@ASiegel

A number of developers return (I can remember one here posting recently) because it seems that it is offering more fun and additional it will give them more potential users and easier distribution because you can run it almost everywhere. The "pain" can be solved easily, drop "NG" . We will see how the situation will be in a year from now, I do not believe that much will improve regarding "NG".

Regarding users, for me a user is someone who can theoretical use (and buy) my software, if he uses the OS daily or a couple of hours weekly is not interesting to me. If you look f.e. on facebook pages you can see how much bigger the potential 68k market is compared to NG, you also see it when looking at amiga 68k orientated hardware projects, activity on 68k orientated forums, there is nothing NG related that can compare.

@ OlafSch

>>The "pain" can be solved easily, drop "NG" . We will see how the situation will be in a year from now, I do not believe that much will improve regarding "NG".

Seriously? The only thing slower than the development pace of OS4 is the development pace of the legacy community.
See you next year.

>> If you look f.e. on facebook pages you can see how much bigger the potential 68k market is compared to NG, you also see it when looking at amiga 68k orientated hardware projects, activity on 68k orientated forums, there is nothing NG related that can compare.

So what do you propose they run their software on?
Machines that are 25 years old or via hardware or software emulations of machines that are 25 years old? ;)

You really can't compare NG to legacy 68K.
We can actually run modern applications.

Hey, I play around with the old stuff, I get utility from the new.




[ Edited by Jim 23.06.2016 - 08:10 ]

the emulation outperforms most of your NG machines (except G5 or X1000 or similar). Modern software? Which? Even the browser is old and expecially slow in modern terms (without JIT) today.

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"Fun" is subjective and individual. Of course many people enjoy retro computing, there are different things appealing to different people about it. Nothing wrong with that. The C64 scene is also full of fun-having people I heard. Good for them!

But what you seemingly constantly fail to understand is that not everyone is interested in retro computing. Some wants an evolved environment. There is no right or wrong here, just different scopes and interests, and they are not the same thing, so they are not interchangeable.

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Or make it truly NG. Which is what us NG people are interested in. Going retro is sufficient if you like to play with the old, real gears, but that's not the issue here really.

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The NG is a long term project, don't pretend otherwise, and please don't set up nonsense deadlines.

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Yeah, and if you look at web traffic of AmigaWorld.net and Morph.zone it's obvious that OS4 is so much more alive, right? Lol! Look, there is no market, nowhere! Development isn't market driven, not anywhere. It's all down to personal interest.

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I see Jens is about to release a new "A1200". That's interesting from a retro point of view, I would have considered it myself at a reasonable price, as some kind of a toy. But that's about it, IMHO, and it will be a one-time happening.

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Apples and oranges.

I just can't see me going back to 68k for everyday/productivity use, it would just be too big step backwards when comparing to MorphOS. And I can't see why anyone would develop such software for 68k anymore. Would anyone seriously expect someone using such software under emulation if their main OS is something else? Real and emulated HW is also way too limiting. Speed can be good, but all the other limits by HW and OS.

I've kept my 68k Amigas up and running and use them weekly, but they're used purely for gaming and demos nowadays. It just would be unpleasant to go back to OS3.x with productivity use, I just love the _existing_ improvements on MorphOS too much and take them for granted now. If something should be emulated, it should be some MorphOS compatible machine, and not the old Amigas with their restrictions.

68k scene seems to be nowadays more like "Look I can do this and add this with this old machine! How cool! We're getting this and that soon(tm)!" which results one test with the end product by the end user, and maybe photo of doing it, but do they actually use any new things for real (except some HW addons)? I don't think so. It's old games which people use 68k machines really.

[ Edited by jPV 23.06.2016 - 17:14 ]

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Our browser is SO much more up to date than yours that your comment is laughable.

And emulation still limits what software you can run so your idea it "outperforming" anything more modern is rqually ridiculous.

@OlofSch

I don't understand why you keep coming here to tell us we don't really exist.

[ Edited by Yasu 23.06.2016 - 17:31 ]

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My following comment does not include AROS or MorphOS, both of which have different goals and to varying degrees achieved those goals. Neither claim to be "teh true" Amiga either.

The C64 scene is so, so much healthier than than Amiga scene. I gave up on the Amiga scene years ago as it is a toxic wasteland. Sure there has been a (very) small handful of cool products, but they are few and very far between. Only the new Vampire stuff raises a slight eyebrow with me. So much effort has ben placed on killing the "Amiga Classic" over the last 2 decades, starting with Gateway/Amiga through the McBill and now HYPErion years. Too many people waited for the fake dangling carrot that they never got. The current OS4 machines are a joke to me. Ridiculously overpriced boutique systems will never have a healthy following.

The C64 scene OTOH is truly going through a 2nd golden age. From truly nifty hardware constantly being released, to a plethora of quality new commercial game releases, to daily releases or quality software (not even mentioning demos). While there are some knuckleheads in the 64 community, overall the market and the community is vastly superior. It is a really a fun time to me a C= user these days.

Yes the 64 and 128 sold more than the C= Amiga line, but that's no excuse. The C= Amiga lines sold in the millions too. I'd argue even the Atari 8bit community is healthier than the Amiga community in 2016. That thought is just pathetic, but there weren't companies and people actively trying to kill the Atari 8 bit community off.

Well, those system died an honorable death. The Amiga didn't. It was slow, painful and full of false hope. Which has colored the souls of the hardcore few to this day.

@ redrumloa

I have an Atari XE with a 6809 processor, expanded memory, an video enhancement board and a second sound chip.

But some of that hardware was created (or is neing sold) by the guy that developed the Mist board.
And he has his hands in other Amiga related projects as well.

I have no particular love for the C64.
It uses a 6502 based processor and I was mever impressed with that.

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You do realize the Atari XT computers were released in 1985 while the C64 was released in 1982? A little bit apples and oranges. A better comparison would be the 128D. Basically Atari's last 8bit compared to Commodore's last 8bit. The 128D(and 128) had both an 8510 and Z80A. The 128 line sold about 6M units worldwide.

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Why? From a programmer's perspective?

There were a few really nice 65816 based accelerators for the C64 and C128 if you like those better. They are a bit hard to come by these days and expensive, but a few projects out there may bring a new one in the future.



[ Edited by redrumloa 23.06.2016 - 16:58 ]

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Yes, I agree that McBill was (and is) nothing more than a con man trying to make a quick dollar any way he can, but towards the end of his ownership of the IP rights to AmigaOS, he realized that non of his other scams were working out, and that there was still some interest in a continuation of AmigaOS on PPC hardware. Even though McBill never created anything tangible, I am sure he would have found someone else, or some other way to move forward with AmigaOS4.x, if he had not contracted Hyperion to do the port to PPC. In fact, if there had not been the interference of Hyperion and their scheme to steal the IP rights to AmigaOS from McBill, there is a strong possibility that McBill would have reconsidered the offer of the MorphOS Dev. Team, or reached some kind of compromise with regards to ownership of the new code created.

Wow, what a difference that would have made. Just imagine how different things would be if there were no Hyperion involvement in the Amiga universe, and MorphOS was supported by all NG Amiga users (maybe not the AROS group, as they only wanted Open Source from the beginning) from the start, as the official continuation of AmigaOS. I believe we would be much better off, and years ahead of where we are now, and that it would have made a difference even on the hardware choices that A-Eon has made, or A-Eon would have never needed to be created, if Amiga Inc. and AmigaOS4 (created by the MorphOS Dev. Team) were the reality we had lived through, instead of the impossible situation of a thief dragging a struggling company with a con man running it through years of court battles. If I remember correctly, McBill contacted, or was contacted by Ralph Schimdt and the MorphOS Dev. Team first, well before the contract to create AmigaOS4 was awarded to Hyperion.

No use speculating how things would be though, as that boat has sailed long ago, and can never return.

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BTW nowadays you can add a Turbo Chameleon 64 expansion and get not just a vastly expanded C64, but also ability to run many other system "cores", including Amiga (Minimig) and Atari 800XL.

[ Edited by redrumloa 23.06.2016 - 17:03 ]

@OlafSch
Ten, fifteen years ago everyone waited for Hyperion to succeed and take over the (Amiga) world. This is the reason why so many people did not go into MorphOS or AROS - because both was not the “official” way. The PR machinery of a certain lawyer and his neverending claim “all but us are illegal” (without ever any proof) destroyed the last hopes for a collaboration and common development of the different camps (which was totally what that certain person aimed for). But other than thinking on their own ("hey man, he just claims and he is a studied lawyer. If it is his daily profession for decades, why can't he bring the slightest proof to his claim?") many people liked what he said and followed their shepherds who told them “go the official way no matter what it will bring, no matter what it will cost, no matter when (if?) it will ever be available. Never look aside or you will get blind. I will SUE you until you get blind!!!”. Those phrases held back many many people from better alternatives (AROS and MorphOS). The OS4 followers put all their expectations into Hyperion and claimed “Hyperion will rule them all” by repeating those phrases again and again. No one at that time would have thought that Hyperion will suck completely at maintaining the AmigaOS. No one but … well … all those who knew that Hyperion was a company for porting games which has totally completely absolutely definitely nothing to do with developing an operating system. So no one but everyone outside Hyperion and their sheeps. Hyperion did not just f:ck up OS4 but the whole Amiga scene. Thanks, Hyperion!


Quote:.

This is … well: like telling Microsoft: “some old Win95 applications do not run anymore with Windows 8. Simple solution: throw away all improvements and go back to make it run with Win95”.

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Me either. It will take years, I guess. Until then I enjoy my system without penetrating others all day why their system sucks. Could you do the same, maybe?

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So if we cannot compare to you, why do you always come here to boast your <peep> we can never reach? Go facebook, stay 68k but don’t tell a CinePlex “hey man, remember good old black/white movie days? Your colour movies suck and I know better than you. Go back and buy a b/w projector, I want you to show me the real movies (although I know that you can because already have them all, hahaha)”. Are you a lawyer maybe?

@amigadave

You have to remember that the core of the Amino&Hype contract was that both sides thought they had just pulled a big one over the other one (50.000$ buyback vs. bancruptsy clause), anyone else taking that deal would either have to be morally atleast as corrupt as Ben Hermans or would have been thrown under the bus.


Or in short there is a very good reason why MorphOS did not end up named AmigaOS........

Quote:

6809 over 6502?
Yeah, from a programming perspective.
Multiply instruction (with a divide command added the Hitachi 6309), a 16 bit accumulator (2 in the 6309 concatable into a 32 bit accumulator), support for position independant code (6502 limitions across contiguous memory addresses are really annoying), a lot of other differences.

It was too expensive though.

The 6502 didn't offer much improvement over the 6800 (except for price).
The 6809 did.

The higher speed Western chips are interesting though particularly the 65816.

And I have on hand some Western 65C21 PIA adapter chips because they are rated at such a higher clock speed than Motorola, Hitachi, or MOS peripheral interface adapters.

The HD63C09 is rated at 3 MHz and will overclock to 4 or 5 MHz, but everyone elses PIA chips top out at 2 MHz.

But you're right, interest in 8 bit is still strong. Its simple enough to consider machine code and directly hammering the hardware.

It makes a good starting point to learning how microprocessors actually work.
And if challenging its still kind of fun.




[ Edited by Jim 23.06.2016 - 20:38 ]

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Yes, period was ugly.
And didn't Bill want control of the OS?

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I don't agree with your "personal view", and would argue that most of the NG Amiga users (of all 3 camps) are NOT here for ONLY retro reasons. Yes, they may currently be forced to use a PC or Mac for many of their computing needs, but that is not by choice, it is because none of the NG Amiga platforms currently have the capability to do everything they need/want to do. If/When any of the NG Amiga platforms are capable of doing most, or all of the computing tasks that these NG Amiga users need/want, then they can greatly reduce, or possibly eliminate their dependence on PC or Mac computers. Completely eliminating the need to use a PC or Mac might never be possible, but the need can certainly be greatly reduced, over time.

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The Vampire/Apollo project is very interesting to users still interested in 68k software and hardware, but many Amiga users have gotten over the novelty of the original Amiga hardware and the elegance of its original pre-emptive OS. Some, like me, are interested in both the 68k and NG camps, while others, like yourself, are only interested in one or the other and sometimes rant against the other camp(s), as they misguidedly regard them as some kind of opposition. Regarding modern software for the NG platform(s), not much can be created, until a truly modern NG OS is created, without the limitations of the legacy system that inspired it, and development tools equal to what is available for other modern platforms are available, or at least tools that are close to being equal to existing tools for Windows, Linux and Mac platforms. We all know that this transition will take a very long time, but many of us are not content with how Windows, Linux and MacOSX work, and know that there is a better way. MorphOS NG will not soon over take any modern OS, but it might slowly grow in popularity, if it can operate similar to how the original Amiga worked, while slowly incorporating all the features currently present in those other modern OSes. It will take a very long time, maybe decades, and it may not succeed because it may die due to lack of user support, or the Dev. Team may lose interest and no longer wish to devote their free time working on it, but I fully support the current direction of the MorphOS Dev. Team and look forward to seeing what they can come up with over the next 5 to 10 years. You may say that you are not interested in 64bit, SMP & MP for any NG Amiga inspired platform, but I bet when it arrives, you will be interested enough to check it out and see what it is capable of. At that time, you may find that MorphOS of x64 is something you want to use and support (in addition to your continuing interest in 68k and/or Open Source projects).

I think you mistake developers of NG Amiga software, who now show some renewed interest in 68k hardware and software projects. I don't believe that any of them have completely given up on NG Amiga systems, just because they show an interest in anything related to 68k projects.

I don't think that MorphOS for x64 will be finished within the next 12 months (but would love to be proved wrong, the MorphOS Dev. Team is really amazing regarding what they can produce in a reasonable amount of time), so lets revisit this discussion in 2 or 3 years, and I will gladly accept your apology for the disbelief in the abilities of the MorphOS Dev. Team, and the desires of most Amiga users, you have expressed in this thread.

[ Edited by amigadave 23.06.2016 - 14:30 ]

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That is what happens when you put two crooks in the same room to make a deal with each other, everyone gets screwed!

Its just like politics. Soon, it looks like the American voters will have a choice to vote for a financial criminal, or a raving lunatic, who happens to also be a financial criminal, to be their next President.


Given enough time without interference from other greedy people, or companies, I believe that McBill and the MorphOS Dev. Team could have come to an agreement, specially once McBill saw how MorphOS was shaping up, and how talented the MorphOS Dev. Team members are. I don't know the exact history and dates of when work on MorphOS began, in relation to the dates discussions regarding creating AmigaOS4.x between McBill and the MorphOS Dev. Team, but my impression is that work on MorphOS had begun before those discussions. I don't know what state of completion MorphOS was in, when talks with McBill took place.


@Jim,

Yes, McBill wanted complete control of the OS that would be created as AmigaOS4.x. I can see why the MorphOS Dev. Team did not want that to happen, but I also understand Amiga Inc.'s position of wanting to contract people to create something for a price, and to then own what Amiga Inc. had paid for, although Amiga Inc. most likely couldn't come up with the amount of money MorphOS would have been really worth at that time, and certainly couldn't sustain development of AmigaOS4.x into the future, unless it was completed quickly enough, at the time we still had several hundred thousand users willing to buy AmigaOS4.x and then pay for upgrades to keep the development going forward.

[ Edited by amigadave 23.06.2016 - 15:09 ]

Quote:

That's because you have a system that guarantees that only financial criminals can afford to take part.

So it was with Amiga as well - it was hysterically overpriced, and each of its successive owners after Commodore not only had to work out how to make money from it, but make up for how royally screwed they were by the last owners. Of course it was going to fall into the hands of scammers, what else could it really do? Escom were trying to sell basic A1200 "surf" systems that couldn't load a typical 90s webpage in less than 30 seconds for about the same price as a PC. Gateway didn't know what the f to do with what they had bought.

A lot of good companies tried to get the Amiga name and failed, and some not so good ones. In the end Amino did because they had plans, plans that didn't involve them doing any work. I believe that they did pay a huge sum for it, but that money was probably borrowed from unwitting investors thinking they were going to get the next coming of Jesus in silicon.

Quote:

McEwen is cancer. You don't intentionally give yourself cancer.

> I think you mistake developers of NG Amiga software, who now show some renewed
> interest in 68k hardware and software projects. I don't believe that any of them
> have completely given up on NG Amiga systems, just because they show an interest
> in anything related to 68k projects.

I'm afraid at least one of them may have:

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11522&forum=32&start=2
http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11682&forum=9&start=35
http://krashan.ppa.pl/articles/hardware/index_en.html

Quote:

Funny you say that, given no 68k browser can open a facebook page :)

> my impression is that work on MorphOS had begun before those discussions.

Yes, of course. It was Olaf "olsen" Barthel who presented MorphOS to Amiga Inc.

> I don't know what state of completion MorphOS was in, when talks with McBill took place.

It was the time of MorphOS 0.4 to 0.8.

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2001-02-00161-EN.html
http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2001-10-00203-EN.html

> Amiga Inc.'s position of wanting to contract people to create something
> for a price, and to then own what Amiga Inc. had paid for

According to what is known about those discussions, they were never about Amiga Inc. paying for the development but about Amiga Inc. merely throwing in the "Amiga" naming rights and maybe a Workbench license (Ambient came only later).

> at the time we still had several hundred thousand users willing to buy AmigaOS4.x

I think it was one order of magnitude less.

> Gateway didn't know what the f to do with what they had bought.

Of course they did. They wanted it just for the patents.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2016-05-00050-DE.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fStICmcjK9k

And these turned out to be really useful for Gateway between 2004 and 2006:

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7509&start=15

> that money was probably borrowed from unwitting investors

Yes, that's a known fact.

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2001-01-00258-EN.html
https://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/#TOC-1998-1999:-Gateway-Scraps-Amiga-Brand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentti_Kouri

> thinking they were going to get the next coming of Jesus in silicon.

Amiga Inc. was about software, not hardware ;-)

Hello all,

the licence should be free and the users could donate to a paypal button on official website.

I think it will come many news users and developers...