ARM for the future?
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2405 from 2003/2/24
    Here is a video showing a Genesi ARM computer using one of the amazing Pixel Qi screens that will be optional in future Genesi products:

    http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-year-ces-and-lots-more.html

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »14.01.11 - 14:43
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4219 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:


    scrAb_ wrote:
    Quote:

    "The idea that Microsoft is readying a version of Windows 8 for ARM is troubling."
    http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=606510

    ;-)


    Amazing!
    Ehi Jim, whenever and wherever you post something, remember.....Andrea-bot is "watching you"
    :-)


    I thought that was wolfbot, and not only is he watching...

    "Btw, are you Italian? Andrea is a female name here in Germany. Trust me, I'm as manly as a man can be ;-) "

    but the dude's got some seriously frightening recall.

    I remember that exchange - Hey Andreas in the US would be a man's name as well - I don't ever remember him forgetting to and the 's' at the end.

    [ Edited by Jim on 2011/1/14 15:03 ]
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »14.01.11 - 15:02
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  • Leo
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    Leo
    Posts: 387 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:


    meaning no backwards compatibility at all, which sounds like no fun.


    It does sound like fun :)

    Do you think the original AmigaOS started with software ? Still they had fun creating it... and people created the first pieces of software also did :)
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »14.01.11 - 23:46
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  • Cocoon
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    scrAb_
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  • »15.01.11 - 09:55
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    _DaNi_
    Posts: 154 from 2010/5/4
    From: Barcelona, Spain
    NVidia moves to ARM in a near future... :)

    http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/01/project-denver-processor-to-usher-in-new-era-of-computing/
  • »17.01.11 - 00:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9281 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> Microsoft's support can only broaden ARM support.

    >> "The idea that Microsoft is readying a version of Windows 8 for ARM is troubling."
    >> http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=606510
    >> ;-)

    > NVidia moves to ARM in a near future... :)
    > http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/01/project-denver-processor-to-usher-in-new-era-of-computing/

    1. I fail to see the connection of your posting to the one you replied to with it.
    2. nVidia's "Denver" announcement is what this thread has mostly been about. Obviously you didn't read it before replying.
    3. As I've told here in this thread nVidia has already moved to ARM years ago.
  • »17.01.11 - 01:30
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Yes that reference brings no new information to the table. What we've been discussing is what Denver may feature that hasn't implented in the ARM ISA yet.
    Up until now I haven't seen anything in Nvidia's ARM offerings to recommend them over other manufacturers like TI.

    I'm reasonably certain that our past speculation is on target, but unless Nvidia releases more information we have no proof.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »17.01.11 - 01:44
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    xyphoid
    Posts: 870 from 2008/7/11
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    So I broke my new toy (the coby kyros) well the usb snapped, so looking at http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7042921&CatId=6957
    since related to topic, how I'm not accused of a hijack ;-)
    I couldn't link through topic name directly, strange but it happen from time to time on owb. just got a red flash when tried to paste.
  • »17.01.11 - 02:09
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Quote:


    xyphoid wrote:
    So I broke my new toy (the coby kyros) well the usb snapped, so looking at http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7042921&CatId=6957
    since related to topic, how I'm not accused of a hijack ;-)
    I couldn't link through topic name directly, strange but it happen from time to time on owb. just got a red flash when tried to paste.


    Nice! And not too far off topic as it is Nvidia based (if only a Tegra 2). A little higher priced than I'd like though. For the same money I could buy an Efika MX Smartbook and get a full keyboard. The tablet would be more compact though.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »17.01.11 - 03:12
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Looking at AMD's first combined CPU/GPU products (which they call APUs) the AMD Embedded G-Series has left me considering how ARM and X86 design seems to be crossing paths at this point.

    http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/49282B_Embedded_Solutions_GSeries_Brief.pdf

    Nvidia's Denver might be 64 bit and in some ways resembles what AMD is considering. After consideration, while I am unsure about whether or not Denver will be 64 bit or not, but I'd think its fair to say that it isn't likely to clock above what current A9 are being tested at. It probably won't be a complete SOC like most current ARMs (since much of that functionality would be wasted in servers).
    And they may focus on two things that aren't common in ARM design. First a better interconnect system like AMD licensed Hyper Transport interconnections. And second GP GPU computing. After all Nvidia has been pushing this and in a servers the GPU part of an APUs would be largely wasted.

    As these two ISAs grow to resemble each other architecturally, its going to be interesting seeing how each fairs in competition with the other.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.01.11 - 22:15
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2405 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    _DaNi_ wrote:
    NVidia moves to ARM in a near future... :)

    http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/01/project-denver-processor-to-usher-in-new-era-of-computing/



    Thanks for the link. Some important statements from nVidia there IMHO.

    :-)

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma on 2011/1/21 10:08 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »21.01.11 - 09:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    I do not know much about the topic "ARM" ... but the fact that Microsoft is going to support it and that ARM is already wide spread, does that want to say that Intel is going to get some serious competition (and gets stabbed in the back by Microsoft ) ?
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »21.01.11 - 09:25
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4219 from 2009/1/28
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    Nvidia's Mike Rayfield:

    "As well as licensing Cortex A15, we also have an architectural license with ARM to produce an extremely high performance ARM CPU, which be combined with Nvidia GPUs for super-computing," he said, adding that the Maxwell generation of GPUs will be the first end-product using Project Denver.

    "This is a far greater resource investment for us than just licensing a design," he said.

    The Maxwell generation is expected to launch sometime in 2013, offering a "massive" increase in processing power over the previous Kepler generation.

    Two yeas away? My are they taling vaporware! - Jim
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.01.11 - 18:56
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2405 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Jim wrote:

    It probably won't be a complete SOC like most current ARMs (since much of that functionality would be wasted in servers).


    Oh I think there will be SoC's for sure! That's the future. Of course nothing is stopping them to make several *different versions* targeted at several different applications (like pad/netbook, desktop, server, "super computer" or whatever) with any needed controllers on chip, once they have completed their core development.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »21.01.11 - 19:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2405 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Oepabakkes wrote:
    I do not know much about the topic "ARM" ... but the fact that Microsoft is going to support it and that ARM is already wide spread, does that want to say that Intel is going to get some serious competition


    Yes! :-)

    nVidia: "Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture. For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture. The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.

    Denver provides a choice. System builders can now choose a high-performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large general register file. These features enable advanced compiler techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher performance and a more energy-efficient processor."


    Quote:

    (and gets stabbed in the back by Microsoft)?


    "Microsoft’s announcement that it is bringing Windows to ultra-low power processors like ARM-based CPUs provides the final ingredient needed to enable ARM-based PCs based on Denver. Along with software stacks based on Android, Symbian, and iOS, Windows for ultra-low power processors demonstrates the huge momentum behind low-power solutions that will ultimately propel the ARM architecture to dominance."

    I think Microsoft wants in on the ultra portable, low power segment that Apple iPad (and others) are in. I think they have lost patience with Intel not being able to support anything suitable.

    And who knows what technology future X-Box systems will use under the hood? ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »21.01.11 - 19:43
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Personally, it looks like AMD is gaining ground on Intel thanks to their ownership of ATI. AMD has demo'd two different families of APUs already (combined CPU/GPUs).

    ARM is at a disadvantage architecturally when compared to X86. Its a cruder processor and some of its features lead to significantly less dense code.
    But ARM is gaining ground constantly. However, if you were to compare current ARM offerings and processor like those I referenced earlier, X86 still has a performance edge.

    I don't see any clear winner here yet except the consumer. When there is competition, increased innovation occurs and prices are lower.

    [ Edited by Jim on 2011/1/21 20:40 ]
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.01.11 - 20:39
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Hey did you see the news about IBM working with ARM to create processors at the finest process yet?
    First it was Global Foundries demoing 28nm processes by make ARM processors. NOW IBM has created 14nm ARM processor.
    What disadvantages ARM may have, it looks like they're going to keep their low draw lead over the competition.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.01.11 - 20:49
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4219 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:


    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:


    Jim wrote:

    It probably won't be a complete SOC like most current ARMs (since much of that functionality would be wasted in servers).


    Oh I think there will be SoC's for sure! That's the future. Of course nothing is stopping them to make several *different versions* targeted at several different applications (like pad/netbook, desktop, server, "super computer" or whatever) with any needed controllers on chip, once they have completed their core development.


    The reason I don't think that Denver will be a complete Soc (or that at least the server Models won't be) is that the Southbridge functions built into a Soc (like disk i/o, usb, etc) do not need to be duplicated across a multiprocessor platform. Look at the AMD processors I referenced. They combine CPU and GPU functions and some traditional Northbridge functions into an APU but they still rely on an additional IC for support.
    This is closer to what I picture Denver looking like.
    "Magnetic was troubled by my avatars and 'satanic' references" - Jim Igou

    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.01.11 - 22:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9281 from 2003/5/22
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    > http://www.hpcwire.com/blogs/NVIDIA-ARMs-Itself-for-Heterogeneous-Computing-Future-113025584.html
    > "As part of this strategy, the company has obtained rights to develop its own
    > NVIDIA-designed high performance CPU cores using ARM's future processor
    > architecture. Presumably this will be based on a future 64-bit implementation
    > of the ARM ISA, given that 64-bit computing is the accepted standard outside
    > of the mobile space."

    From the same author, 6 days ago:

    "At this point, it's not clear if NVIDIA intends to use the A15 as the basis for its first CPU-GPU processors or wait for a full 64-bit capable ARM architecture, which at this point is still under wraps."
    http://www.hpcwire.com/features/ARM-Processors-Set-to-Challenge-x86-On-Its-Own-Turf-115153179.html?page=2

    Seems he's gotten confused over time ;-)
  • »08.02.11 - 16:26
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9281 from 2003/5/22
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    Update:

    > recent BlueGene system is built around 8192 "Power BQC" processors
    > at 1.6 GHz each, which I assume have PPC A2 cores (like PowerEN).

    Confirmation:

    "IBM's hardware people cleared up the mystery about the processor at the heart of the BlueGene/Q super, saying that it is [...] a 16-core Power A2 processor"
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/08/argonne_ibm_bluegene_q_super/

    More info:
    http://power.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IBM_March_29_Webinar_-_Dr._Luigi.pdf (pages 7 and 26)


    Edit: PDF link updated

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 18.09.2012 - 23:15 ]
  • »30.03.11 - 19:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9281 from 2003/5/22
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    Update:

    >> The speculation that ARM will be used as a basis for a design that
    >> interprets X86 code (similar to Transmeta)? No, I can't see that.

    > Thanks for addressing this speculation. I'm with you on that one. It's hard
    > to see that such a solution could make sense performance-wise. Even the
    > author of the article circulating that speculation agrees with us on that.

    News from that author regarding x86 compatibility of Denver:

    "T50/Tegra 5 is now known as Denver, but the x86 part has been dropped for legal reasons."
    http://semiaccurate.com/2011/04/06/nvidia-in-full-philosophical-retreat-for-tegra-3/
  • »10.05.11 - 01:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9281 from 2003/5/22
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    > Nvidia's Denver might be 64 bit [...]. [...] I am unsure
    > about whether or not Denver will be 64 bit or not

    CEO of nVidia on Denver two months ago:

    "To take the ARM processor, partner with them to develop a next-generation 64 bit processor to extend it so that all of computing can have the benefits of that instruction set architecture. It is backward-compatible with today’s ARM processors."
    http://venturebeat.com/2011/03/04/qa-nvidia-chief-explains-his-strategy-for-winning-in-mobile-computing/
  • »10.05.11 - 01:52
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2405 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    http://venturebeat.com/2011/03/04/qa-nvidia-chief-explains-his-strategy-for-winning-in-mobile-computing/


    Interesting link! So it will be 64-bit. And it is backward-compatible with today’s ARM processors.

    "ARM is now the only CPU in the world that will have deep penetration in the mobile devices, the PC, servers and supercomputers."

    ARM is the future! :-)

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma 12.05.2011 - 06:51 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.05.11 - 05:50
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Crumb
    Posts: 698 from 2003/2/24
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    "ARM is now the only CPU in the world that will have deep penetration in the mobile devices, the PC, servers and supercomputers."

    Propaganda. You could add PowerPC there too. At least there are more PCs, consoles, cars, servers and supercomputers using PowerPC than ARM.

    Most ARM cpus have poor performance per mhz compared to PowerPC or Intel cpus.
  • »12.05.11 - 11:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2405 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    You could add PowerPC there too.


    No, not really. ARM rules the mobile world, while Atom and others tries to scale the x86 downwards into this segment. PPC is nowhere to be seen.

    x86 rules the desktop and workstation segments, while ARM tries to scale upwards into these segments. PPC is nowhere to be seen.

    Quote:

    At least there are more PCs, consoles, cars, servers and supercomputers using PowerPC than ARM.


    PC's based on PPC are a thing of the past. Probably Consoles as well. Anyway, you are saying "currently" as a response to what was said about "future". ARM and nVidia is aiming to do an x86 killer, with a clear ambition to compete with x86 on desktop, server and supercomputer markets. Microsoft has joined in, which clearly adds weight to the effort.

    Despite this you want to equal PPC to ARM's future? Sure, feel free to call it propaganda until you see some real results (especially if you distrusts nVidia's competence in creating high performing designs, despite them being one of the leading entities in this field), but don't claim that PPC has a better course laid out for it, when all applications that's left for it is in various boring embedded gadgets and cars.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »12.05.11 - 12:45
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