Rzyen2 his compile times would be a fraction of what they were on his old FM2+ based system.
Remember, less time to compile means faster results, quicker testing, more productivity.

OK, my guess, there is probably a straight X86 port of MorphOS PPC in the developers hands.
No doubt there is ongoing discussion about what needs to e enhanced and how.

And a lot of the developers you don't hear from that often are still active.
I exchanged messages with Ralph a couple of years ago on a registration issue, finding out that he was still fielding those questions.
Reassuring as Quark will probably need some tweaking.

And suggestions...keep posting them.
You never know what might show up in a future release.

I asked for the ability to use PC video cards, because my company used to hard code drivers for ET4000 based video cards, bypassing the bios, so that we could use them on our 68K based system. But that limited us to cards that all mapped I/O to the same addresses (luckily most did).
Mark surpassed that with the X1950Pro AGP card I sent him (which he used on his G5), and used AMD's built-in Atom bios to access PC Radeon card features.
And since then, well, we can use any card we have a driver for that supports Atom bios.
The guy is amazing (and a good friend, a good man actually, I have the utmost respect for him).

I have no doubt that Pega-1 (or what is that new name Frank has been using?), Bigfoot, and Keiro have been in communication.

Mark has done some massive work in the last two years, and this is in his spare time, while he's still working hard at his full time job often jetting between Europe and South Africa.
When we ask him for his spare time consider this, he already works hard (as do all of our developers), AND it take time away from his family.
And Mark's relation there is one of the things that I've always admired about him.
Not many men move to another hemisphere out of love.

We've all asked for SMP, memory protection, and other features (better video card support, improved OpenGL support, etc).

Here's one from me. Expand Ambient into something similar to a hypervisor that can composite windows from multiple boxes/VMs/OS'.

Imagine being able to display Linux processes, MorphOS windows, Windows displays, and other processes all tiled, overlapped or whatever all on the same screen.
It could be done.
And it would freak out the OS4 and AROS community.

The thing most of you are forgetting (since you've spent SO much time focused on Abox) is that MorphOS is the only NG OS that has the potential to grow into a real viable, modern commercial product.
We don't have to completely divorce ourselves from the Amiga.
But what's the term in Linux? Depreciate?

Yeah, something like that.
We need to focus on MorphOS.

Because the sideshow circus that Amiga has degenerated into, if we are associated with it, will make us look like mentally deficient retards, instead of what we are.
The last remnants of the more competent part of the community.

No offense to other out there.
There are some good OS4 programmers.
Han de Ruiter comes to mind.

They're just working on the wrong OS.

I'm doing all MorphOS development on G5 2.3 PCie and MacMini 1.42GHz

> I have no doubt that Pega-1 (or what is that new name Frank has been using?),

https://morph.zone/userinfo.php?uid=196 (which btw is his old handle he already used in the 1990s)

> Bigfoot, and Keiro have been in communication.

That would be nice. Kiero is hard to reach these days, they say.

Michal? Yes, that is what Mark said, very hard to contact.
And when Mark says he needs someone's help, I'd be willing to bet he's quite a skilled programmer.
It first came up when we were discussing Vulkan.

That would still be a neat addition. Especially considering how well that runs on AMD cards.

Dumping here instead of making a new thread.

Number6, you know anything about this?

Quote:

Source

I asked Fiery Phoenix where he got this information in that thread. I don't follow these things like you do. Does Cloanto own most Commodore 8bit IP these days? Logos, trademarks? Is there still another entity giving out licenses?

Quote:

I can only comment on the trademarks, since that is what I looked into for years. You'll recall the older history...C=Holdings B.V. prevailed in their lawsuit against Asiarim and Asiarim's licenses to Manomio and CommodoreUSA were terminated as part of the result.

Since then:

2 links at bottom should bring us current

3 links at bottom relate to who filed this action

It is entirely possible that C=Holdings B.V. and/or Polabe Holdings N.V. have since licensed their trademarks. I haven't looked into that.

#6

> Does Cloanto own most Commodore 8bit IP these days? Logos, trademarks?

In the course of Escom's demise, the Commodore trademarks were split from the rest, i.e. the Commodore copyrights and patents and the Amiga trademarks, copyrights and patents. The Commodore trademarks went to Tulip whereas the rest went to Gateway. Cloanto and C-A Acquisition inherited through numerous stopovers from Gateway (bar the Amiga patents), so they do not own the Commodore trademarks. As to the current state of the Commodore trademark lineage, number6 posted various comments/links in this thread (and possibly others).

@redrumloa

re:your post 876

Commodore talk will take us a bit far off-topic, nevertheless I stumbled onto this in relation to your post and links referring to Steve Wilcox and Elite Systems.

interesting read

The entire escapade from all the companies either marketting apparel, claiming rights or stating their intent to market is quite ludicrous, imo. Clearly it is open season on abuse of both Commodore and Amiga IP these days.

Oh, now there is this too:
Source

#6

Quote:

Document now available

#6

I don't know if Cloanto can win on the argument of Ben using Monard, but it's going to hurt Monard in the pocket if every potential client can google them and find what they've been up to.

He never should have gotten Hyperion and Monard mixed. He never should have tried to take on Amiga Inc. He should have given up when OS4 flopped. He never should have signed anything with Amiga Inc. He should have given up when PPC Linux gaming flopped.

But he didn't.

> Document now available

What's "Kickstart 3.1.3" and "AmigaOS 3.1.3" mentioned on pages 11 and 17, respectively?