Quote:

Read the MPC5200B manual, SDRAM controller section. The pads on the board - I believe - connect 16-bit lines from each module, to the 32-bit controller (this is the standard way to do it on the MPC5200B) and there are two chip selects available for SDRAM..

The way I see it (and I have the schematics), adding 4 modules means connecting 4x 8-bit lines to the 32-bit controller and using the second chip select. The traces simply do not support this configuration. You need to add resistors etc. in places you can't get to and somehow escape a pin that's not escaped in the design.

Quote:

They won't do it. Not unless you order 1000 boards, anyway.

Quote:

Let's put it this way; it's as impossible for MorphOS to run on a Hewlett Packard HP-28C calculator as it is to MANUALLY modify an Efika to use 512MB.

You may be able to solder on new chips to support more RAM using the top solder pads (after desoldering the old ones) but finding ones with the correct specifications that are verified to work with the MPC5200B, and then hacking the firmware to do it, is beyond most people on this forum. Even then it is not guaranteed to work.

Quote:

No, it was not. It was designed to take 128MB because 512MB was cost prohibitive. The MPC5200B has been verified to use certain sizes of RAM in certain configurations with certain settings. The official line from bplan is that adding more memory requires a small board rework and sourcing new RAM chips and the minimum order is somewhere between 300 and 1000 (depending on the price per unit you wish to pay). It is not because they don't want you to try, it is because the design cannot support what you want to do to it.

Quote:

You really don't get it..

You can't, it's as simple as that.


[ Edited by Neko on 2008/12/2 18:56 ]

Maybe I don't get it because no one from bplan has stated that it can't be done! You seem to know what you are writing about, so I will give you a lot of credit, but you are not an engineer from bplan.

Neko wrote:

Quote:

This is the first time I have seen anyone write about the details of why adding more memory is physically impossible due to missing traces to the memory controller, so thanks for pointing out exactly what you think the problem is. But answer this: If the pcb was designed for only two chips of RAM as you say, why did they add the RAM solder pads to the bottom of it? What are the traces from the solder pads at the bottom of the EFIKA connected to? I mean if they intentionally left out the memory traces, why not leave out the RAM chip solder pads too?

You are probably right in how you have read the manual and schematics, but it sure would be more believable if an engineer from bplan would confirm what you have just written.

Not that I want to piss you off or anything like that, but I will continue trying to contact someone at bplan to clear up exactly what is possible and what is not possible with the EFIKA pcbs that have already been produced and sold.

Maybe as you imply, it might be possible to increase the RAM by removing the 128mb of existing RAM and replace it with 256mb if the correct chips can be found. That would be better than doing nothing.

As for what bplan will and will not do, unless you have information directly from them, other than their statement that they want a minimum number of 300 - 1000 units to produce EFIKAs with 512mb of RAM, I would rather hear directly from them.

Again I ask, why am I being met with such negativity and now hostility. When did it become a crime to ask questions and try to find better answers to problems? A simple answer of "no it can't be done and here is why" would have been sufficient. When the why is not clear or complete, then people should expect it to be questioned.

I am starting to feel like the bad guy just for asking questions and wanting to have more memory on my EFIKA. Give me a break!

@ amigadave

Well, Neko has quite some expertise in this field. He's responsible for developer relations at Genesi. And while bplan and Genesi are still two companies they are also tied quite close together.
Neko really knows of what he's talking when speaking about the Efika.
He answered you quite detailed.
In essence: There is no way to upgrade existing Efikas other than finding electrically and physically compatiblle RAM chips that would replace the both existing ones. And still it would be some kind of lottery and require additional work in the firmware.

About your hostility feelings: I guess there aren't any. Only that most of 'us old morphers' may have the feeling of a way too often experienced 'been there, done that-feeling' (in one or the other way) and thus are not overwhelmed by those approaches. But that shouldn't stop you in general. New arrivals bring some fresh air, some momentum. I guess most ppl appreciate your enthusiasm.
But about the RAM upgrade, as much as I would appreciate that, I doubt it is feasible. I wouldn't waste my energy on it.

Quote:

Well then, I suppose we'll have to port MorphOS to the HP-28C now, thanks a lot... :P


- CISC

Quote:

Talking about ports... How about the MPC5121e? This complex SoC looks impressive on paper (e300 core + PowerVR 3D + AXE DSP), but in the end, performs no better than a plain MPC5200, when used by "regular" operating systems.

Does the MorphOS Team have what it takes to make the MPC5121e shine?

Alright, rethoric question...

My goodness!!! I've unintentionally flooded this thread, because the server didn't respond when I submitted my post. So I retried several times, all of them with failure. And now I see that every attempt really worked! How strange...

[ Edited by jcmarcos on 2008/12/3 17:20 ]

@ jcmarcos

I'd say forget about the 5121. Who's going to make a 5121 based device? Cherrypal - seems not. THTF - well, not? Genesi - no!
Any other producer? Sure there are some and maybe you can ask Kontron or the likes, but I doubt you will find any producer making a cheap enduser board out of the 5121. Chapter closed (at least for now).
I have to add: unfortunately.

The highest hopes are on the 8610. If it comes that one actually *can* become a success (given the price will be right and it won't be delayed too much).

No one wants to answer my questions?

I will repeat them so they are clear, plus add one or two. The answer of "you just don't get it", and "it is not worth worrying about", or "just forget it, it can't be done", are not helpful and I would expect more from any manager of any kind of relations.

1. If the EFIKA pcb was designed for only two chips of RAM as you say, why did they add the RAM solder pads to the bottom of it?

2. What are the traces from the solder pads at the bottom of the EFIKA connected to (the controller, or nothing)?

3. If bplan intentionally left out the required number of memory traces (as I think neko implied), why not leave out the RAM chip solder pads (on the bottom of the EFIKA) too?

4. Somewhere on the www there exists a clip (that I have seen, but can't find again at this moment) of a salesman, or engineer at a computer show who is showing the EFIKA board. IIRC he points out the solder pads at the bottom of the EFIKA board and remarks about the ability to install additional RAM. Is this salesman/engineer (who I assume is from bplan) simply incorrect about what he is showing and saying, or is my memory of the clip just incorrect, and he does not show the extra solder pads?

I am just trying to clear up these questions, which I think are perfectly good and reasonable questions to ask.

Maybe the answer to all my questions is simply that bplan made a mistake in the design of the board and found it after the production run, that it could only accept 128mb of RAM, which led to their statement that neko repeated, that a "rework" of the board would be required to allow 512mb of RAM to be installed. If that is the case then the buyers should have been told.

When I purchased my EFIKA I thought it could be expanded to a maximum of 512mb of RAM, though it might be difficult, or a bit expensive to have it done. I had not seen any information that it was impossible to add RAM to the EFIKA just a short two and a half months ago when I purchased.

I am new to MorphOS and wish to become a valuable MorphOS developer and supporter in the not too distant future (hint to the manager of developer relations for genesi). I purchased the EFIKA because it was available, and though I knew it's limitations regarding USB1.1 and no available PCI slots, I had hoped to be able to learn about MorphOS and begin programming for it. That is still my goal, but now I wonder if I will be able to accomplish much with the limited RAM I have.

Quote:

I've red throughly your post and, in my opinion, your own answers to your questions are right. Matt Sealey, as Genesi's developer relations manager, is the most accurate source of information about bPlan hardware, aside from bPlan themselves. Actually, the most accurate information should come from Gerald Carda and Thomas Knaebel, but I don't think they can be reached easily.
Further down the hypothesis, perhaps they could say that the firmware is to blame, but that would be dead end too. Statistics say that hypothesis coming from me are right in 10% occasions (and that's optimistic!).
As far as I know, there's no more new Efika boards being made, so it's just another case of taking the product as it is, it's finished that way.

Quote:

Indeed, that video exists, we've all seen it. But there's no clear transcription of what is said and, most of all, it wouldn't be contractual at all. But I understand you: It's not surprising that a buyer believes that the Efika's memory is expandable, while in practical, it's not. The video can be misleading about this subject.
It's like the Pegasos own history: It has a CPU slot, with all the technical challenges it brings.it was marketed as a CPU interchangeable computer, but nobody has used a different CPU card in the same motherboard.

I guess that, by now, you mighr think that there's been enough talk about this subject already.

Quote:

THIS is the important thing!

Quote:

q1 & q2:
my thoughts: it's standart pcd design. I think that is cheaper to develop one common (universal) industral design of pcb for all variants than to develop some different pcb designs for each variant

q3:
Quote:
Quote:

q4:
page: http://www.ppcnux.de/?q=node/6614
video: http://images.pegasosppc.com/movies/ftf/efika_divx.avi


so, for me list of problems looks something like that:
a: variant with chip-add
Quote:
1. to find mb pcb scheme
2. to add that resistors to "places you can't get to"
3. to make changes in closedsource firmware

b: variant with chip-replacement
Quote:
1. to find proper gigabit chips with correct specification
2. to make changes in closedsource firmware

@jmarcos,

If that is the case, I should probably insist that bplan purchase my EFIKA mobo back from me due to false advertising and I will just wait for MorphOS to be released on the MacMini, like the rest of the members here.

...

@ amigadave

With humble respect, but I guess there's nothing you can blame bplan on. Re-read the specs at bplan's website: http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/output.php?PAGE_ID=168&LANG_ID=2

Quote:

I don't see anything that says more Ram could be added later...

Let me add I would really like if there was a possibilty, but noone promised there would be any. Thus, i am not surprised or disappointed.

@amigadave

Quote:

Why not? 128MB is not much these days but GCC does not need megabytes of RAM.

It is perfectly possible to develop software with 128MB system. I have developed software using Peg1 with 128MB of RAM and with Amiga 1200 running MorphOS with 96MB of RAM. On those days MorphOS used less ram than MorphOS 2 now does and you have to watch out memory usage but still it is usable if you are not intending to port Firefox.

Quote:
MorphOS itself was initially created on and using machines with as much as or even less RAM than an Efika. So...

with all its limitations and issues, it's
just not a practical system for computing
enjoyment for first time or seasoned
morphers for that matter. Memory just
runs out too quickly is doing multiple
tasks, and the inability to stay consistant
with universal serial bus issues.
I gave up arguing on this a while back
because I know realize I was dooped!
I love the OS, but it's just too hard
to enjoy it on efika
I'm with Dave...it should be a return
policy, but hey? I'll be very cautious
with the next platform release. I also
wanted to tinker with programming after
d/ling recent software, it was mentioned
that it's not an issue so we'll see
Hang in there AmigaDave.....

On another note, it should be clear in the
future what limits the next ported hardware
has.. One I know of already is that if
you do get a mac mini, it should be
a 1.5ghz as that one has the radeon 64mb
graphic card, which MorphOs requires at
a minimum to do anything serious. Just
tell us the issues upfront!

Efika is what it is ...a lowcost intro
into MorphOS. I'd love if it could be
made to do more,but That's how it is.

posted with sputnik

Thanks for the support xyphoid.

I just got off the phone with someone from Genesi and I must say that all my questions were answered to my satisfaction and more. I was very surprised to get the call, and I have more respect for Genesi now than I have ever had before for any Amiga related company.

I will not quote what was said without asking his permission out of respect, though nothing secret was talked about, to my knowledge.

As others have pointed out, programming for MorphOS has been done in the past on machines with the same, or less memory than I now have on my EFIKA, so I will start with what I have got and go as far as I can. As I stated before, as a beginning programmer, it will likely take some time before I am working on projects large enough to create a problem on my EFIKA. By then, hopefully all of us will have new hardware available to us, to run MorphOS on, be that a MacMini, or the next step in small, efficient MorphOS computers.

I am going to stop regretting my choice to purchase an EFIKA and make the best of it. I bought it because MorphOS is the best "future AmigaOS", and what it lacks is software to bring us more MorphOS users, not just different hardware. I can't help on the hardware side, so I will do my best to learn more about programming for MorphOS and help where I can with new software. I hope that more members here will do the same.

Edit: xyphoid keep it quiet about which MacMini is the only one to come with the 64mb Radeon graphics card! Are you trying to drive the prices of them up, or what??? They are hard enough to find as it is right now. I have been keeping a watch on them just to see if I can get lucky and find one for about $200 US dollars, which is about half of what they are selling for on eBay.

[ Edited by amigadave on 2008/12/4 18:30 ]

@AmigaDave
ha ha you and me both buddy!
just let me know so we don't butt heads
they are already high..
Mom's the word though!

posted with sputnik

Quote:

Maybe we should start a list or site for MorphOS users that are in the market for G4 MacMini computers with a list of all found sales listings on the Internet and papers and have the group only do the bidding, so we are not fighting each other and raising the prices up beyond where they should be.

The first ones on the list get the first MacMini's purchased. If they don't like the price, then it goes to the next one down the list, and so on. There would have to be a set maximum amount to bid, or offer for them, but if the Mac was got for less, then it would just be the good fortune of the person on the top of the list at that moment.

The last few on eBay seem to have sold for about $300 to $400 US dollars. Some come with keyboards and a mouse and even a small LCD monitor, but some come with nothing but the MacMini itself.

I think that $300 is not a bad price for the 1.5GHz version w/64mb Radeon graphics card, with, or without a keyboard or mouse. But it would be nice to find one for around $200 - $250 and just hold on to it until MorphOS3.x is released.

I like the reports that it is running almost twice as fast as the Pegasos2 w/G4 @ 1GHz. I think that report may have been from the 1.42GHz MacMini instead of the 1.5GHz model.

Quote:

Well that is not entirely true. You can do just fine with lower ammounts of gfx ram as long as you don't use 3d layers.

Quote:
AFAIK there is also the 1,33ghz version that has a 64mb radeon...

@amigadave

Quote:

You probably mean this thread.

I have no idea about that video though.

Quote:
Nope.

Quote:

I think I gave you a decent reply about why. I certainly don't appreciate these slights against my character nor the intimation that you require "proof!" as a response to my initial post on the subject.

I am being as helpful as I can in my role, you started out just being disrespectful.

~

Let's go over it again.

The solder pads are connected. They're connected exactly as it would need to be to fit 4 chips to support 512MB. However the components etc. on the board supports 2 chips at 128MB total.

The board can be modified to support 512MB - it was designed so that no *PCB* changes had to be made and therefore minimal recertification costs - and based on a certain number of 1Gbit chips which were prohibitively expensive at the time of design and/or not generally available, and it's possible PROBABLY to fit two 2Gbit chips to use the same solder pads at the top (which make the underside ones totally irrelevant) however this is something that needs to be done in production.

Let's take an example; you might look at motherboards in the PC world which have solder pads for a second DIMM slot, but you cannot just solder in a new DIMM slot. Manufacturers save costs by not populating the components required to support the slot.

It's not possible to simply "mod" the Efika to support it. Subtle things may be missing.. missing them out may damage the hardware and your new memory chips. We simply do not recommend it because it is far more work than it is worth for you personally and for us as a company, not only that but down to minimum orders of memory chips and lead times.

As for the firmware - it needs to configure the SDRAM controller to the right settings on boot; this relies on intimate knowledge of which RAM is on board. It also requires knowledge of the configuration of that RAM (which chip is where and how many and what size). This also needs to be solved in pre-production - the RAM must be validated to work, the right settings used and tested vigorously to ensure proper operation. It's possible some RAM will not work reliably on the MPC5200B in the configuration it needs to be. It certainly will be much, much lower performance due to the restricted bus width (it drops down to 16-bit in the 4-chip configuration supported on the board, from 32-bit with just the two chips).

Therefore if you want a 512MB Efika, you need to order 1000 of them to make it worth our while, wait a long time, and have to be prepared for it not to be as fast.

[ Edited by Neko on 2008/12/5 17:29 ]

I was going to just drop this subject and let your attacks, insults and incorrect statements go, but here you go again calling me disrespectful, but this time you are changing what you have already written to correct your mistake(s). It is not I that started out being disrespectful, it is the other way around.

Quote:

Perhaps you did not see, or you choose to ignore my later post that I will quote for you.

Quote:

It seems that you prefer to again insult and attack potential new developers instead of simply answering my questions, or having a civilized discussion. I did not attack you, nor even question your knowledge until you treated me with disrespect.

Also, your previous answers just did not make sense, which caused me to continue to seek answers.

On 12/1/2008 you wrote:
Quote:

My response on 12/1/2008 was:
Quote:

And

Quote:

Now, on 12/5/2008, you have changed what you are saying and you wrote:
Quote:

That is exactly the point I was trying to make in the post I quoted myself above from 12/1/2008. The EFIKA PCB that I have is exactly the same as every other EFIKA PCB, and the same as would be used to create a 256mb, or 512mb RAM EFIKA. Yes, other components would need to be added, and/or some of them replaced to allow more RAM to work on the EFIKA, but it was POSSIBLE, just not probable, or cost effective, as I finally learned.

On 11/30/2008 I wrote:
Quote:

And it was not until after talking to Bill on the phone and reading your post today, that I got the simple answer that the Open Firmware must be altered for the EFIKA to use more than 128mb of RAM.

How difficult would it have been when I first asked my questions to simply tell me that the Open Firmware for the EFIKA configures not the maximum RAM allowable, but the exact size of RAM installed on board and the specific type of RAM chips used, like you finally did in your message quoted above, and Bill did over the phone in just a few words? You could have just said that it is too expensive to rewrite the Open Firmware for the EFIKA, or the cost of altering the Open Firmware would be X amount of dollars, which would have made it clear that it is not cost effective.

Instead, this is how you, as the manager of developer relations answers questions:

On 12/1/2008 you wrote:
Quote:

Then, on 12/2/2008:
Quote:

To which on 12/2/2008 I replied:
Quote:

I never attacked you personally, or wrote that you were incorrect in anything except that your implication that the pcb was not the same as would be used by the factory to create the 512mb, or 256mb RAM versions of the EFIKA did not seem credible to me (which turned out, I was correct about).

I did imply that I was not happy with the way in which you, Neko, Matt Sealey, Manager of Developer Relations for Genesi, were answering, or not answering my questions, treating me disrespectfully and with increasing hostility, but that was after several postings. I think that until now, I kept my postings very civil and restrained from any outright attacks on anyone's comments or answers.

I am not a door mat for you to wipe your feet on, nor am I one of the sheep to blindly follow and not ask questions when answers don't make sense.

It is unfortunate that this thread has come to this point, as I have already stated several times that it is my intention to add value to this community, not detract from it. I do not relish in stirring up any negative actions or words from anyone here, but will not sit back and take crap from anyone. I have done nothing that I need to apologize for here. All I was after was information, which I finally have acquired.

[ Edited by amigadave on 2008/12/7 10:17 ]

Hi,

I have tested a pegasos 1 with only 128Mb and it's too little for my personnal use. I usually watching a video when i do another things like surfing, simplemail is launched at the startup to scan mail everytime. So... out of memory is near.

Why efika's users are not making a list of who is interested to have 256Mb ?
With this list, you can ask bplan to have a upgrade and the price.