Web Video Standardized: H.264 out, WebM in
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2700 from 2003/2/24
    "The WebM project - a VP8 video stream and a Vorbis audio stream wrapped in a Matroska container re-branded as a WebM container - launched by Google, openly supported by every major chip maker, is going to be the major codec for Google's Chrome web browser. Yes, Google is dropping H264 support from the Chrome web browser."

    http://www.osnews.com/story/24243/Google_To_Drop_H264_Support_from_Chrome

    Come, gather around, and watch how a standard is being formed... :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.01.11 - 15:45
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    Golem
    Posts: 766 from 2003/2/28
    From: Denmark
    How? Dictated by Google?
  • »12.01.11 - 16:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2700 from 2003/2/24
    Yes. :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.01.11 - 16:22
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Not good.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »12.01.11 - 18:53
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  • Fab
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    Fab
    Posts: 1331 from 2003/6/16
    As long as the codec is supported by ffmpeg, I can't care less (though H264 is currently a bit faster than VP8/WebM). :)
  • »12.01.11 - 20:33
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    Quote:

    Fab wrote:

    As long as the codec is supported by ffmpeg, I can't care less


    Fortunately. By the way, I've been told that the guy who invented the Matroska container was on drugs when he did so... Apparently, it's a crazy format, compared to the well known AVI standard.
  • »13.01.11 - 10:29
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    I have HD video I downloaded to my system to test play back that came in a Matroska container. Its works fine.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »13.01.11 - 22:08
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    koan
    Posts: 303 from 2005/11/21
    From: UK
    H.264 is a standard created by ISO (International Standards Organisation) MPEG and ITU (International Telecommunications Union). It was created by experts from various companies. Every aspect of it is documented although the specification is not free. Every feature is backed up by experiments and scientific proof that it adds value.

    WebM is not a standard. It was created by one company who sold the patents and source to Google who have now tweaked it and released it as free. This does not make it a standard.

    By dropping the support for H.264 from Chrome, Google is limiting our choice of formats we should use for video. But they still support Flash video which is H.264 in a Flash container so it's not that supporting H.264 is a problem...

    Unless someone can show evidence that WebM provides higher quality for lower bit rate or easier coding/decoding then this is just politicking/marketing. Actually, by "dropping support for H.264" but still supporting Flash video then it's a completely null argument because H.264 in it's own container would be more efficient.

    By the way, I was looking at adding support for Matroska to my own software but the overhead looks huge and the only place I could find that used Matroska was torrents; not good for commercial software.
  • »14.01.11 - 08:57
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Piru
    Posts: 505 from 2003/2/24
    From: finland, the l...
    Quote:

    It was created by one company who sold the patents and source to Google who have now tweaked it and released it as free. This does not make it a standard.

    Theora comes from the same source btw.
    Quote:

    Unless someone can show evidence that WebM provides higher quality for lower bit rate or easier coding/decoding then this is just politicking/marketing.

    WebM doesn't provide any compression. It's a container format based on matroska.

    VP8 is the video codec used. It has very similar compression ratio to H.264.
  • »14.01.11 - 09:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11462 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > WebM is not a standard. [...] This does not make it a standard.

    While not being a de jure standard it may become a de facto standard.

    http://videojs.com/2011/01/html5-video-statistics/

    > not good for commercial software.

    MKV support is offered by both commercial software and commercial hardware:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matroska#Software_support
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matroska#Hardware_support
  • »14.01.11 - 09:41
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  • Fab
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    Fab
    Posts: 1331 from 2003/6/16
    @koan

    Chrome uses FFMpeg to decode videos, anyway. So removing H264 support is entirely artificial, from a technical point of view. It's just a way to enforce google's VP8/WebM (and possibly avoid paying H264 fees).
  • »14.01.11 - 10:23
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    koan
    Posts: 303 from 2005/11/21
    From: UK
    I've looked at Theora and I would not like to have to implement it. It looks a bit of a mess - many design decisions were not justified, simply trying to avoid using something like H.264 to avoid patent issues. But at the end of the day there are only so many ways to encode video efficiently that we know of, inevitably they chose similar but ever-so-slightly different schemes. With their hands tied in this way it is difficult to make something better.

    WebM, http://www.webmproject.org/about/, specifies VP8 video and Vorbis audio so for all remarks concerning video quality WebM/VP8 are interchangeable. Iff VP8 quality is "as good as H.264" I would like to see scientific proof.

    Google aren't avoiding H.264 fees because, as I said, if they continue to support H.264 video in a Flash container they are just as liable. It's politicking because as Fab said, it makes no difference. I prefer to wait for HTML5 and see if W3C set baseline format support for the video tag; they never specified what formats were supported for the img tag so it could be that they do the same thing again.

    My point was that Matroska files are not supported by professional video editing tools.
  • »14.01.11 - 12:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2700 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Fab wrote:

    It's just a way to enforce google's VP8/WebM (and possibly avoid paying H264 fees).


    I think it has more to do with the latter!

    Anyway, I think standards in general are good, and particularly when they are free, non-proprietary and open. Everyone will benefit from a free, common ground to stand on.

    Of course everyone is totally free to try to build their own, proprietary solutions in parallel, but this WebM will be something every chip manufacturer supports, every gadget manufacturer supports, every sw manufacturer supports and every website using video.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »14.01.11 - 13:51
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2700 from 2003/2/24
    @koan

    AFAIK, Flash will now include WebM/VP8 support, and as you know, video isn't the only thing Flash is used for (in Chrome or any other web context).
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »14.01.11 - 14:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2700 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > WebM is not a standard. [...] This does not make it a standard.

    While not being a de jure standard it may become a de facto standard.


    Which is exactly what is about to happen. :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »14.01.11 - 14:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11462 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Which is exactly what is about to happen. :-)

    Yes, as indicated by the statistics I linked to :-)
  • »14.01.11 - 15:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2700 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Which is exactly what is about to happen. :-)

    Yes, as indicated by the statistics I linked to :-)


    Relax Andreas! You just lay back and relax for a year or two, and watch it happen!

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »14.01.11 - 16:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11462 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Relax Andreas!

    I'm very much relaxed already :-)

    > You just lay back and relax for a year or two, and watch it happen!

    I wasn't ironic. Did you even read that article and looked at the stats? I can see that WebM is on its way to become a de facto standard.
  • »14.01.11 - 16:33
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2700 from 2003/2/24
    OK then! :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »14.01.11 - 17:15
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11462 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > http://videojs.com/2011/01/html5-video-statistics/

    Some more statistics:

    http://www.html5test.com/videowars.png
  • »17.01.11 - 15:25
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