How can we attract outside programmers to get them to begin using and coding for and on MorphOS. I would like to read ideas and opinions on what things other members here think could be done to bring some new programmers into our tiny niche community. We see one or two new users who also happen to be experienced programmers on other platforms come here each year and ask a few questions, but not many of them stay and actually work at learning how to program for MorphOS. There are many reasons why they don't stay, but I am not really interested in debating why they leave, unless it also contains suggestions on how to resolve some of those reasons for them leaving with good suggestions on what can be done to reduce the number of new users who are also programmers from leaving us. I think that we as a community should attempt to increase the number of new experienced programmers from outside the Amiga and MorphOS community, and also work at making any new users capable of programming to feel comfortable and welcomed here. I think some improvement has been made over the last few years, at making new members of this site feel welcome, but we could also probably do more.

I would like very much to be able to steal as many programmers away from Linux to work on creating new content for MorphOS as we can, but since we can't promise that these new MorphOS programmers will get rich quick from their new efforts, we must make the prospect of programming for MorphOS attractive in other ways to motivate them to come, and once they have shown up here at MorphZone.org, we need to work hard to keep them here and interested. What can we do to increase our numbers of qualified programmers in the future? So far we have mostly only been able to get new programmers by having existing MorphOS users teach themselves how to program, which is good, but getting experienced programmers from other platforms would be better, as it would also be increasing out user base, by bringing in someone from outside our niche community.

The only suggestion that comes to me right away is to improve the friendliness of this site toward new members, and to make it more fun for people to visit and share their stories & questions here. MorphZone.org is a good site, but is not famous for being a fun place to visit, nor is it known as a site that suffers fools, or is overly friendly and helpful. The impression that I think is most often received from new people visiting this site is that of a "no nonsense" kind of group, who are helpful when asked questions, but also can be a little harsh toward uneducated members who don't do their own research before asking simple questions. Maybe my impression is not typical, and I would like to read what other people think is the most common impression that new members to this site observe their first few weeks or months after joining this site.

I don't expect us to gain dozens or hundreds of new programmers over night, but in my mind, every new programmer we attract to MorphOS, is another valuable new user as well as a potential creator of new software for MorphOS.

If there are tangible things we can do as a group or individually to increase our chances to gain more new programmers, I for one will attempt such suggestions on a regular basis, as one way to contribute to this community.

Edit: I try to show MorphOS to as many existing AmigaOS3.x & AmigaOS4.x users each time I set up a display table at the AmiWest Shows. I know that I have gotten many of them to at least try out MorphOS, and several of them are becoming regular users of MorphOS now, even though they have not given up on using their other choices. I will continue my efforts at future AmiWest Shows, but I would like to do more by reaching out to existing Linux programmers and getting them interested in MorphOS. I know this will not be an easy task, as 99% of them would prefer to use cheap x86/x64 hardware, not older & slower Mac PPC systems, but there will be some Linux programmers who were former (or current) Mac users as well, who will be intrigued by the fact that MorphOS has been ported to so many PPC Mac systems. There will also be some who are burned out and no longer interested in programming for Linux, and might like a change to a new and different OS, such as MorphOS. The quirky fact that A-Eon are crazy enough to create new desktop PPC hardware with the X5000, and the fact that MorphOS might be available to run on the X5000 before AmigaOS4.x is completed for it, might also create interest in a few Linux programmers. There must be some programmers who are still working on Linux PPC, which might like the prospect of working on MorphOS software creation, or new drivers, or utilities.

How do we approach these Linux PPC programmers? What about MorphOS can we promote to these Linux programmers, to spark their interest? Those are the kinds of suggestions I am looking for with this thread.

[ Edited by amigadave 11.08.2015 - 00:54 ]

Quote:

The key to retain the interest of users as well as developers who are new to MorphOS and similar operating systems is much improved documentation such as written resources (MorphZone Library) as well as videos (instructing how to use and set up the operating system, and so on).

Once when I had a meeting with a SW firm CEO that seemed to know application market pretty well. I think it was in 2010.
He said that for anyone who plans to do any SW, better target android play store, windows store etc. and NOT apple store, because everything exist there already (for iPhone) and is already well done. So, better head to weaker competition and to higher demand.

So... HE would say AmigalikeNG systems are great target for SW because there is nothing yet.



But really. Our niche has bigger lack of high quality SW than Linux. Many modern things have not yet been implemented, so come & do it.

+ lets beat the mainstream (again)

[ Edited by KimmoK 11.08.2015 - 12:46 ]

To be honest, there's really nothing in MorphOS that would interest programmers that aren't already into Amiga-like OS's. Considering the small userbase it's just a lot of work for very little gain, it's more attractive to concentrate on a platform with a larger amount of potential users/customers.

Quote:

Why do you want to target Linux progammers? The API is quite different and more so is the philosophy. Linux is full of GPL. MorphOS isn't.
MorphOS has another fredom than Linux. Not the GPL freedom of code, but the freedom to do things the just differently..
Plus: Linux user see Linux quite elitish (prejudice! Not a generally valid argument!). No Linuxer sane in the brain would use such an "unprofessional" (closed source, no modern fetures, no GNU, no GPL, no *ix) system like MorphOS.

And MorphOS of today is nice, but lack of SMP and support for little RAM and weak cpus only (current AMD64 is so much more powerful!) will not help either. Current MorphOS is trapped between retro and modern. I prefer modern and hope for MorphOS NG, but current MorphOS will not gain many new users/coders (although _I_ am quite happy with it).

Furthermore the API is quite different to other APIs (steep learning curve), there's no proper Java support nor C#, even C++ is not too comfortable with MorphOS.

Maybe it's easier to target beginners with Hollywood: it's easy, it's quite powerful with the latest plugins (GL, MUI Royale) and it's Multiplatform (well as long as you don't do platform specific stuff liek MUI Royale). Will not bring too adavanced programs (writig an office suite with Hollywood would probably be quite a task...) but some stuff.

And we need good tutorials! I would like a good MUI C++ tutorial.

+1

MorphOS need a new hardware (SAM480?) low expensive with:

- Micro-ATX format
- DDR3
- USB3
- SSD port with sata

to increase the numbers of users and developpers...

I don't think new custom hardware would help much, Sam460 didn't for example. I'd think developer resources should be concentrated now more to the software (OS features), documentation, SDK & examples etc. It's been too much concentrated to expanding new platforms lately. We have pretty much hardware now and users should be attracted by other means now.

I agree with ASiegel that MorphZone Library has a great potential, and we all could be making it better! You don't need to be 'leet coder to be able write interesting articles there, but that would still help community a lot.

AmigaOS/MorphOS programming is very different fundamentally to other platforms, and to get around that, I'd want some easy high level programming languages to create OS friendly programs without that much risk to make fatal mistakes. Should we start persuade (or even make a bounty) Krashan to make/finish MUI module for Lua for example? He has mentioned he has some plans for it and I'd think that could be pretty marvellous... a modern lightweight scripting language which is popular on mainstream too.. it's already well implemented natively on MorphOS and if it would be expanded to have GUI capability. It would be easy to learn for everyone and powerful enough for many things with nowadays systems. BTW. Hollywood is based on Lua too.

[ Edited by jPV 11.08.2015 - 16:10 ]

First, there should be better autodocs and examples. I hate to read "please complain in the mailinglist"!

Last time it took me a nearly a whole day to find out about how to make dynamic, drag&drop sortable tabs for a new project i'm working on. I have ~25 years of amiga-programming experience and couldn't figure it out quickly. Many new os-functions or mui-classes are not documented/exampled at all. Also the autodocs are not complete, older (os <= 3.1) functions are missing. Most examples just cover some basic stuff, not the advanced things.

How can one assume to get new coders and quality software if there's nothing documented and explained? There are not many people like me, which try hours and hours to make a function working. They simply move on...

Also there should be a public bugtracker and feature-request/discussion site for MorphOS itself.

Hi naTmeg,

Quote:

Good idea, how to do this ?

When I first became interested in using MorphOS, just prior to version 2.0 being released, I asked what I could do to help and was told that the best thing I could do was to work on updating the documentation. Unfortunately, that request did not seem appealing to me, probably because I didn't (and still don't) feel qualified to write updated documentation and would worry about writing incorrect documentation. I also would not know where to start, but perhaps I will look into that area again with a more open mind, and see if there is anything I can do to improve the documentation we have in the MorphZone.org Library.

I agree that better documentation would be one of the best ways to help keep any new programmers who show an interest in MorphOS. I am hoping that we can find some new programmers before we begin the long hard task of porting MorphOS to another platform, such as x64, or ARM (or both). If we don't, or can't increase our numbers of excellent programmers for that huge project, I am afraid that I may never see it completed, or be too old to care about it being completed. We have an excellent development team, but none of them can work on a new MorphOS for a different platform full time, so we need as many additional programmers willing and technically able to help out with different parts of such a daunting project, to get it finished in a few years, instead of a decade or more.

As I have said before, I wish that we could combine all programming resources from the AROS camp and MorphOS camp to work on MorphOS for x64 and/or ARM. We would not be forced to combine the results into just one project, if the AROS programmers wanted to keep working on their AROS distributions and MorphOS remained commercial and closed source, except for the parts of it that are borrowed from AROS code, just like it is now, but with more collaboration between the two camps. AROS can keep Zune, or Wanderer, if they want, and MorphOS can port Ambient, but if they work together on providing SMP and Memory Protection, plus other key modern features that are a "Must Have" for any new modern operating system.

In the meantime, it would also be nice to have more programmers working on new PPC software, or ports of existing software to MorphOS, so our platform is more attractive and more productive for its existing users.

The reason I mentioned targeting Linux programmers, instead of Windows, Android, or Mac/iPhone/iPad programmers, is because most of the Linux programmers already code for fun, not for profit, and they are more likely to continue to code for zero profit, than a programmer who is used to having a large paying market, like Windows, Android, or Mac. I think that there are some Linux programmers who would be interested in working on a new OS, so it might be easier to tempt them to become interested in MorphOS, if they knew that in the relatively near future, MorphOS would be completely rebuilt for the platform shift, and they would have the opportunity of creating something "better", by not repeating the mistakes that all OSes have made in the past.

I think that some new programmers could be recruited by advertizing in the right places on the Internet and describing the goals that MorphOS for a new architecture would be aiming at. The MorphOS Dev. Team members would need to discuss and agree on their goals and roadmap for the future, and choose how to word such an announcement and recruiting advertizements, plus decide how they were going to decide which applicants would be approved to be added to the team, and how to disqualify applicants who they feel are not a good fit for the team.

We have no control on what the MorphOS Dev. Team does, when they do it, or who they decide to include/exclude in that work. The only things we can do is to think of ways to help increase the number of programmers we have in our community, and work on implementing those ideas to see if they work.

If I were an experienced programmer, or knew more programmers outside our community, and knew what motivates them, I would have a better idea of what might work to motivate them to work on MorphOS software.

[ Edited by amigadave 11.08.2015 - 12:35 ]

> before we begin the long hard task of porting MorphOS to another platform

"We"? ;-)

Well, I studied computer science and I am developing in java,c, c++, objective c for linux, mac, windows, ios and android.
MorphOs is not really attractive to me.
The the API, the documentation and tools are quite different compared to other platforms.
What I am missing:

- Documentation in HTML (sorted by classes, structs, functions, topics)
- Gcc 4.8.x with c++11 support
- Gdb
- Virtual Memory (+protection)
- Tools like EMacs, Clion, git, sshd
- CMake
- Libraries in c++
- Frameworks like Qt and Posix support
- Multiuser
- Package Management

From a technical point of view MorphOs is really rusty and there aren't any reasons for other developers
to switch to MorphOS.

So in the end, I am still waiting for MorphOs NG, which throws away the old API and starts with a fresh approach.

To the current MorphOS developers: Can you give us some good reasons to develop for MorphOS?




[ Edited by eliot 12.08.2015 - 05:11 ]

You can develop for MorphOS for the same reason people do it for c64, amiga, spectrum or even pc. You like the platform.
I know I can be more productiva coding in windows but is Amiga(MorphOS) what I really like to do with its límite but I guess we love it.
But I agree that we need better documentation for newcorner coders, more examples, better tools to debug etc etc..

Quote:

Doable I guess... I just need to add HTML output mode into my AGuide generation scripts.

Quote:

Likely to happen since OWB is going to need that...

Quote:

That is less likely.

Quote:

I other words, you want to write (and use) nix apps. Feel free to do so under any of the Linux distro out there.

Quote:

That is already possible and the SDK even has examples. Scribble's core class - Scintilla.mcc is a C++ shared library (mcc).

Quote:

Not going to happen in current MorphOS - needs saying bye bye to backwards compatibility.

Quote:

There's Grunch already.

Quote:

There's absolutely no reason. Unless you find it fun and rewarding to write for MorphOS. I do.

Eliot:

I develop for MOS for fun and agree with you on many points... and on some points not.

What are there:
- Scribble (not EMacs/IDE, but still a nice editor)
- CVS (svn/git also have their problems... none of them are perfect!!)

What I really miss:
- GDB
- Memory protected environment
- More complete documentation
- More and better examples
- Sleep could be also nice... It is easier to continue the work... (On a robust system).

What I NOT really need:
- Virtual memory
- CMake
- QT (maybe for porting programs from Linux, but...)
- Multiuser (why)
- Package management (there is something, but I don't use it)
- C++11 support (but a recent gcc should be released more frequently)

What the biggest problem is the fragile system (no memory protection). The programming feels like walking on thin ice... On Linux, the kernel protect (mostly) the system from my faults.

Quote:

Because most of my programs at work und at home are cross platform
and i do not want to maintain two build processes.

Quote:

Because we are 3 persons at home and I do not want that
my ten years old daughter deletes my files or has access my data.

Quote:

Because most of my software uses c++11 features and do not miss them
(threading, regex, ...).

Nice, I did not know that there is c++ library support.
When was it introduced?

Backwards compatibility: No problem for me. We have MorphOS 3.x.
After switching the architecture to amd64 or something else, the backwards
compatibility is broken anyway.

No architecture switch = no developers = no future. This is my POV.

We need to forget about backward compatibility if we want to move forward.

Quote:

2003? Something like that anyway :) Does not mean making C++ shared libraries isn't cumbersome. Oh and the external interface may not be C++, obviously. So if you meant that - tough luck.


[ Edited by jacadcaps 12.08.2015 - 10:03 ]

Quote:

Well, actually you can have a C++ interface (there even is an example of it in the SDK), with some limitations, however it is strongly discouraged as compiler ABIs are not very stable which means your library won't work across different compilers and/or versions (all this is mentioned in aforementioned example docs).


- CISC

Quote:

It is good to get the opinion from outside programmers, like yourself (who can speak from your experience programming for Linux & pther platforms). As jacadcaps wrote, some of the things you are missing might be available sometime in the future, but no one in this community wants to turn MorphOS into an exact copy of Linux, what would be the point in that?

As I suspected, you appear to be more interested in what might be done in the future within MorphOS for another architecture, and you are not really interested in the current PPC incarnation of MorphOS. Can you share with us what brought you here, or who introduced you to your first MorphOS experience? Also, you must have some interest (or had some interest at some point in time), in the current MorphOS for PPC systems, or I doubt you would be reading and replying to these forum messages. If there is any advice or opinions you can share which might help us generate more interest for MorphOS from other Linux programmers, it would be greatly appreciated. Some of your fellow Linux programmers might become more interested, and have less objections to the current limitations within MorphOS3.9, than you appear to be from your statements.

As I already wrote, I don't expect hundreds of Linux programmers to convert to using and programming for MorphOS3.9. I don't even expect to gain dozens of new programmers, but if we can get even just 1 to 5 new programmers over the next couple of years to become active in writing new software for, or porting new applications or games, to MorphOS, I will consider the effort to be a great success.

After all, there must be millions of Linux programmers around the World. They can afford to lose a few to MorphOS, and every one we gain can potentially make a much bigger difference to this tiny community, depending on what they decide to work on, and how productive they are.

[ Edited by amigadave 12.08.2015 - 08:37 ]

What has driven me to write things or fix things outside of paid work are having a itch to scratch myself. I'm not going to spend hundreds of hours doing things I'm not interested in unpaid, thats what I go to work for. If I'm trying to do something specific and it doesn't work or exist, then its a different thing.

Another problem already mentioned, yes there's a bit of a quiet small exodus away from linux at the moment due to systemD and some other stuff afoot. However you are very unlikely to convert people leaving a free platform like linux for reasons of reduced freedom to a closed platform like Morphos with less hardware support, license fee's and no memory management.
On balance Morphos has plus's too, the single user simple window manager without qt or gtk, all the complexities of X, lightweight, fast, quick to boot, alternative cpu architecture means most the exploit code in the world will fail because it targets x86.

I did originally write something about the ps3 with a ps3key being a ideal little ppc box now theyre dirt cheap to buy and well and truly exploited, but a quick search around the forums throws up this is not an option.



[ Edited by MrFluffy 12.08.2015 - 20:09 ]

@amigadave

Sorry, but you are totally wrong. I am Amiga user since I was a kid back int he early 90s.
I have got many Amigas (A500, A600, A1200, A4000T, CD32) and I am using/knowing
MorphOS since the beginning. But MorphOS is just a hobby, not more nor less.

I showed MorphOS several times to some of my colleagues and some of them took
part at geit@home and also joined the MorphOS community.
All of them are developers and all of them have the same problems with MorphOS.

They are missing a "good" documentation (have a look at Qt Api Doc), tools (state of the art
IDEs, Editors and debugger) and
must have standard features in the OS like virtual mem, mem protection, multiuser, etc.
Using a OS without these features today is like driving a car from
the sixties. It is fun, absolutely, but when I have to drive from Braunschweig to München I
will always choose my new car.

So in the end MorphOS its nice and real Amiga feeling with more features and speed without
breaking with the compatibility. That's ok. But do not expect to many new users or developers
without an Amiga background.

So my wishes for the future:
- amd64 or arm architecture
- standard features as mentioned above
- current gcc and gdb
- Ambient is really cool
- System file structure and shell can be the same
- Datatypes and reggae are cool
- I love Screens
- a Micro Kernel is always a good idea
- OpenCl support

So there are features in MorphOS which are very cool and should stay. But there are also many concepts and
technologies which are totally outdated.

Quote:
Are they, actually?

Does the said PS3Key (or any other "non-solder" exploit) work on the current PS3 models? (Which is, late slim & super slim models)

Sure, there might be some recent exploit that I've missed, since I haven't been following much (since I have already exploited original model, why bother?) - PS3 key seems to be ancient, from 2010 I think? And afaik, completely irrelevant with even slightly more recent PS3 models.

PS3's aren't that stable really, and many original models have already broken. My friend was recently looking for one, and complained that all the "exploitable" models are way more expensive than the recent super slim models (which also suffer worse from overheating etc.)

And even if they were cheap, are they significantly cheaper than f.ex. G4 PowerMacs? While the raw CPU speed (not counting SPU, as that would need dedicated support) might be a bit higher, I think the platform would be worse because (starting from the most significant):

-Not that cheap (at least in Finland) exploitable models
-Too little memory
-Not possible to expand memory (swap doesn't count)
-No graphics acceleration, unless drivers were written for a completely different chipset, which currently lacks any support with limited need elsewhere (most models can be fitted with Radeon board)
-Current firmware versions have automatic update feature (if the console is online at least sometimes), so most second hand units on the market are "up-to-date" in bad sense (previously working exploits disabled)
-Porting a commercial OS to hacked PS3's might be a legal risk, Sony is relatively trigger-happy when it comes to suing (and as everyone knows, you don't need a valid case & win the lawsuit to cause significant damages)
-Expandability issues (only 2.5" HD, not possible to add more internally)
-Damn noisy (compared to some "more silent" MorphOS platforms)
-Since (afaik) new firmwares aren't exploitable, this would depend 100% on second hand market (as small minority insists on "new" hardware instead of second hand)
-If it was possible to install on new units, this would definitely get rid of any warranty (and undo the #1 benefit of buying new)
-What if Sony releases new popular game, that needs firmware update, that undoes all exploits for good? (Well, Sony is probably going to start actively killing PS3 soon enough...)

A few ways to get programmers:

I suggest that on this forum they are given a title called "MorphOS Programmer". The MorphOS Core Developers are obviously called "MorphOS Developer" and they probably have moderator or admin privileges but the MorphOS Programmer would not necessarily require such privileges ... only the title. Bounty Managers are called "Bounty Managers" and Moderators are called "Moderators" but if they are just 3rd party MorphOS Programmers then they can have the title for MorphOS Programmer. This will give them perhaps motivation to continue programming and it will help everybody else know who is a MorphOS Programmer. To qualify for a title on the Morph Zone forum, then they must have successfully completed and released the software or other important contribution to MorphOS. They will not be paid, unless there is a bounty for such.

Port MorphOS to a Pi device or any other device that attracts developers and coders. You might disagree based on that while RISC OS is a "old" OS that found new future with Pi device, they were always on the ARM Hardware. And also that while a native AROS ARM kernel was being made, there are very few developers interested. Perhaps if MorphOS was presented better, the developers would be interested.

Attempt to collaborate with AROS developers. Why just attract Linux? With either source of incoming developers, they need not follow the philosophy of Unix / Linux when programming for MorphOS.

Write the articles. I will attempt to write an article soon.

Do not do any more for The Legacy that anchors MorphOS into Long Past. Instead, The Legacy should be placed into The Emulator. If people do not like The Emulator, then interested programmers could port a native version to The Target Hardware. Target Hardware means PowerPC (the 68K software is that obviously not native version for PowerPC currently exists.) and it also means The Future Target Hardware. Some software may never be ported outside of The Emulator, because of The Proprietary Software.

I believe without suggestions such as these and also those made by other people on this topic, MorphOS future is bleak unless the suggestions have been accomplished.

[ Edited by In_Correct 12.08.2015 - 17:17 ]