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Good story, but you missed the point.

1 - I don´t have to do thank them, BBRV promised me that MOS will be out for free for BPPCs, no comments.

2- You can say the story that you want, how good people they are (in your opinion, in the mine they simple divided the amiga market for his business) but they MUST TO PAY the programmers for their work, not more stories please.

3- They business are now linux not MOS, get the point.

4- I don think that without them the amiga land would have dead two years ago. They simply get some people to his camp selling pegasos (not bad product) as the "NEW AMIGA", and then create a new community no more.

5- For me BBRV and Amiga Inc are the same thing, I only hope in Hyperion, Eyetch and MOS programmers.

@ Amigan

AFAIK, BBRV *has* paid him for the software they are using. Of what I understand, the issue here is how they should deal with the (if any) software produced thereafter, also whether future involvement of David can be secured. It's not *all* up to BBRV, it takes two to tango.

@ Thread

I don't know why I didn't see the troll. I want to apologize to everyone that I engaged with it, which produced the nonsense that is now polluting the thread. This site is not ANN, and should not descent to that level IMHO.

Robin says:
Quote:

In that page he states he is the "maintainer" of AmiTCP for a Finnish company NSDi. I recall a no-charge version of AmiTCP on Aminet years ago and that made me think it wasn't a proprietary project, but rather a base that different, more advanced projects like Miami and Genesis built on. NSDi says they had some problems with OS 3.9 Genesis version licensing (essentially, the publishers of that didn't pay).

The challenge as I saw it with MOS version of TCP/IP was to make it user-friendly and that is what I thought was being worked on. It doesn't mean that Zapek was doing that. Maybe he was though. Nobody has said that though. Nobody has said that Zapek has some deal with NSDi that he can withhold MOS TCP/IP like Ambient and Voyager. "Maintainer" doesn't mean that to me.

The TCP/IP stack is an essential feature of MOS 1.5, so I agree with you about its importance. Why even bother with 1.5 if these new features are not introduced? We also need the update of printer drivers from the TurboPrint folks and the other stuff. It is terrible terrible terrible if these programs are developed and sitting on the shelf because no terms can be reached. They lose value sitting on a shelf, and the situation just gets worse, and the users suffer.

I urge all the parties involved to try to understand the positions of the others. A lot of people criticize bbrv, but Pegasos is not any cash cow for them. There are hopes for the future, including the future of MOS, but there are risks there too. I try to be evenhanded, bbrv must also recognize the importance of meeting the promises and representations that have been made and of taking this next big step into the future.

Remember the giant step of introducing the Pegasos 2 at the end of last year? They did it! So everyone should dig down deep and try to find a way.

[ Edited by Velcro_SP on 2004/11/22 7:53 ]

Velcro_SP:

Thank You for the very detailed post, and for the link to the letter, have not seen that before.

I was just wondering around this issues.

Gunne

I'm glad that there is a Peg 2, I think that
it would not have been possible without the
heavy investments of bbrv. Still I see that on the
way quite some ppl have stopped doing business
with genesi. Some silent, some not ...

IMHO Zapek is a center stone of MorphOS development.
And from what I read from bbrv and the from the fact that
the history of morphos.net still grows makes me
sure that bbrv is not interested in putting the slightest
effort in keeping zapek aboard ... but thats just my feeling.

It's just another sad chapter of amiga history ...
(where I hoped for a future ... thats why I'm so angry.)

@ Velcro_SP

Good post!

Regarding the TCP/IP part: Before MorphOS1.4 was released, it was said that the TCP/IP stack would be included in that release already. I recall that when I asked BBRV on some forum at that time (can't remember which, maybe it was IRC), they said that now (back then ) the TCP/IP stack was at least secured, that it now had been licensed, and that it should be included into the next release (1.5). It didn't have the necessary GUI ready though. At least that was my impression, that the TCP/IP was licensed already. And if you look in the "The future of MorphOS"-thread, page 4 (in the middle) you will see BBRV "brainstorming" about some possible future way, and say in the context of that; "We could even add a few things to this like TCP/IP support", suggesting that TCP/IP already is properly licensed. But what do I know?

@takemehomegrandma

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Just one word: "Who?"

The microscopic pool of advanced Amiga programmers remaining aside, the main point is: if Genesi can't afford to pay David currently, they can't pay someone else either.

Besides, as others already said, it would be simply idiotic to once again reinvent the wheel, i.e. developing yet another Workbench replacement.

You are just talking about what we have to thank bbrv for, btw - but what is about our thanks David deserves (as any other MorphOS developer as well)?

Dear bbrv


Do you got any news for us? Please tell us the latest things you know.

The community NEEDS informations now! How is it going on? Did you get the cvs from David? Do you have a release date for MOS 1.5 now?

Kindly regards

Marco

@ Senex

As I have written in some other posts, I am very thankful to everyone involved in making the Pegasos and MorphOS (and also the Pegasos Linux distros) to what it is today, including David, and I am very sorry you believed otherwise.

People seem to automaticly be "taking sides" when these kind of disputes is brought to be fought in public, which mean there will be one "good" side and one "evil" side (in those peoples eyes), which is not correct IMHO. You misunderstood me if you thought I was taking a side *against* any MorphOS developer, I certainly wasn't, I just wanted to balance up the situation a bit, making those people constantly throwing sh!t at bbrv think the whole situation through. While I of course am very grateful to David and everyone else that has been contributing with *pieces* of the puzzle (which I have said in other posts that you perhaps missed), I just wanted to remind people that there simply *wouldn't have been any puzzle at all* without BBRV. I also don't think it's all up to BBRV alone to solve this situation. If their resources would have been unlimited and "Ambient" would have been the only important thing in this world, then it would have been very simple. But I'm afraid it's not. Both sides will have to show a degree of flexibility, with a focus on the future of MorphOS. It takes two to tango, the premises are set, and won't be possible to dance outside of those bounds. It will take a real and pure willningness from *both* sides to settle and then move on in the future as well. But there are no real "sides" IMHO, it's only a very unfortunate situation.

wise words there takemehomegrandma.

I want to point my finger at someone, anyone, and really just can't justify it. Everyone has feelings, pride, principals, and makes mistakes. No matter how anyone chops it up, MorphOS has been created by people. We all have flaws, are fallable, and some of us even have Shakespearian level character flaws...

I can only promise to keep the site here up, try to keep it somewhat clean, and a way to "deliver" software for those who don't have the means of distribution themselves.

I think it should be understood that there are people trying to keep this from getting any worse. Just try to be supportive, and maybe we'll get through this thing.

@takemehomegrandma

I do agree completely. Sorry for getting you wrong with regard to this. Anyway, the problem remains who else should do a GUI in the worst case scenario - and as it seems from the original text of the yet unpublished press-release, the "solution" in this case might indeed be for Genesi to just go with what is there already and degrade MorphOS to an embedded OS only (as far as they do care, at least).

David Gerber owes us, the morphOS community an apology.

Quote:

Come on. It's not THAT black and white
Besides, what is done is done and nothing will make it undone.

I'm realy sad to be obliged to switch to OS4 world if MOS development was realy stoped last year !


It seems it's the case

I thought I could put my unworthy two cents too, at this point, so here I go.
For what is worth, I'd advise everyone to tone down a bit the discussion. This thread seems to have turned to the "let's flame zapek" feast, even though the posters might not have had this purpose in mind. I don't think it was even bbrv desire to have us bashing zapek (at least, I hope so). Not only he is a talented coder, but I'd simphatize with him would he find all of this (including this thread) even more depressing and demotivating. Putting things into perspective, we shouldn't forget he is one of those who got "hurt", even though at some point he maybe overreacted.
I appreciate (and probably most of you do) the straight communication bbrv gave in this thread, I just hope that facts will follow these words. I understand the need to have a date for the release of 1.5 set before funding again MOS, and the need to be reassured about the status of those OS components. OTOH I understand David's unwillingness to part from his work before he has something concrete in his hands. A settlement might be a checking/validation of David's work made by someone who's trusted by both parties (Ralph?), and subsequent (at least) partial payment (if there is any money, that is)...
That's what I'd do, at least, not for the sake of the so called community, or anything like that (love for MOS), but from the perspective that this is one of the few ways to set thing straight, and for every part involved to get their money (David for his work, and Genesi for their big investments in this platform - MOS 1.5 might make some impression outside the Amiga world, and I know some outside the usual suspects that agrees on this).
Moreover I think it's totally impractical to substitute Ambient, at this point. And I happen to like what Ambient was supposed to become (although no, just like everyone else, I haven't seen it with my own eyes).

Hopefully we'll get (good) news about this. (they still have to find a cure for my optimism, eh? )

Kind regards,
Andrea

Quote:

Targhan, I agree totally. The MOS community will get through this. It's very damaging in the short term of course because some people get ticked off and decide not to buy that Pegasos or they decide to leave the community. So it's absolutely critical that the different parties reach agreement and reassure the users of the future path. This has to be done very soon, rather than after a few weeks, because every day we are seeing a few people who are normally quiet, happy campers and they start talking about switching to whatever else. This is remarkable I think and beyond the level of the usual disasters we have had in the past, such as issues with Christian Kemp or the BSD developer.

I am still confident that we'll get through it though, the question is how much more banged up are we going to be by the time that happens and what is this future going to look like for MOS users?

I'm sure that the different parties like those in the title of this thread are frustrated with everything and not enjoying their jobs these last several days. I encourage all of them to hang in there and keep trying to reach agreement. Find other ways to reach agreement rather than picking x number of euros and trying to get the other guy down or up to that. There have to be creative solutions.

If any party to these negotiations thinks he has the others "over a barrel" he is totally wrong. The only thing being held over the barrel is the community and the future of the platform: Pegasos and MOS. MOS is critical to the future of the Pegasos too. Maybe some sales have been made with Linux lately, but the creativity of MOS community and MOS alternative program development is so important in what it represents, not so much now, but in the potential for the future. In a future where people finally realize that Linux has some disadvantages like being sluggish (so shoot me, I finally said it) and then you have Microsoft-financed SCO gunning for it for violating Unix patents or whatever.

A lot of what has differentiated Genesi and garnered publicity is what occurs from MOS community. They might do okay for a while as a PPC mainboard for Linux manufacturer, and maybe not. They need to keep MorphOS in their back pocket even as they deal with these guys like Freescale.

Papyrus just came out, we are having good software releases weekly. Genesi, don't even think about dimming the lights on this party, you shoot yourself in the ass. As for the other side, you've made your point, but if all you do now is stand there waving your 28,000 euro bill for services rendered you'll turn your hours of work for low pay into hours of work for no pay.

People need to get real and start working together, no matter how impossible that seems. This current situation is damaging everybody by the day.

Excuse me for my longwinded speech!

Quote:

Wish I could help out there - started a WB replacement a looong time ago back on the Amiga, originally as a WB replacement for OS4, but later I didn't want any OS4 anymore and MorphOS had Ambient so it just stopped rather sooner than later. But I think I won't have the time.

My personal comment on this situation: it's a typical Amiga-market disaster. Lots of opinions and nothing is clear. At least David could have published the licensing details along with his statement, and without knowing the licence terms and contracts some of you (I guess even more on Amiga sites, I haven't visited any for over a year now) discussing things you haven't got a clue about.

The only wise ones are the core MorphOS team who shut up for now. But I do agree that there's time to communicate once a solution path has definitely been worked out. No sooner, but no later. At this point, I would neither trust the comments of BBRV, nor those of Gerber.

Btw, this is a good example for why I always say never licence any stuff that is an essential part of your project. As you see, trying to save money in the wrong places just results in disaster sooner or later.

I had never been that fond of Genesi's way of approaching things. Like, throwing out free dev boards to everyone who had a project or an idea for one. May be cheaper than paying them for developing stuff, but in the end if they get tired of it, you still haven't got software and one board less.

I think it would have been the best way to have in-house (at least, self-controlled) development of software targeted at some special markets to which you could sell the stuff as complete solutions (computer+monitor+preinstalled software), no matter whether Linux or MorphOS. Maybe you pay a lot more this way, but you're building own IP ... if you go for the right markets, then it may be easier to find investors ... but counting on OpenSource ... sorry I don't think this works out, not as a business.

@VelcroSP

Another excellent post! Keep on with the longwinded speeches, I'm really startign to like you. Posts like yours and TMHGs might stop me from comitting murder upon my MorphOS box!

I only disagree on one thing. Unless the solution results in the continued development of MorphOS as a desktop OS with an update release soon, neither the platform nor teh community will survive. It's simply too small and fragile at this point.

Quote:

Very true!

As far as I remember, the original plan was to ship AmigaOS 3.5 along with MorphOS. The Amiga workbench, various tools and utilities etc, would then have been installed on top of the MorphOS core. I recall that bbrv even bought a stock of some 1000 copies or so of that OS for this purpose (probably from Petro T). They went the route of licensing Ambient and MUI instead. Now afterwards, I wonder if we wouldn't have been better off with the workbench, installer, arexx, etc from the amiga os, while their native and improved counterparts were being developed in-house? But what has passed, has passed ...

Quote:

I actually always thought that giving free boards to potentially interesting projects/developers has been a great idea. Also remember that most of the "phreeboards" were Pegasos 1 motherboards, many were traded in second hand boards, and that this program started first when it became obvious that it would be difficult to sell these boards at full price anyway, due to this certain "overfeatured" central HW component that "powered" this generation of the Pegasos (or is my memory letting me down here?). I am not aware of any large scale "phreeboard" program for the Pegasos 2, except perhaps for a few individual cases.

However, in my opinion the backside of this "giving for free" thing has made some people taking lots of things for granted and behave like little spoiled children, sitting on their fat asses and just crying for more, more, more instead of contributing to the common good. Some people have also never hecitated a second to complain loud and violent over the entire Internet if they had to wait a few weeks longer than expected for their free gifts. I feel that the kindness and generousity of Genesi has been exploited by some.

"Don't ask what this country can do for you, but what you can ..."

Quote:

Don't you think that this is where we are heading now?

I don't think that MorphOS will die as an OS because of this, but its development will definitely be brought back in-house. This will probably mean a somewhat slower development pase for some time, at least until there is room for greater financial dissipation again. But on the other hand it might secure the future of the OS as a whole? It will probably mean that the OS will become "embedded", but perhaps an "embedded" MorphOS 1.5 could be installed on top of a "desktop" 1.4 installation, overvriting certain parts, adding other, but still keeping the desktop untouched? And then, in a future, there might be a new desktop developed in-house? Or perhaps open source? Wanderer and Zune from AROS, further developed by MorphOS developers and then released back to the community? Perhaps certain parts *should be* open source, while the key parts (the core componentes of the OS) could remain proprietary and be developed in-house?

[ Edited by takemehomegrandma on 2004/11/23 22:43 ]

Quote:

I'm sorry, but I think that many people are vastly over-estimating the importance of this little geek-market. Sure, a few (some thousand or so) Pegasos motherboards has been sold here (during a three year period or so), but it should be very obvious to everyone that this hasn't been even remotely enough to fund the development of neither the Pegasos nor the MorphOS to this point (it has probably merely been a contribution to Ralph's Jolt Cola budget ). It was possible for Genesi to do what they did for this market at the time when they were living on (their own!) "VC" money, and they weren't as dependant on income from real sales as they are now. They obviously can't carry the community on their shoulders anymore, and I think that you are greatly mistaken if you for a second believes that the couple of hundred potential buyers or so that still may be left in the world-wide Amiga community in any way has been the end-goal for Genesi (or Eyetech/Hyperion/AmigaInc/anyone who aims for a rewarding business). This is not what they are aiming at. However, this does not in any way mean that they aren't interested in MorphOS, I would dare to say it's the very opposite. They seem to see a power in a combination of a propreitary hardware and OS (eventually combined with some kind of service). As far as I know, Ralf Schmidt is one of the owners of Genesi, and Genesi has spent all these money on the development and marketing of MorphOS for a reason. I definitely think there will be a place for MorphOS in future products from Genesi, but those products won't necessarily be specifically targeted towards the Amiga community, but instead to a broad consumer device market of some kind. If you have read bbrv's leads on ipods, stb's, etc, you would see what I'm getting at.

Edit: Besides, looking from that angle, what purpose would Ambient serve in an ipod device? Or a stb? MUI is another thing, that would make more sense since MUI could speed up application development a great deal, especially if the future development of MUI is more tailored towards these kind of devices and areas of usage. But even if Genesi obviously *wants* to keep Ambient inside the future MorphOS package (otherwise they would have publically thrown it out days ago already), there is probably a somewhat limited purpose of Ambient in any real, money making future devices that Genesi may develop for any of those markets. I guess this fact sets the limit of how much Genesi is prepared to sacrifice of any other important area that currently needs their financial attention.

Perhaps a future desktop would be best developed in open source after all? I said this in another thread earlier, but I say it again: Since the situation is the same for OS4, which will also be targeted at similar markets and devices, thus facing the same requirements and priorities (and possibly AROS too if that would ever become anything more than a hobby of a few developers), perhaps it would be a good idea of a common [open source] desktop project? A common denominator, a joint effort maintained and developed by the entire Amiga *community*? After all, it will be the *community* (and not Genesi/Hyperion) that would want/benefit the most of a desktop application like Ambient/Workbench, while Genesi/Hyperion could focus their efforts and limited resources on the *core* of their respective OS? I don't think it will happen, but what about the idea?

[ Edited by takemehomegrandma on 2004/11/23 22:35 ]

[ Edited by takemehomegrandma on 2004/11/23 22:46 ]

@tmhg

Maybe I didn't write it cleary, since I think you misunderstood me. I well understand how little conequence this small backwater of computing is and have continually remarked that it could not be the solid basis for a viable business plan.

Was it you that talked about 'input markets' or was that gary_c?

How on earth did you go off on such a tangent from my post?

Quote:

It was me.

Quote:

I just edited in some more!

(Well it's an important subject, and I can't help thinking about it )

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Nevermind the market, I think you are under-estimating the importance of keeping the developers of MorphOS involved.

If it wasn't for them, MorphOS would not exist in the first place, nor would it have gained the popularity it has with several talented people in the (now ex-) Amiga-community.

If Genesi now plans to hide/put MorphOS away for a while in order to save money on licenses for external developers, thereby cutting ties with external developers, it will just be that much harder to get people with the necessary experience and insight on board later.

Either way, I hope those of the MorphOS-developers who're eager to take the OS forward on the desktop will have an option to do so following this, with or without Genesi.

Make it right.

Quote:

Well I think there are reasons to why Genesi hasn't thrown in the towel on this yet, and those reasons are just those that you described. But I also believe that the tough reality affects their abilities, thus setting the limit in how far they can go in order of doing so; and how much of other things they can sacrifice to make this happen.