Open Power
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    >> A bit of secrecy for this OpenPower hardware.. ;-)

    > Yes, unfortunately, the PowerPi SIG operates in complete confidentiality.

    Statement on PowerPi by the Libre-SOC project lead and Technical Director of RED Semiconductor:

    "Toshaan Bharvani started the PowerPI initiative, but it was soon taken over by naive people believing that you can get a 5 watt system to do 4-core 3 ghz 7 nm with 128-bit-wide DDR3/4/5 memory and multiple lanes of PCIe and multiple lanes of OpenCAPI in under a budget of USD 10 million, when 7nm Mask Charges are $10 million on their own."
    https://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2023/03/msg00014.html

    I'm not really sure what to make of this.
  • »21.03.23 - 23:37
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > of course, also this significant event doesn't come without
    > some dubious statements from the project lead:
    > "Libre-SOC […] is the first wholly-independent Power ISA ASIC
    > outside of IBM to go Silicon in 12 years." […]
    > He tried again and failed once more:
    > "our […] test ASIC […] is […] the world's first Power ISA 3.0 [ASIC]
    > outside of IBM to reach Silicon in over 12 years."

    Seems that whenever he has not the slightest clue when it was that something happened or became available, he claims it was (over) 12 years ago:

    "what has been developed […] is the biggest upgrade to the Power ISA since Motorola's VLE Book of over 12 years ago"
    https://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2023/04/msg00008.html

    Book VLE was officially added to the Power ISA with v2.03 in 2006, so 17 years ago (and then completely deleted from it with ISA v3.0 in 2015). The VLE instruction set itself (as well as processors implementing it) was even available from several years earlier than that, as extension to Book E.
  • »10.04.23 - 20:39
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 536 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    An RFC with the full list of the LibreSoC scalar instruction set (klick), waiting for comments before external review of the OpenPower ISA working group.
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »19.04.23 - 10:54
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > LibreSoC scalar instruction set (klick)

    "Power ISA Scalar (SFFS) has not been significantly advanced in 12 years"

    Power ISA v2.06 was released 14 years ago, v2.07 10 years ago. Everything happened 12 years ago apparently, always ;-)
    (Besides, the current compliancy subsets including SFFS were first published as such with Power ISA v3.0C as recently as 3 years ago.)
  • »19.04.23 - 16:50
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > Several press releases from RED Semiconductor:
    > "Vector+1 [...] SVP64 [...] Vantage"

    Apparently, those terms have vanished from the prominent spots of the website. Instead, it's now about VISC. Maybe an advice by (one of) the new advisers?
  • »13.07.23 - 11:01
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > Statement on PowerPi by the Libre-SOC project lead and
    > Technical Director of RED Semiconductor: […]
    > https://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2023/03/msg00014.html
    > I'm not really sure what to make of this.

    POWERπ got mentioned as ongoing project at EuroBSDCon 2023 by the Chair of the OpenPOWER Foundation's Technical Steering Committee:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj4Q-m_WEh0 (4:25 and 32:03)

    - open source (whatever that means)
    - dual-core
    - 500 EUR target price (up from 150 USD, see comment #213)

    More interesting points from this presentation:
    - Raptor will announce Power10-based hardware very soon (at 3:52 and 41:30)
    - Microsoft will manufacture hardware based on Power ISA v3.1 / Power10 (Huh?)
    - plan for workstations for 1000…1500 EUR target price (at 24:32 and 31:26)
    - something called "PowerSBC" (which is apparently different from POWERπ)
    - Single Board Computers (same as above?) in 2024/2025 (at 31:34)

    (There're also many pure nonsense claims in this talk like the e6500-based PowerPC notebook project being Power ISA v3.1 (instead of v2.06), or IBM having been the only manufacturer of Power-based CPUs in the past, or POWER being from the 1960s, or going PPC64LE (2013/2014) and making the ISA royalty-free (2019/2020) happening at the same time, or new compliancy subsets starting with ISA v3.1 (instead of v3.0C), or OpenPOWER microcontroller systems currently being available.)
  • »03.10.23 - 21:35
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 536 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Very interesting, thanks for sharing @Andreas_Wolf!

    What was not clear to me is the huge difference in processor instruction count needed to implement an ISA v3.1 CPU. Nice that you can get away with just about ~200 instructions. Feels more RISC-like also. ;-)

    Also if it's true we will get ~1500 EUR Power10 boards early next year which would be earlier than the PowerPC notebook to be expected. ;-)
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »05.10.23 - 09:18
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 350 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Quote:

    ernsteiswuerfel wrote:
    Also if it's true we will get ~1500 EUR Power10 boards early next year which would be earlier than the PowerPC notebook to be expected. ;-)



    yes, it will be nice, if... ;-)

    A couple of years ago I have in plan to buy Talos II with Power 9, price these time with one 4-core CPU was around 2000 USD. But price start to rise very fast and today it is nearly 5000 USD. Even Blackbird with few PCIe is 3000 USD today. So I don't have any.

    So if there will be Power 10 entry board with price around 1500 EUR, it is exactly for me. And MorpHOS or AmigaOS. But we will see if it will be fiction or real...
    AmigaOS3: Amiga 1200
    AmigaOS4: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »05.10.23 - 10:23
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > What was not clear to me is the huge difference in processor
    > instruction count needed to implement an ISA v3.1 CPU. Nice
    > that you can get away with just about ~200 instructions.

    As outlined in comment #186, implementing a Power ISA core with ~200 instructions (SFFS, which is LCS minus SIMD/64-bit/LE and some more) or even much less (SFS, which is SFFS minus FP) is also possible and has actually been done with Power ISA v2 (see the e200z0 core as extreme example), except that it was called 'category' back then instead of 'compliancy subset' it's called now.
    IBM and the OpenPOWER Foundation proudly (see comment #165) and completely removed optionality in Power ISA v3.0 (2015) for application portability reasons, requiring compliant cores to implement the full instruction set, thus making any less-than-server CPUs virtually impossible to implement. Unsurprisingly, to date there has been no other Power ISA v3.0/3.0B implementation than IBM's own POWER9 (btw, despite what's claimed on Wikipedia, Microwatt/Chiselwatt lack VSX/VMX, so cannot be v3.0/3.0B-compliant). And with the release of v3.0C (2020), IBM and the OpenPOWER Foundation acted as if they added something new and never before seen to the Power ISA. In reality, with the introduction of the compliancy subsets they just corrected their severe mistake of deprecating ISA v2's quite successful category concept.
    Overall, and as current developments like Libre-SOC are testimony of, it can only be good for the Power ecosystem that IBM and the OpenPOWER Foundation came to their senses and brought back the possibility to create smaller/embedded yet modern (i. e. ISA v3) Power cores without forcing to implement a ~1000 instructions behemoth, as well as allowed royalty-free use of the ISA as of v3.0C.

    > if it's true we will get ~1500 EUR Power10 boards early next year

    As I understand, that's meant to be complete systems, not just boards. But early next year? When was that said?
  • »05.10.23 - 19:44
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 536 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf schrieb:
    > if it's true we will get ~1500 EUR Power10 boards early next year

    As I understand, that's meant to be complete systems, not just boards. But early next year? When was that said?

    Ah, my mistake. At 31:00 he starts talking about future hardware and shows a list, telling that it's ranked in order of arrival.

    What will arrive early next year are the entry level rack servers. The Single Board Computers are hoped to be there by the end of next year. Workstations ought to arrive somewhere inbetween as the list is ranked but with no additional timeframe.
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »05.10.23 - 20:54
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> early next year? When was that said?

    > At 31:00 he starts talking about future hardware and
    > shows a list, telling that it's ranked in order of arrival.

    That's another one of the many nonsenses in this talk, as at 31:44 he tells that the last two items of the list are already available. How can this be if the items are listed in arrival order? I suspect the items are actually listed in performance order from highest to lowest, and he just muddled it up.
    Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility of the workstations indeed arriving between the server racks and the SBCs ;-)
  • »05.10.23 - 21:43
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2050 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf schrieb:
    Update:


    POWERπ got mentioned as ongoing project at EuroBSDCon 2023 by the Chair of the OpenPOWER Foundation's Technical Steering Committee:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj4Q-m_WEh0 (4:25 and 32:03)

    - open source (whatever that means)
    - dual-core
    - 500 EUR target price (up from 150 USD, see comment #213)





    With that price I would chose another name, without the "pi". More than a decade ago when I pursued such a plan for a while (a 5125 based mini board) I had doubts about the target price of 50 US$ -80 US$. 500US$ is just way off for the general audience.
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »05.10.23 - 22:16
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 536 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Thanks for your well researched update Andreas!

    Your 1st link states among other things Solid Silicon Corporation is a fabless silicon company [...]. So I wonder who is going to produce this S1 CPU and which node size and technology will be used?

    Supposedly it will be better than the 14 nm (FinFET) of the POWER 9, but to what extent? While I think the POWER 9 performance still is pretty decent it's idle power consumption is not so much. Not that we would care much as G5 MorphOS users. ;-)
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »20.10.23 - 22:39
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > who is going to produce this S1 CPU and which node size
    > and technology will be used?

    No definite answers on this yet but some more general info:

    "I asked Timothy Pearson at Raptor about the S1's specs, and he said it's a PCIe 5.0 DDR5 part running from the high 3GHz to low 4GHz clock range, with the exact frequency range to be determined. (OMI-based RAM not required!) The S1 is bi-endian, SMT-4 and will support at least two sockets with an 18-core option confirmed for certain and others to be evaluated."
    https://www.talospace.com/2023/10/the-next-raptor-openpower-systems-are.html
  • »21.10.23 - 20:13
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 536 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Interesting turn of events! All of a sudden POWER based chips are popping out all over the place. ;-) Or more like - are going to pop out next year.
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »24.11.23 - 16:17
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> Seems the CP1 has been renamed the HX-C1000.

    >> Like that one is essentially a Chinese POWER8, I guess
    >> the new HX-C2000 is essentially a Chinese POWER9.

    > Interesting turn of events! All of a sudden POWER based chips are popping
    > out all over the place. ;-) Or more like - are going to pop out next year.

    That's a little exaggerated, I'd say ;-)
    Btw, I have to correct my assumption that HX-C2000 is POWER9. It's still essentially POWER8 like the HX-C1000, but with PCIe upgraded from v3 to v5, memory upgraded from DDR4 (via Centaur) to DDR5 (directly connected) and other upgrades/changes to the core and "uncore":

    https://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/linuxppc-dev/2023-November/265870.html

    So in essence, it's a modified/improved POWER8 (but still no POWER9 or higher) combined with Power10-level on-chip controllers.
  • »08.12.23 - 11:41
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12021 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Update:

    > Libre-SOC project lead and Technical Director of RED Semiconductor

    There seems to be some severe falling-out between him and RED Semiconductor, rendering him being no longer involved with the company:

    "RED Semiconductor Ltd's Directors have [...] removed me from the Board of Directors despite being a majority shareholder, have withdrawn resources that severely compromise Libre-SOC's ability to fulfil its EU Grant funded work, and as a result violated the Libre-SOC Charter which *as a company* they have not agreed to because it was only through me in my dual capacity as Founder and former Director of RED, combined with Founder and Team Lead of Libre-SOC, that they had two-way access to Libre-SOC resources. with James Lewis (CEO) instructing employees to focus exclusively on RED Semiconductor interests, to the detriment of Libre-SOC research and grant funded work, it is abundantly clear that RED Semiconductor Ltd intends to use FOSDEM as a means and method of recruiting people who would otherwise be interested in working on FOSS and on Libre-SOC work, where for the past 5 years we have had extreme difficulty finding anyone, because the level of technical difficulty is so high that anyone with the right skillset can earn 5 to 8 times more money than is available from NLnet EU Grant funding."
    https://lists.libre-soc.org/pipermail/libre-soc-dev/2024-January/006005.html
  • »02.02.24 - 09:26
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 536 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Oh my... just the kind of news one would expect and is accustomed to in the Amiga scene. :-D
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »02.02.24 - 14:28
    Profile