No Trash Can in MorphOS ?!?
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    mihailod
    Posts: 170 from 2010/1/8
    I am curious why there is no Trash Can functionality in MorphOS default installation. Is this something that can be added as a plugin or customization?

    All modern OSes have it and Amiga, back in the day, even went a step further and, instead of a global Trash Can, it had a Trash Can on each volume (even on each floopy, if I rememeber correctly).

    Yes, I do see some Salvage tools are available but it would be maybe better if a real Trash Can feature was simply there ("better" = much easier for normal users to undelete accidentaly deleted file).

    Before filing this as a missing feature, I would like to hear reasoning and pros and cons behind such decision.

    P.S. And, of course, maybe I missed Trash Can completely! I could not see it on the desktop, and the right-click menus only had "Delete" after which the file is gone. So, even if it's there and I still missed it after several hours of usage of the OS that would be another issue then.
  • »11.01.10 - 23:55
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  • Moderator
    Golem
    Posts: 766 from 2003/2/28
    From: Denmark
    For SFS formatted volumes you have a hidden directory named ".recycled" where files are moved to when deleted. By default these are not accesible from Ambient, but you can add an icon to the directory for easier access.
  • »12.01.10 - 00:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10977 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    SFS provides for similar functionality. See

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1024&forum=9
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3557&forum=9
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5384&forum=9
  • »12.01.10 - 00:03
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    mihailod
    Posts: 170 from 2010/1/8
    OK, I see.

    I think the .recycled drawer then should be visible by default. Then you could just use drag and drop to recover the file (as opposed to going into CLI just for this). Is there any reason not to have it like this? I will file this as a bug later tonight.

    The fact that many people asked about it shows that it's not intuitive.
  • »12.01.10 - 00:43
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  • Fab
  • MorphOS Developer
    Fab
    Posts: 1331 from 2003/6/16
    Even if you chose to hide it, you can also press '/' in an ambient view and add .recycled to the root path to access it (or add an ambient bookmark location if wanted). But I'm mostly giving an alternative here. :)

    The easiest solution is of course to check "show recycled" when formatting the SFS volume.

    [ Edited by Fab on 2010/1/12 1:41 ]
  • »12.01.10 - 01:41
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1645 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    I like it more when it doesn't have icon, because it's fully automatic unlike on old Amiga. You don't have to empty it, it removes items there automatically when needed. So, in normal use you just don't have to care about it at all. And in rare situations when you have to restore something, you know it's there for backup, but it's not visible for everyone to tinker in normal use. Also the items there won't use the HD space, so it doesn't affect to available free space counters like on some other systems. I don't like at all when I have to be manually emptying trashcans on other systems.. and all the time thinking what went there and what I decide to delete completely... usually I just end up to use shift-del on Windows machines etc.

    In any case it isn't a bug. It's a feature on that particular filesystem and it's a lot better than trashcans on old Amigas :) And as said, there are options to show it and I'd add one option more: You can add path to it into your Ambient bookmarks.
  • »12.01.10 - 07:02
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    mihailod
    Posts: 170 from 2010/1/8
    Yeah, it's a philosophical issue, I know.

    Whether you are going to try to reeducate 99% of the potential users or whether you are going to do what's the least surprising for them and let the 1% of uber-users customize to the current situation. I am talking regular folks here used to other OSes who might be wanting potentially to switch to MorphOS and needed to be convinced to shell 150 euros...

    They are not going to dig forums or read instructions for such a trivial thing. They are not going to buy into any rationalization either. They are going to say "I cannot recover a deleted file" and give up. :-(
  • »12.01.10 - 07:25
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Jeckel
    Posts: 133 from 2007/3/11
    One point is that the ".recycled" directory is related to the filesystem (SFS). On others filesystems you cannot recover deleted files in that way (ie FAT32, ext2, ...) and for example if you use PFS3 the name of this hidden directory is ".deldir".

    Managing deleted file from the filesystem is a nice feature. And from this point of view, there no reason it should be visible as real directory: it is not a real directory.


    [ Edited by Jeckel on 2010/1/12 9:58 ]
  • »12.01.10 - 08:57
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    r-tea
    Posts: 291 from 2005/3/27
    From: Poland, Zdzies...
    I agree with mihailod. So called "Trashcan" should be showed up by default. It can became a nightmare for someone new in MOS World to bring back deleted files.
    It's much much easier for an advanced user (as we are) to get rid of unwanted icon, than discovering a hidden mysterious .recycled drawer for newbies.

    I remember my first impression of MOS 1.4.5. The icon "My MorphOS" was very annoying for me so I hide it in Prefs. If one liked it then simply left it.
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  • »12.01.10 - 11:44
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jcmarcos
    Posts: 1178 from 2003/3/13
    From: Pinto, Madrid ...
    In my opinion, trashcan is lame. People that really know what they are doing with their data don't need it. Or at least, I can't figure out a situation where it would be needed.
  • »12.01.10 - 12:54
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    DiskDoctor
    Posts: 306 from 2009/4/17
    From: Rzeszow, place...
    I don't think there is a need for thrashcan. One can always throw stuff to ramdisk :-) Also, no thrash on rm/rmdir linux command and people live with it.

    I say MorphOS or AmigaOS has to differ, just look at Vista or Win7 for the sake - all they did was they pirated MacOSX.

    Lame!!
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  • »12.01.10 - 17:24
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  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1645 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:


    mihailod wrote:
    Yeah, it's a philosophical issue, I know.

    Whether you are going to try to reeducate 99% of the potential users or whether you are going to do what's the least surprising for them and let the 1% of uber-users customize to the current situation. I am talking regular folks here used to other OSes who might be wanting potentially to switch to MorphOS and needed to be convinced to shell 150 euros...

    They are not going to dig forums or read instructions for such a trivial thing. They are not going to buy into any rationalization either. They are going to say "I cannot recover a deleted file" and give up. :-(


    Every new system needs some learning, otherwise there wouldn't be much point to try different systems :). You can't avoid these kind of situations on any system. I'm familiar with many kinds of systems, but when I finally played around with OSX on my Mac mini, I had many WTF situations which I had to google to get explained :). For example how to delete files without moving them to trashcan.. and I still can't remember the key combination for that.. it wasn't the easiest to remember :P

    But OK, some common ways could be adopted to get new users from other platforms attracted, but as MorphOS hasn't been ready for that until recently, all the details aren't there yet. Main focus has been with AmigaOS 3.x users earlier and they usually know these things already. In any case, there have been bigger issues to solve and build to make system more friendly to newcomers, I don't believe this trashcan issue for example would be any major issue deciding if you like the OS or not. But I guess it's good for developers to hear these kind of points too.

    BTW. something more about that .recycled dir. Probably the best use of it is that all modified and saved files by system or any other program end up there too, not just the files user deletes etc. If you mess up and save some wrong settings, you can copy working config files back from the .recycled. It also preserves different versions of the files. You can usually revert the config files from certain date or for example 5 saves ago etc.
  • »12.01.10 - 17:26
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1516 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    @DiskDoctor

    Quote:


    I say MorphOS or AmigaOS has to differ, just look at Vista or Win7 for the sake - all they did was they pirated MacOSX.



    As far as AmigaOS is concerned there has been Trashcan since Workbench 1.0. It is just only that on Amiga nobody ever used it because it wasnt practical with floppy based systems and that Workbench was never practical for file management. On AmigaOS everyone was (and still is) using separate file manager program to copy and delete files and almost nobody even noticed absence of Trashcan in MorphOS.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »12.01.10 - 18:06
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    mihailod
    Posts: 170 from 2010/1/8
    No problem, I am just trying to put off my developer/geek/compsci hat (which I wear a lot at my office) and approach MorphOS from a regular "newbie user" standpoint...

    Here is what I wrote on LinkedIn, maybe it will clarify my approach with MorphOS so far:

    - - - - -

    Which brings me to another question: is MorphOS an attempt to one day fully replace another mainstream OS or is it just another hurray in the shrinking Amiga community? The fact that it's not free makes me think it's the former and I will be happy if that is the case. But, if that is so, the number of people who actually switch to it (and not just use it as a nostalgic token) will be crucial for its survival and I just don't see it happening in large numbers right now (is there any statistics about downloads and # of people who paid the license fee?).

    Don't get me wrong, I cannot remember when I felt this enthusiastic about something non-mainstream, Amiga-related or not (without even trying it first! just based on what I have seen so far!) and I can't wait to try it myself but I seriously think lowering the license fee and covering more hardware would help tremendously. I know that's a catch 22: if you don't have enough revenue you lose motivation of improving the OS and then the project dies. It happened before. I am trying to look into this from the consumer attractiveness and the development team profitability perspective (as opposed to the fragile nostalgic enthusiast - nostalgic developer relation).

    Regarding X1000 and other hardware-related projects: I think making hardware (and making it profitable!) is on the order of magnitude harder than making just software. While I would probably try to somehow support those efforts as well, I think I am an outlier here and not many people would buy into it. You talk about "clusters of cores" and "FPGA" acronyms which most consumers these days don't even understand nor care about. What they do care about is "can I run my stuff on this so it does not get into way". Again, this is from the profitability and consumer perspective -- we Amiga fans are already sold but we are not enough to make these projects sustainable. I hope that there is still some hope for a real Amiga renaissance, it remains to be seen...

    - - - - -

    > In my opinion, trashcan is lame. People that really know what they
    > are doing with their data don't need it.
    > Or at least, I can't figure out a situation where it would be needed.

    > One can always throw stuff to ramdisk
    > Also, no thrash on rm/rmdir linux command and people live with it.

    Now this is just insulting elitism. While I am happy to be a part of the bunch who is talking like this (and, most of my time, I am!), It DOES NOT HELP THE SALES :-)

    Just trying to help...
  • »13.01.10 - 00:10
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    osco
    Posts: 680 from 2009/10/21
    From: Boston, USA
    Users that use negatives as in dont lame et al tend to be elite but in a reverse set..There are many on this Zone read, comprehend, and appreciate your time and efforts.
    Onward :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
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  • »13.01.10 - 00:36
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10977 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > is there any statistics about [...] # of people who paid
    > the license fee?

    Number of licences:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5875&forum=14&start=100#69534

    Some users have serveral licences though, so user number is lower.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6778&forum=3
  • »13.01.10 - 19:47
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Crumb
    Posts: 714 from 2003/2/24
    From: aGaS & CUAZ Al...
    I don't like Trashcan concept as it's mostly useless. SFS .recycled dir is a better idea for the reasons listed by JPV, but I never had to use it. Like JC Marcos says... the user is supposed to know what he`s doing.

    BTW, if you want to recover lost/deleted files you can use SFSDoctor, it's included with the OS.

    [ Edited by Crumb on 2010/1/13 21:40 ]
  • »13.01.10 - 20:38
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    osco
    Posts: 680 from 2009/10/21
    From: Boston, USA
    @ CrumbI
    don't like Trashcan concept as it's mostly useless. SFS .recycled dir is a better idea for the reasons listed by JPV, but I never had to use it. Like JC Marcos says... the user is supposed to know what he`s doing.
    Too many negatives...

    YOUR Redemption
    BTW, if you want to recover lost/deleted files you can use SFSDoctor, it's included with the OS. :bloons:
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  • »14.01.10 - 05:20
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Jambalah
    Posts: 807 from 2008/3/30
    From: Roma, Italy
    Global Trash by Oliver Blumert (on Aminet) is really cool and complete for those who want a trashcan on Ambient.
    It works ok though it has a little issue (I guess on MorphOS): when you open prefs you can configure everything with no problem but after the window prefs is closed you can open it anymore, unless you reboot.
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  • »14.01.10 - 13:07
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 1 from 2015/7/28
    Is a simple way to get the trash folder visible on the drive of your choice:

    1.) download a PNG picture whatever you want
    2.) copy this PNG into the root of DH0/DH1/DH2 etc
    3.) open CLI
    4.) type following command (on each drive you have...)
    "rename <Filename>.png .recycled.info"
    5.) now you have an icon for your trash folder

    To place it on your desktop create a new panel, set transparency to 1 and then add the icon of your trash to this panel. thats all
  • »28.07.15 - 12:41
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Tom01
    Posts: 165 from 2009/9/20
    You can copy the Icon with Ambient, click All/Files, rmb/Information on the .recycled dir and drag & drop.
    No need to use the Shell.

    [ Edited by Tom01 28.07.2015 - 16:25 ]
  • »28.07.15 - 16:24
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    In_Correct
    Posts: 243 from 2012/10/14
    From: DFW, TX, USA
    I never noticed it until I read this topic, but I think there should be an icon on the desktop relating to deleted items, similar to Trash or Recycle Bin. The explanation that it is not necessary because of the SFS is only confusing to me. The only conclusion I can guess, is that the SFS is a much more improved version of a Recycle Bin, but I do not understand why a Recycle Bin icon and folder can't be a feature of the SFS Deleted Hidden Subfolder or whatever it's called.

    I am now going to share my experience with Windows and how it parallels with MorphOS. Windows is very slow Operating System. Every necessary feature that Microsoft adds to Windows, they add 14 other unnecessary features. I spend about two weeks figuring out how to undo the new unnecessary and very slow bloatware features. Undoing things such as Start Screen, Metro Apps, and the setting Metro Apps as the default Apps is also annoying, Edge Swipes, Hot Corners, Charms Bar, ... in addition to setting my recommended preference of "Use Windows For Best Performance" setting, and the High Contrast Setting ... I do not like needing to customize it just to make it usable.

    Morphos is both slightly similar and slightly different. While every feature is turned ON by default with Windows, every feature is turned OFF by default with MorphOS! Why? Because Amiga Users have no use for these features?! Will adding such features risk decreasing MorphOS performance? So, now I have to customize MorphOS which involves complicated procedures similar to the complicated procedure of purging Metro Apps from Windows.

    I do not like the solution of moving files to Ram Disk (What is a RAM Disk?) I like the solution of SFS Doctor, Global application available for download, and the preference settings.

    Is there a knowledge base included with MorphOS? You will need one. Also, you simply must write a Knowledge Base article perhaps in the MorphOS Wiki also, offering solutions for the Trash Icon.

    Quickly dismissing the requested feature because Amiga users and programmers have no use for the feature is going to detract potential new users looking to try a new OS.


    [ Edited by In_Correct 29.07.2015 - 23:08 ]
    :-) I Support Quark Microkernel. :-D
  • »30.07.15 - 03:08
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    In_Correct
    Posts: 243 from 2012/10/14
    From: DFW, TX, USA
    Quote:

    Nostradamus wrote:
    Is a simple way to get the trash folder visible on the drive of your choice:

    1.) download a PNG picture whatever you want
    2.) copy this PNG into the root of DH0/DH1/DH2 etc
    3.) open CLI
    4.) type following command (on each drive you have...)
    "rename <Filename>.png .recycled.info"
    5.) now you have an icon for your trash folder

    To place it on your desktop create a new panel, set transparency to 1 and then add the icon of your trash to this panel. thats all


    :-D Welcome, New Person! :-D

    [ Edited by In_Correct 29.07.2015 - 20:10 ]
    :-) I Support Quark Microkernel. :-D
  • »30.07.15 - 03:09
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    In_Correct
    Posts: 243 from 2012/10/14
    From: DFW, TX, USA
    duplicate post.

    [ Edited by In_Correct 29.07.2015 - 23:07 ]
    :-) I Support Quark Microkernel. :-D
  • »30.07.15 - 06:06
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    MorphDelf
    Posts: 273 from 2004/2/20
    From: Oslo, Norway
    Quote:

    Tom01 wrote:
    You can copy the Icon with Ambient, click All/Files, rmb/Information on the .recycled dir and drag & drop.
    No need to use the Shell.


    The dir itself is not visible in Ambient just like that. Even with All Files turned on. I can enter the .recycled dir with / in my Ambient window, but .recycled isnt showing even when All Files is checked. However, after have typed .recycled the dir stays on the top of the Ambient window.

    Is there a SFS setting somewhere? Because I dont see it in SFS prefs?

    Michal
  • »30.07.15 - 07:59
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