Cloanto sues Hyperion
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 553 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, Gr...
    I just wish there could be some agreement reached before it goes much further, as there have been enough casualties already in these Amiga trademarks, copyrights and other ownership wars that will only damage all our futures with our favourite systems in the long-run.

    I have never been a major fan of Hyperion, but they have produced some software for use on our Amiga systems over the years, but like ELBOX they seem to have used methods that others may have found to be unfair.
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  • »27.12.17 - 03:32
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    maurensen
    Posts: 337 from 2003/10/3
    From: Padova - Italy
    popcorns!!!
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  • »27.12.17 - 07:06
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 916 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    I hope Ben H is personally bankrupted by this case tbh.
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  • »27.12.17 - 14:16
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 268 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Looks like OS4's days are officially numbered.


    OS4 is already dead. For the last seven or eight years, it has gone literally nowhere; Hyperion are unable to pay anyone to touch the code, even for new hardware, despite several squeezes and a moderately successful UAE/price drop combo. A-Eon have been nibbling at it, trying to become the defacto owners, and Hyperion (or possibly just Ben) have been resisting.

    Now it'll probably just end up in legal limbo forever.
  • »27.12.17 - 16:02
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 268 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    While Cloanto seeks the court to order "the destruction or other reasonable disposition of all Infringing CDROMs", OS4 proper is not subject to the lawsuit.


    It's the original AmigaOS3.1 that the suit is around, AFAIK. Not that it helps Hyperion.

    Number6 has been posting details on AmigaWorld for weeks. Hyperion's replacement 3.1 disks have disappeared from some vendors.
  • »27.12.17 - 16:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I hope Ben H is personally bankrupted by this case tbh.

    A CVBA is a company with limited liability.
  • »27.12.17 - 16:06
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 268 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Number6's excellent (yet often ignored) detective work:

    AmigaWorld thread

    (Edited for clickable link, because I know how lazy everyone is.)

    [ Edited by KennyR 27.12.2017 - 16:12 ]
  • »27.12.17 - 16:11
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > OS4 [will] probably just end up in legal limbo forever.

    See comment #4.
  • »27.12.17 - 16:13
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 268 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > OS4 [will] probably just end up in legal limbo forever.

    See comment #4.


    See comment #7.
  • »27.12.17 - 16:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > It's the original AmigaOS3.1 that the suit is around, AFAIK.

    According to the published documents, the lawsuit is primarily about:
    - copyright to Kickstart 1.3 (as included with OS4.1 media and Hyperion's Kickstart 3.1 distribution)
    - ownership and use of "Amiga", "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaOne", "Amiga One" and Boing Ball trademarks

    AmigaOS 3.1, while mentioned in several contexts in the complaint, is not mentioned in Cloanto's prayer for relief, so it doesn't seem like Cloanto expects any orders with regard to it.
  • »27.12.17 - 16:44
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> OS4 [will] probably just end up in legal limbo forever.

    >> See comment #4. [While Cloanto seeks the court to order
    >> "the destruction or other reasonable disposition of all Infringing CDROMs",
    >> OS4 proper is not subject to the lawsuit.]

    > See comment #7. [It's the original AmigaOS3.1 that the suit is around, AFAIK. [...]]

    Comment #7 does not support your statement that "OS4 [will] probably just end up in legal limbo forever".
  • »27.12.17 - 16:48
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 916 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I hope Ben H is personally bankrupted by this case tbh.

    A CVBA is a company with limited liability.


    Yeah but someone has to fund the legal costs. I hope his ego drives him to pump all his wealth into it.
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  • »27.12.17 - 17:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2465 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:

    Looks like OS4's days are officially numbered.



    I don't know about that.

    I have been meditating a bit over the embossment/relief of the contents of this case; what stands out and what is in the background or not there at all so to say, and I get the impression that Cloanto seems to be carefully avoiding OS4 or Olsens "Boing Ball Branch" of version 3.1. As the registered copyright owner of the Commodore 3.1 version, which source code Olsens "Boing Ball Branch" (read: Hyperion published 3.1 and 4.x) builds on, Cloanto *are* a stakeholder in that as well, and they *could have* come down really hard on Hyperion based on this fact. But instead they are beating around the bush, they are like a surgeon carefully cutting marked tissue with precision with his scalpel. I get the impression they want the "Boing Ball Branch" to be able to live on and continue by not pissing people off too much.


    (Click!)


    Copyright and trademarks are different in that you have to act actively to protect your trademark, if you don't you may lose it, and everyone knows this (including Hyperion and affiliated people) so they can't take a move like this overly personal. Copyrights OTOH doesn't require this, you can *choose* to look the other way on a case-by-case basis, without losing your copyright. You can chose to act now, never, or simply at a later time.

    Everyone knows and understands that this lawsuit is Cloanto protecting their Amiga trademark (which is under opposition). As expected. But they are not going after the "Boing Ball Branch". Not in this particular case anyway. It may be a very possible outcome that when the trademark issues are solved, both Olsen and Hyperion (maybe separately) will be offered some deals regarding trademark+copyright for the Boing Ball Branch (3.1 and 4.x respectively). After all, Cloanto's mission and dedication has for *20 years* been to preserve the entire Commodore/Amiga culture and securing a future for it indefinitely, long after key people and companies have died, including potentially moving certain IP to a non-profit foundation (read about: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures).

    Trying to kill off the "Boing Ball Branch" would go against everything Cloanto stands for, so that's very unlikely to happen IMHO, at least by Cloanto's hands (Hyperion's incompetence is another matter, that has been killing OS4 slowly for more than a decade). Also remember that Cloanto was key in bringing PowerUP emulation into UAE, making OS4 run on Amiga Forever (one product to run them all). This was probably the biggest sale success in OS4's history, counted in volume.

    If Hyperion and/or OS4 would die (a more than probable outcome, were is the future anyway?), then Cloanto would probably do what they did with their "Workbench 3.X" in relation to Haage&Partner's "Amiga OS 3.9": They will contact each developer individually, negotiate copyrights to all components, and build a parallel clone of it.
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  • »27.12.17 - 17:22
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1112 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    > Looks like OS4's days are officially numbered.

    While Cloanto seeks the court to order "the destruction or other reasonable disposition of all Infringing CDROMs", OS4 proper is not subject to the lawsuit.


    You seem to gloss over quite a bit. OS4.1 CDs include infringing material. Then again, you were the same person who scoffed at me a couple years back when I mentioned HYPErion were blatantly pirating Cloanto IP and Cloanto would sue them. I'm just shocked it took this long.

    Regardless, no way HYPErion can afford another legal battle. I'd expect Ben to close up shop leaving A-Eonkit holding the bag.
  • »27.12.17 - 17:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2465 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I hope Ben H is personally bankrupted by this case tbh.

    A CVBA is a company with limited liability.


    But does *the company* have any money in their war-chest then? It went bankrupt not long ago, a new "director" saved the day, but did he bring enough to keep a lawsuit process going or will they have to re-fill the chest now with more of their own money? I suppose a bank loan is out of the question. Supposedly Ben Hermans will act as Hyperion's lead lawyer, but will it be enough? It's a US case, does he really have the competence for that? Hyperion won against Amiga Inc, but that was merely because Amiga Inc was a lame duck that simply couldn't move.
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  • »27.12.17 - 17:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> Looks like OS4's days are officially numbered.

    >> While Cloanto seeks the court to order
    >> "the destruction or other reasonable disposition of all Infringing CDROMs",
    >> OS4 proper is not subject to the lawsuit.

    > You seem to gloss over quite a bit.

    I don't think so.

    > OS4.1 CDs include infringing material.

    Yes, that's why I wrote "OS4 proper". I can't see how selling new OS4.1 CDs without the infringing material would mean that "OS4's days are officially numbered".

    > you were the same person who scoffed at me a couple years back when I mentioned
    > HYPErion were blatantly pirating Cloanto IP and Cloanto would sue them.

    A couple years back? You mean way before the incidents that Cloanto quotes as base for the complaint happened?
  • »27.12.17 - 17:56
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > a new "director" saved the day, but did he bring enough to keep a lawsuit process going [...]?

    AFAIK, it's not even publicly known whether Costel "Cyborg" Mincea brought money at all, effectively making him a shareholder in Hyperion.

    > Supposedly Ben Hermans will act as Hyperion's lead lawyer

    I suppose he won't. He also didn't in the previous US-based lawsuits involving Hyperion.

    > Hyperion won against Amiga Inc

    They didn't. There was a settlement, remember? ;-)
  • »27.12.17 - 18:09
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 268 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Comment #7 does not support your statement that "OS4 [will] probably just end up in legal limbo forever".


    If Hyperion go bankrupt, the ownership of OS4 is unclear and can only end in dispute. There would be a free-for-all between the liquidators (if any) developers, A-Eon, and even outside parties with questionable connections to the name like Itec. The very least that would happen is that anyone who attempted to go near it again would get endless vaxatious litigation - suits and claims unlikely to succeed, but expensive to constantly defend against.

    Legal limbo. Forever. Just like the Amiga name.
  • »27.12.17 - 18:19
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1112 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    A couple years back? You mean way before the incidents that Cloanto quotes as base for the complaint happened?


    2015 is not before the infringement started, it is just when it became the most obvious. Just because Cloanto apparently tried to work things out for a while outside of court doesn't mean the infringement wasn't occurring.
  • »27.12.17 - 18:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > 2015 is not before the infringement started

    It is, according to Cloanto's statements in the complaint. 2016 is when the infringement started according to Cloanto. I'm sure you understand that I take Cloanto's word over yours in this matter.
  • »27.12.17 - 18:52
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1112 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > 2015 is not before the infringement started

    It is, according to Cloanto's statements in the complaint. 2016 is when the infringement started according to Cloanto. I'm sure you understand that I take Cloanto's word over yours in this matter.


    Come on, the same conditions existed before 2016. That 2016 probably is just the date of the original C&D letters.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 27.12.2017 - 13:57 ]
  • »27.12.17 - 18:57
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    Kronos
    Posts: 1701 from 2003/2/24
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    DAMN!!!!!

    [ Edited by Kronos 27.12.2017 - 21:04 ]
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  • »27.12.17 - 19:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9477 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the same conditions existed before 2016.

    You are right. The "Infringing CDROMs" supposedly contain AmigaOS 4.1FE (or when was Kickstart 1.3 first included with OS4?), which was released in December 2014.
  • »27.12.17 - 19:55
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