Cloanto sues Hyperion
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10019 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > you were the same person who scoffed at me a couple years back when I mentioned
    > HYPErion were blatantly pirating Cloanto IP and Cloanto would sue them.

    I just reviewed every single MorphZone comment where you or me mentioned Cloanto and I didn't find anything resembling what you described. Needless to say that I don't remember such either. Do you have a link, in case I missed anything?
  • »27.12.17 - 20:29
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 838 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    If Andreas can't remember it - didn't happen.
  • »27.12.17 - 20:37
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cego
    Posts: 584 from 2006/5/28
    From: Germany
    any news about MorphOS 3.10? You know, that nice thing we all love to use and patiently wait for?
    Powerbook G4@1,67GHz, 2GB DDR2 Ram, Radeon 9700, 60GB SSD, MorphOS 3.7
    PowerMac Dual G5 @2.3GHz, 4GB DDR Ram, Radeon 9600XT, 2x250GB HD, MorphOS 3.7, MacOS X Leopard 10.5.8
  • »27.12.17 - 21:45
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1261 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    I just reviewed every single MorphZone comment where you or me mentioned Cloanto and I didn't find anything resembling what you described. Needless to say that I don't remember such either. Do you have a link, in case I missed anything?


    I'm not finding it in a few searches. I seem to remember it was something along the lines of "I fail to see how this proves friction between Hyperion and Cloanto".

    Either way, this popcorn time will provide you with new bookmarks very soon I'm sure.
  • »27.12.17 - 22:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10019 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I seem to remember it was something along the lines of "I fail
    > to see how this proves friction between Hyperion and Cloanto".

    Still doesn't ring a bell with me. Which pre-2016 incident would "this" refer to?
  • »27.12.17 - 23:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2515 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    I just reviewed every single MorphZone comment where you or me mentioned Cloanto and I didn't find anything resembling what you described. Needless to say that I don't remember such either. Do you have a link, in case I missed anything?


    I'm not finding it in a few searches. I seem to remember it was something along the lines of "I fail to see how this proves friction between Hyperion and Cloanto".

    Either way, this popcorn time will provide you with new bookmarks very soon I'm sure.


    It was probably me red, sounds like a comment I might have made, although it doesn't surprise me one little bit that Hyperion would sue anyone for a nickel (including his own mother), or that Hyperion would act in a way that would cause a lawsuit to be filed against them. That's just how lawyers think and act 24/7.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »27.12.17 - 23:21
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    stephen_robinson
    Posts: 742 from 2007/4/22
    Quote:

    Cego wrote:
    any news about MorphOS 3.10? You know, that nice thing we all love to use and patiently wait for?


    Well it's 18 months since the 3.10 MorphOS Software Development Kit.

    Maybe that should be MortOS 3.10.

    See what I did there?
  • »28.12.17 - 11:31
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1859 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Cego schrieb:
    any news about MorphOS 3.10? You know, that nice thing we all love to use and patiently wait for?


    And while we are patiently (more or less at least) waiting we pass the time talking about the latest gossip in Amigaland to shorten the waiting...
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »28.12.17 - 12:37
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 211 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > 2015 is not before the infringement started

    It is, according to Cloanto's statements in the complaint. 2016 is when the infringement started according to Cloanto. I'm sure you understand that I take Cloanto's word over yours in this matter.


    I always found what follows to have been potentially troublesome, especially given the lawsuit filing:

    Manomio

    Links within the above posting no longer function, so:
    The announcement by Hyperion

    The public story on Manomio

    Given the dates, I'd say (choose whichever term you like -"disagreements" or "infringements") began much earlier than what the lawsuit publically indicates. We shall see.

    (replaced Hyperion blog link with Hyperion home page link)

    #6
  • »29.12.17 - 14:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10019 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I'd say (choose whichever term you like -"disagreements" or "infringements")
    > began much earlier than what the lawsuit publically indicates.

    Yes, see my comment #25. The very first OS4 release to include Amiga Kickstart ROM images was AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 released in December 2011:

    http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php/news/36-amigaos-4x/146-amigaos41update4
    http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=562

    However, according to the linked statements, these were Kickstart 3.x images only, the inclusion of which Cloanto doesn‘t really seem to take offense with in their complaint. It‘s the inclusion of Kickstart 1.3 images which Cloanto says renders the OS4 media "Infringing CDROMs". So the question is (mine anyway): Which was the very first OS4 release to include Kickstart 1.3 images?
    If the Cinemaware games offered by Hyperion after the AmigaOS 4.1 Update 6 release also work with Kickstart 3.x, then this won‘t help answer the question.
  • »29.12.17 - 15:19
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 217 from 2015/6/30
    list "RAM Disk:Update 4/Files_NoArch/Emulation/AmigaROMs/"
    Directory "RAM Disk:Update 4/Files_NoArch/Emulation/AmigaROMs" on Friday 29-Dec-17
    Kickstart-CD32-extra-40.60.rom 524288 ----rw-d 20-Nov-11 15:51:16
    Kickstart-CD32-40.60.rom 524288 ----rw-d 19-Nov-11 12:27:22
    Kickstart-A1200-40.68.rom 524288 ----rw-d 08-Nov-11 21:29:02
    Kickstart-34.4.rom 262144 ----rw-d 08-Nov-11 21:28:38
    4 files - 1792K bytes - 120 blocks used
  • »29.12.17 - 17:14
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1261 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    number6 wrote:

    I always found what follows to have been potentially troublesome, especially given the lawsuit filing:

    Manomio

    Links within the above posting no longer function, so:
    The announcement by Hyperion

    The public story on Manomio

    Given the dates, I'd say (choose whichever term you like -"disagreements" or "infringements") began much earlier than what the lawsuit publically indicates. We shall see.

    (replaced Hyperion blog link with Hyperion home page link)

    #6


    Great info as always and thanks for the confirmation.
  • »29.12.17 - 18:06
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 217 from 2015/6/30
    Kickstart-34.4.rom is a 1.3 rom version.
    Included in AmigOS 4.1 Update 4, released for download 22 December 2011 .


    [ Edited by Spectre660 29.12.2017 - 14:19 ]
  • »29.12.17 - 18:18
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 422 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Hyperion's "It's not piracy if WE do it" attitude has finally bitten back. Just think of how long Cloanto must have chafed about the ROM being on official OS4 CD, until Hyperion's (i.e. Ben's) IP-trolling behavior on trademarks finally pushed them over the edge.

    Ben's arrogance is so dense and expensive it should be on the periodic table. Make a space for it between something really expensive and horribly radioactive.
  • »29.12.17 - 19:10
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  • rob
  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 95 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Hyperion's "It's not piracy if WE do it" attitude has finally bitten back. Just think of how long Cloanto must have chafed about the ROM being on official OS4 CD, until Hyperion's (i.e. Ben's) IP-trolling behavior on trademarks finally pushed them over the edge.

    Ben's arrogance is so dense and expensive it should be on the periodic table. Make a space for it between something really expensive and horribly radioactive.


    Surely someone must have reviewed the contents of the CD prior Cloanto selling it in the form of a downloadable ISO. Does the fact that Cloanto previously sold the infringing product have any bearing on the strength of their argument?

    Cloanto are claiming that Hyperion committed a material breach of the 2009 settlement agreement with the inclusion of the 1.3 because it displays the word Amiga, which Hyperion do not have permission to use. I'm not sure where Cloanto's lawyers are trying to go with this. Wouldn't the Amiga parties have get a court ruling on the existence of such a breach in order for the agreement to be terminated?

    What are peoples views on Cloanto registering the Amiga trademark? I can imagine there would have been one hell of a shit storm on the forums if it was Hyperion that decided to take control of the brand in such a manner.
  • »29.12.17 - 20:04
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 422 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    Surely someone must have reviewed the contents of the CD prior Cloanto selling it in the form of a downloadable ISO. Does the fact that Cloanto previously sold the infringing product have any bearing on the strength of their argument?

    Cloanto are claiming that Hyperion committed a material breach of the 2009 settlement agreement with the inclusion of the 1.3 because it displays the word Amiga, which Hyperion do not have permission to use. I'm not sure where Cloanto's lawyers are trying to go with this. Wouldn't the Amiga parties have get a court ruling on the existence of such a breach in order for the agreement to be terminated?


    It seems that emulation was far more lucrative than PPC hardware, and Hyperion decided to go this direction, as evidenced by Olaf and Thor's recent work on 3.1. Unfortunately there are two obstacles: Cloanto owns 1.3 which is necessary for many games, and the 2009 settlement prohibited Hyperion from breaching the rights of all Amiga parties. They apparently decided that these restrictions didn't apply for them any more, because time and raisins and stuff.

    Quote:

    What are peoples views on Cloanto registering the Amiga trademark? I can imagine there would have been one hell of a shit storm on the forums if it was Hyperion that decided to take control of the brand in such a manner.


    Not any more. After all, there wasn't a forum shitstorm when Hyperion decided it was going to be the new Cloanto. Cloanto, however, appear to be miffed at the prospect.

    (Edit: changed settlement to 2009. Lawsuit started in 2007, didn't settle until 2 years later.)

    [ Edited by KennyR 29.12.2017 - 21:28 ]
  • »29.12.17 - 21:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10019 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Kickstart-34.4.rom is a 1.3 rom version. Included in AmigOS 4.1 Update 4,
    > released for download 22 December 2011 .

    Thanks. So if we are to follow Cloanto's pattern of argument further than Cloanto does, Hyperion must have been infringing on Cloanto's copyright (supposedly obtained from Amiga Inc. in 2011/2012) since exactly that time.
  • »29.12.17 - 23:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10019 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Cloanto are claiming that Hyperion committed a material breach of the
    > 2009 settlement agreement with the inclusion of the 1.3 because it
    > displays the word Amiga, which Hyperion do not have permission to use.

    That's just the trademark part of the argument. The copyright part goes like this:

    "27. Defendant never acquired any right to copy, distribute or sell Kickstart 1.3.
    28. Plaintiff never authorized Defendant to copy, distribute or sell Kickstart 1.3.
    29. Defendant willfully and intentionally infringed Plaintiff’s copyrights by making copies of, and distributing and selling the Infringing CD-ROMs, as well as offering and selling Kickstart 1.3 as a download.
    30. Defendant’s copying, distribution and sale of Plaintiff’s Kickstart 1.3 also constitutes a breach by Defendant of the Settlement Agreement.
    [...]
    39. Defendant’s copying, offering for sale, distribution and sale of Kickstart 1.3 without Plaintiff’s permission constitute copyright infringement under 17 U.S.C. § 501, et seq.
    40. Defendant’ acts of copyright infringement were willful.
    41. As a consequence of Defendant’s copyright infringement as alleged in this Complaint, Plaintiff has suffered and will continue to suffer damages in an amount to be determined at trial. In addition, unless Defendant is restrained from engaging in its infringing conduct, Plaintiff will be irreparably harmed.
    42. Because the copyright of Kickstart 1.3 was registered long prior to the commencement of Defendant’s infringing conduct, Plaintiff is entitled to statutory damages and legal fees.
    "
  • »29.12.17 - 23:45
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  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Leo
    Posts: 415 from 2003/8/18
    I can't believe they are still fighting for a piece of software that was released 30 years ago.

    Most ROM/OS of this era have been release for free: MacOS, RiscOS,...

    Apple is going to release Lisa's OS source code for free.

    Welcome to 2018...
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »30.12.17 - 13:29
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 211 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Kickstart-34.4.rom is a 1.3 rom version. Included in AmigOS 4.1 Update 4,
    > released for download 22 December 2011 .

    Thanks. So if we are to follow Cloanto's pattern of argument further than Cloanto does, Hyperion must have been infringing on Cloanto's copyright (supposedly obtained from Amiga Inc. in 2011/2012) since exactly that time.


    Not that it matters, but the cinemaware deal was 2010, including Manomio's negotiations for required IP.

    Manomio CTO Stuart Carnie

    Quote:

    Manomio is legally licensing the required intellectual property

    Source of quote above & vid/demo showing 1.3 image

    I fully understand your putting more weight on the 1.3 ROM discussed above, but I feel it's also fair to ask "who licensed what to Manomio?" back in 2010 as well.

    #6
  • »30.12.17 - 15:57
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2515 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    All my friends who are primarily AmigaOS4.x users, and secondarily AmigaOS3.x, and/or MorphOS, and/or AROS, users, who I usually see each year at the AmiWest Shows, will probably dislike this comment, but . . . .

    I hope that Hyperion (Ben Hermans specifically), get slapped really good by Colanto, and Ben Hermans, or Hyperion are forced to pay Colanto tons of penalties and legal fees. It would not bother me much if Hyperion got hit so hard that they lose everything to do with "Amiga", including AmigaOS4.x, and they are forced to close down Hyperion Entertainment permanently, similar to how Hyperion put Amiga Inc. out of business (effectively, since taking AmigaOS4.x away from them pretty much killed any hope Bill McEwen had of saving that company).

    The arrogance of Hyperion is quite sickening, and the vindictive and abusive behavior toward Colanto has lowered my opinion of Hyperion even further, which amazes me, since I didn't think my opinion of them (him) could be any worse.

    The sad thing is, I would not put it past "him", to vindictively lock up and through away, everything Hyperion owns, with regards to AmigaOS4.x, rather than sell, or give (open source) it to anyone in the community, just out of spite, should Hyperion close its doors, and shut down.

    Edit: Thinking about the above further, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if AmigaOS4.x and Hyperion were to cease to exist. A-Eon would then be forced into supporting an alternative OS, like MorphOS, and if A-Eon had supported MorphOS with the same amount of enthusiasm and monetary investment, who knows where it would be today?

    [ Edited by amigadave 30.12.2017 - 11:16 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »30.12.17 - 19:11
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 211 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:The sad thing is, I would not put it past "him", to vindictively lock up and through away, everything Hyperion owns, with regards to AmigaOS4.x, rather than sell, or give (open source) it to anyone in the community, just out of spite, should Hyperion close its doors, and shut down.


    Well, he did change his nick on AW from hyperionmp to hyperionholding in June, which did give a rather odd impression of intent to some.

    #6
  • »30.12.17 - 19:39
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