bbrv wrote:
Where do you get off saying developers are getting second hand treatment from Genesi and what are the assumptions behind some of the junk you are posting?

>I said MorphOS devs, not application devs. Please read my reply again.

Send us an email and we would be happy to give you a call so you could base some of your opinions on first hand information. Apparently, you do not have any.

>No, I don't think so. Please stop sending me e-mail. The only first hand information I have in front of my face right now, from a programmer's standpoint, is that MorphOS is D-E-A-D, because of greediness and selfishness on BOTH sides of the table. How much clearer do I have to be in this regard?

>Also, in reply to your "Lutheran" bible comment. I find it to be very offensive. In my "Lutheran" bible, we do not go around e-mailing threats to people, just because we don't agree with them. Just for your information, I do know what I am talking about - I am a Computer Analyst/Programmer. A programmer in his right mind would not develop for MorphOS, because it is D-E-A-D.

Have you read this:

http://www.genesi.lu/morphos_statement.php

(check the date)

>Yes, I did, and your statement only further proves that MorphOS is D-E-A-D. By Freescale dropping their support for the OS, that dooms it even more so. Makes my point all too clear doesn't it?

We sent out 50+ ODWs to Developers in December alone. Admittedly, Freescale is taking a while to get them to some of the intended destinations but they ARE on the way. Some of those machines are going to MorphOS application developers. One recent example of success in this regard is VGP2 which is now ready but needs 1.5 functionality to really work as it should.

>Seems to me like people are trying to beat a dead horse here.

BTW, we host, manage and fully developed this site and MDC.

>Congratulations! What's your point with this statement?

>Personally, I have nothing against you both, but I have not liked how Genesi has handled this whole issue. You could have done a lot more to contain any damage.

>This is part of what you wrote to me (in quotes)... This only proves my point that Genesi has not done enough to remedy the situation. Sorry, but in my book, if a programmer has done work for your company, that makes your company responsible to pay that individual for their intellectual work.

"We do not have any outstanding obligations to MorphOS developers. David Gerber is not owed ONE cent. We do not distribute ANYTHING we have not PAID for. David and SOME others want irrational amounts of money for the 1.5 MorphOS release.

David Gerber is an immature child who lives at home with his parents and thinks he can blackmail us with morphos.net.. The only thing he did was cause Freescale to step away from MorphOS and make us lose a big customer."

>If Freescale is not supporting MorphOS anymore because of an "immature child," then that leads me to conclude that there was no real support for MorphOS from them in the first place. Sounds logical doesn't it?

Quote:

To tell you the truth, I don't know anything about Tariq Ramadan outside of this article and a quick glance at his web site. I was wondering if somebody would post something like you did, and anticipating that (really, in the shower just a few minutes ago ), my response is that the actual religious and political beliefs of the man himself are irrelevant to the discussion of the nature of truth and assumptions, where his words struck me as accurate. Maybe if time permits I'll do some more looking into the guy. To avoid being a hypocrit, I can't accept either his own self-description or your description of him on face value alone.

-- gary_c

Quote:

Sorry to be pedantic, but that isn't information, it's opinion.

Quote:

Did I miss something? Not that it matters, but I thought you brought up the Lutheran thing. In any case, what threats are you talking about? Do you have the full conversation to provide the context, or is this another instance of conclusion based on disputants' claims?

Quote:

As I understand it, David Gerber has been paid for his work on the released version of MorphOS, which Genesi has licensed. To know if Genesi owes him for work on yet-to-be-released MOS1.5, you'd have to know the details of the contract or work agreement between the two parties. BBRV say they don't owe him. He says they do. You can't conclude firmly that Genesi owes him for 1.5 work without that agreement information. So your comments about "paying that individual" are based on your assumptions, which seem to take the morphos.net page as literal truth with no need for further clarification. Is this correct?

I also want to say that, IMHO, these disputes get nastier than they need to be partly because of some of the responses from the Genesi side. Things are said that don't need to be, and the description of David Gerber is an example. It all ought to be more business-like and less personal. I can understand the desire to "strike back" but this does more harm than good if the strike concerns peripheral things rather than simply being a factual response directly related to the issue under dispute. This kind of response tends to further polarize the situation and put people off. But the fact that statements like that are made doesn't mean Genesi has no case and *only* has personal jibes as a defense.

This is easier to talk about from the sidelines than to do while in the heat of the battle, I'm sure, but I'd like to see both sides stick to the issues and avoid getting personal, and the spectators/commentators refrain from coming to conclusions or making assumptions without having all the relevant information at hand.

If we want things to progress, it should be obvious what kind of behavior helps and what kind doesn't.

-- gary_c

@James

While you do make some valid points, you still do not know both sides of the story. Only Genesi and the developers know the actual facts here. While I am just as mad as any of the MorphOS users we dont have a rite to publicly go after Genesi or the dev team. Its not fair to anyone.

@BBRV and the dev team

There is one simple way to solve all of this. If the developer that has a problem with Genesi does have something in writing from GENESI not Thendic France, GENESI (Unless a part of the Thendic liquidation, Genesi was to honor all cntracts, and thats needs to be in writing and re signed) Produce it and post it on your web site, if Genesi has something they would like to show then show it.

@Thread

I for one think the developer of Ambient has nothing to go on. If he did then he would have no problem getting legal aid and getting what he says he is owed in this case, being that has not taken place it looks more and more like black mail to me or a sad attempt to take advantage of a company still in its early stages of life. I cant blame Genesi for wanting to take advantages and focus on Linix. Its driing sales, and sales mean capital. With out money in the bank, nothing will get done.



[ Edited by Acill on 2005/1/11 14:35 ]

[ Edited by Acill on 2005/1/11 14:36 ]

Code:now who's jumping to conclusions?
I see no purpose in defaming this person who has obviously done alot of work.
you could just as easliy have decided he reached the end of his rope. right?

and not everyone is as interested in lying in bed with lawyers as americans seem to be.

>David Gerber is an immature child who lives at home with his parents

This is not true and bbrv very well know it. So, what's the point with all that?
I mean, why am I forced to correct such lie while I certainly have better to do?

By the way, to understand how pathetic it is, check the swiss registry of commerce:
http://rc.geneve.ch/RC/Consultation/Consultationcomplete.asp?no_dossier=12143%2F2003&typeconsultation=CP
Or visit http://rc.geneve.ch/ and search for genesi sarl.

"Date de consultation : 11.01.2005"
"Situation au : 11.01.2005"

"Raison de commerce ou nom de la succursale"
"Genesi S.à.r.l., Luxembourg, succursale de Genève"

"Gerber David"
"dir. succursale"

Today, David is the official director of Genesi Switzerland while he asks to be removed sine many many many months.

So, back to the initial quote about an immature child living at home with his parents: why some people would try to badmouth the director of their own company?

Nicolas, it seems the real question is how we made the mistake of trusting David with such responsibility for as long as we did. Everyone knew what the situation was, most of all people such as yourself who were in Paris and lived through the difficulties there.

The sad part of the whole matter is that most people do not understand the financial requirements of mounting such an effort, which does not involve just software development but hardware development and production, marketing and most importantly sales. If there aren't Pegasos machines out there then there is not much of a conversation is there? How many other companies are out there and alive trying to do all the same things? Apple? Who else?

What David has done with morphos.net hurt Genesi and hurt MorphOS. While we (Genesi and MorphOS) were being seriously considered as a viable option for some large companies we are no more. Will we have a chance again one day? We might, but it won't happen as long as the antagonism continues. You threw us off the MorphOS mailing list last week. Honestly, in the history of MorphOS has there ever been a bigger financial contributor and supporter? How many free machines do you yourself have that we paid for? How about others? How long were you employed and did get a salary for the "work" that was your passion already? You are still getting your ASSEDIC payments right? Ask yourself why.

What happened hurt everyone, but this continuous and unrealistic view of things damages the future and makes the opportunity if there will ever be one again harder to achieve. What David did on morphos.net was and is wrong. We have fully paid David for everything we release. When we can afford to pay him for what he has done and he agrees to what we can afford there may be another release. Until then making the situation worse is bad for everyone. We cannot understand why you and others do not understand this.

R&B

Why do so many people believe Pegasos equals MorphOS?

What about all other alternatives? All Linux dists, OpenSolaris,
possible QNX, MySQL server, etc?..

[ Edited by ironfist on 2005/1/12 5:21 ]

@ironfist

I bought the Pegasos for MorphOS, nothing else.
Try to find the thread with some more ppl who think
the same ...

@bbrv

If nobody understands you, perhaps you're wrong ?
The problem is not that nobody understands the
misery, the problem is that not you were the one
to bring it to public. You never failed to draw
a picture of a glory future ...

Quote:

Well mostly because thats all you can run the current MorphOS on unless your a beta tester for other platforms. Most people got a Pegasos only for MorphOS, myself included. Not a lot of people understand just how hard a startup can be, and David should have known better. I want to see an end of this myself. I hope Genesi can pull out of it and get some good sales.

@Robin...God bless you.

...that sort of comes with the job description and follows logically from the investment.

Anyway, the good news is that we are still pressing ahead. There are not as many on the ship as there used to be, but if the ship that is still here gets to where it is going there many be more opportunity again.

R&B

P.S. @Robin, don't mix hope and ambition with deception and avarice.

Quote:

Well said, well said. And I write this as someone who studied Computer&Economics science at an university of applied sciences.

Not knowing all facts by detail myself and of course not knowing what else has happened but what you write here is indeed right and requires my full support because these are the law of economy and marketing.

There is no room for problems like this being carried outside to the public. The competition is to big and of course not sleeping (See the new Mini-Mac solution). The only success to get Pegasos and MorphOS forward is working hand in hand, even if the things are not as good as they happen to be (which I assume here).

Negative publicity doesn't just harm the own efforts, they simply kill them because people lose trust. There are many words required to get customers, developers or companies interested in the own product, but one word is enough to simply kill that for a long long time - not to mention that this one word is even carried around and even rephrased to sound more dramatically than it really is.

While there are still excelent Amiga developers around here, some (and I write this as is without any personal offense in mind) have absolutely no knowledge in other things besides their beloved Amiga - no knowledge for economic related stuff and how to run a business, costs involved, fix and flexible costs, and so on.

Besides this I have to personally thank Bill Buck and Raquel Velasco for many things, one of them is creating hope for the Amiga, for their business, for having hand out dozens of machines to developers and of course for their very nice letter that I received for X-Mas. A lot of stuff that I am really thankful for and others should be thankful as well. I write this without taking a special position for either the MorphOS people or BBRV. I write this as someone who sees the things as I got know to them through the public.

greetings,

Ali Akcaagac

You cant just wipe out negative things. This is not Amiga Inc. ! Negative publicity is often deserved...

@bbrv

I see a lot of inacurate blahblah about me and others, to avoid presenting your excuses to David... It's really sad.
Let me teach you a few things.
First, living with his parents is not insulting. In most european countries, it used to be the rule a few generations ago. There is hardly something more important than the family.
Secondly, not living with his parents is higly insulting and a mark of disrespect or ignorance in some countries. Yes, even in 2005.
Thirdly, David doesn't live with his parents and you always knew it. But even if he would do, it would be stupid to use that as an argument to bash him.
That's really very low and I feel sorry for all morphzone users living with their parents and feeling insulted by your posts.

Now, let me correct another thing I missed the previous time:

>BTW, we host, manage and fully developed this site and MDC.

Visit http://www.whois.net/whois.cgi2?d=morph.zone
Targhan owns morph.zone hostname.
Not bbrv. Not genesi.

Visit http://www.emailman.com/finger/finger.cgi?user=&host=morph.zone
Gary, a friend of Targhan, owns the machine running morph.zone
Not bbrv. Not genesi.

What your ex, current and future employes privately did, do and will do... is their, nor your.

Could you please restrain yourself from writing so much, let's stay polite, inacurate stuff ?

Thank you.


[ Edited by Henes on 2005/1/12 10:19 ]

Hi Nicholas, we will ask Dave Crawford to post. This was done for a reason and we think Dave himself will be pleased to answer.

We never said anything badly against David Gerber's parents - we are parents too. You lived in your parent's apartment outside Paris. It is why we paid you your apartment allowance directly to you as part of your salary. Remember? In any case, why would we say anything badly against your parents or David's? They want the best for you. You have taken advantage of them and us. The fact is David spent most of last year playing video games, and you, you spent most of last year idle and causing trouble.

R&B

Henes,

This kind of talk is inappropriate on MorphZone; however, we (the moderators, staff, myself, bill, raquel, matt, amigazeux represntatives, whoever has a call to make here) do not like to censor things either. Dave Crawford (part of Genesi USA), Targhan, Genesi, BBRV, etc, it's all the same team. Which we feel that you are supposed to be part of as well. MorphOS.net was not posted by us, there used to be a website there...

There are people that still recieve paychecks from Genesi, and BBRV have always come through when my back was against the wall. There have *HAVE* been tough times, but when the chips are down--all anyone has had to do was say "Help!!"

Best Wishes,
Dave Crawford /aka/ Targhan

@Henes, BBRV, Targhan

Why on earth are you discussing the company related matters on a public forum? If you have problems inside the company, deal with it inside the company. This is getting a bit ridiculous. If I have problems with my boss or co-workers I sure as hell won't be bitching about it here.

Hooligan: what we see now is only ripples of real mistakes made years ago. IMHO it's unlikely they now could make things right.

Darn fine point Hooligan.

This is getting more and more pitiful, from both sides...

by marcik on 2005/1/12 12:45:00

This is getting more and more pitiful, from both sides...


I agree 100% If this is a Mexican Standoff, then their is nothing to be said by us outside. Looking at the communication from BBRV, if their is no way to begin correcting this, then.... Yes... this is Pitiful... and reflects poorly on all involved.

I agree Katos, if both sides approached this in a humble manner to provide a solution than perhaps a solution could arise. I, however, don't see any champion trying to keep MOS alive.

Shame, I would gladly pay for updates to the OS. Most MOS users, I believe would do so as well. This could be a revenue source, I would pay upto $500 dollars if MOS was close to what the literature said it is.

@mos team (or ex-mos team, however you consider yourselves)

Time to stop posts like these on message boards and websites. I understand the frustrations of trying to get your POV across over scorched earth but at this point it's really only adding more pits to the crater. Please post a concise statement regarding whether or not you intend to continue to develop and release MorphOS updates.

@bbrv

Time to stop posts like these on message boards. I understand the frustrations of trying to get your POV across over scorched earth but at this point it's really only doing adding more pits to the crater. You have already clearly stated your point about Genesi level of support for future versions of MorphOS.

Bye,

Steve

[ Edited by JKD on 2005/1/12 14:37 ]

@Mos-owner(s)-developer(s)-representative(s)-...: what about a clear statement ?

Leo.

PS: I'm not "whinning", just asking...

i'm very surprised to see even henes rebel against genesi. i thought he was completly brainwashed with the others blue zombies ;)

something must be very wrong with bbrv way of doing business.

maybe it would be better and safer for morphos to be separated from genesi then.