Genesi... How about making new G4 cpu cards for PegasosII?
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    MorphDelf
    Posts: 273 from 2004/2/20
    From: Oslo, Norway
    Today I wanted to watch something in HD format. My MorphOS said yes and I downloaded it with OWB :) But then when MorphOS wanted to run it, it started up but got tired on its way up the loooong hill...

    Is there any possibility to see 1.33GHz, 1.5GHz or 2GHz CPU cards made for PegasosII? Atleast so that MorphOS can dance the bananadance again and be happy?

    These can be RoHS compliant etc? Sold as parts or addon or turbo cards for PegasosII.

    I wish that Genesi saw the potential in MorphOS 2.2 now ...


    And I wish you a happy weekend! :)
  • »20.02.09 - 15:57
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    xyphoid
    Posts: 870 from 2008/7/11
    From: Delaware, USA
    This was addressed before and the answer was no (for many reasons)
    BTW. it would be cheaper I think to just get the macmini for the soon to be released unofficially reported potential port. That presents the fastest g4 readily available (within reason).
  • »20.02.09 - 16:25
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Neko
    Posts: 301 from 2003/2/24
    From: Genesi
    There's no such thing as a G4 PowerPC CPU that goes past 1.5GHz.

    So that idea is out of the door already. No, "Mac overclocker cards" are not a decent reference for this, they're exactly that. Ridiculously overclocked. We wouldn't sell you something that would die in 3 years or require a cooling system the size of a cinderblock.

    If we made cards, yes they would be RoHS compliant, but the low number of users wanting them would mean they would cost as much as the Pegasos did when you bought it, for all of a 30% increase in CPU speed and not much else.
    Matt Sealey, Genesi USA, Inc.
    Developer Relations
    Product Development Analyst
  • »20.02.09 - 17:32
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4818 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Actually, there is the 1.7GHz Freescale 7448 (specifically part #KMC7448VU1700LD for an Rohs version).
    But Matt's technically correct as this isn't a G4. Rather, it's a drop-in pin for pin compatible chip. Or as Freescale puts it "The e600 core is virtually identical to the G4 core, but with enhancements to L2 cache and AltiVec implementation, and it is manufactured in 90nm technology. Software written for the MPC7447 and MPC7447A will run seamlessly on the MPC7448. MPC7448 can be a pin-for-pin compatible drop-in replacement for MPC7447A".
    So, with a larger cache, improved graphics related instructions, Rohs compatibility, and the ability to directly replace a G4 this would be faster than a 1.5 GHz G4 (or any of the Peg2 processors).

    [ Edited by Jim on 2009/2/21 0:58 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.02.09 - 23:01
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10376 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Is there any possibility to see 1.33GHz, 1.5GHz or 2GHz CPU cards
    > made for PegasosII?

    There were some made with 1.4 GHz MPC7447A for the "Free Developer Workstation Program":

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=28068&forum=33&start=220#478498
    http://www.genesi-usa.com/press/2005/9/7/
    https://morph.zone/modules/news/article.php?storyid=909
    http://web.archive.org/web/20051027011107/http://www.pegasosppc.com/freeworkstation.php
    http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2005-12-00004-EN.html

    > Sold as parts or addon or turbo cards for PegasosII.

    The parts are orderable from Freescale or their distributors. And how would "addon" and "turbo cards" differ? And how would they differ from a CPU card like the existing G3/G4 ones?
  • »21.02.09 - 03:33
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10376 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > There's no such thing as a G4 PowerPC CPU that goes past 1.5GHz.
    > So that idea is out of the door already.

    Even if that was true (which it is not), it would only answer the "2GHz" part of MorphDelf's question for "1.33GHz, 1.5GHz or 2GHz CPU cards".

    > No, "Mac overclocker cards" are not a decent reference for this

    And what about Apple PowerBooks G4 with official 1.67 GHz? Or simpler: What about Freescale's listing of "G4"s above 1.5 GHz? All made up nonsense?

    > they're exactly that. Ridiculously overclocked.

    You're right for the 1.8 GHz (up to 2.0 GHz, I believe) G4 upgrades.

    Edit:
    And interesting regarding Genesi's own opinion about the existence of G4s above 1.5 GHz (from the Wayback Machine link above):

    "Freescale 1.7GHz upgrade program will be available later for an additional $49.95."

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf on 2009/2/21 7:22 ]
  • »21.02.09 - 03:55
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4818 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Wow! Hey Matt, Andreas manages to counter with information from Genesi!
    That is an impressive command of the facts.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.02.09 - 04:29
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    clr666
    Posts: 83 from 2008/7/8
    From: Russia
    CPU card producing not so expensive as whole motherboard.
    Why not? I sure, many users want it at least for "HD ready" status of their Pegasos systems.
    Maybe HW developers, like bPlan, DCE, Eyetech, noname-china-farm wants some money? :)
    _______________
    wintel free
  • »21.02.09 - 09:29
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    MorphDelf
    Posts: 273 from 2004/2/20
    From: Oslo, Norway
    I dont know about you. But it seems like Neko is a person holding
    Genesi back. Maybe even the person that gives Genesi a more negative
    impression than Bill Buck.

    Many things can be said about Bill Buck, but Neko is a person destroying Genesis reputation by puttin utter nonsense. Why are you doing this Neko? You remind me of Bill McEwen type just type something and dont't really check your facts. Like a politician in the wrong party.

    Isn't Genesi supposed to help out Amiga and MorphOS. Instead I find Neko always be negative to anything Amiga or MorphOS realated thing.

    I hope that Genesi or bPlan creates a better CPU card for PegasosII as showing your support! But do you really support at all?
  • »21.02.09 - 10:27
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1131 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ MorphDelf

    Quote:

    Why are you doing this Neko? You remind me of Bill McEwen type just type something and dont't really check your facts.


    There is no need for mudslinging.


    Quote:

    Isn't Genesi supposed to help out Amiga and MorphOS.


    Genesi is a *for-profit* organization, not a charity founded to support "Amiga" or MorphOS at any cost.

    There are people whose livelihood depends on Genesi's ability to keep its revenue and expenses in balance. Developing and manufacturing hardware without any prospect for making a profit does not help with this.


    Quote:

    I hope that Genesi or bPlan creates a better CPU card for PegasosII as showing your support! But do you really support at all?


    You are free to hope anything you like. But please do not get angy when somebody tells you that what you hope for is unlikely to happen for whatever reason.

    [ Edited by ASiegel on 2009/2/21 14:05 ]
  • »21.02.09 - 10:53
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  • Moderator
    hooligan
    Posts: 1935 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Neko is not holding Genesi back. In fact he is absolutely correct. No-one in their right mind would develope an expensive product for a hundred people.

    "Isn't Genesi supposed to help out Amiga and MorphOS"

    Are you serious of fking with us? :)
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »21.02.09 - 10:58
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1188 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    Quote:

    Many things can be said about Bill Buck, but Neko is a person destroying Genesis reputation by puttin utter nonsense. Why are you doing this Neko? You remind me of Bill McEwen type just type something and dont't really check your facts. Like a politician in the wrong party. Isn't Genesi supposed to help out Amiga and MorphOS. Instead I find Neko always be negative to anything Amiga or MorphOS realated thing.


    You obviously have no idea about what you're talking about.

    Neko is lucid, you're a dreamer.
  • »21.02.09 - 13:34
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    Simon
    Posts: 809 from 2008/7/6
    From: Antwerp, Belgium
    Altough I do find Neko's comments most of the times kind of negative ... they are also most of the times reality.
    Proud member of the Belgian Amiga Club since 2003

  • »21.02.09 - 13:55
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1889 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:


    SoundSquare wrote:
    Quote:

    Many things can be said about Bill Buck, but Neko is a person destroying Genesis reputation by puttin utter nonsense. Why are you doing this Neko? You remind me of Bill McEwen type just type something and dont't really check your facts. Like a politician in the wrong party. Isn't Genesi supposed to help out Amiga and MorphOS. Instead I find Neko always be negative to anything Amiga or MorphOS realated thing.


    You obviously have no idea about what you're talking about.

    Neko is lucid, you're a dreamer.


    I second that. Plus, Neko relly likes the 8610 and I am sure, that if there are any optios to build a 8610 based device, Neko will beoneof the very first to add his knowledge and enthusiasm to make it happen.
    but unfortunately there are some commercial constraints.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »21.02.09 - 13:58
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4818 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    I am not sure why this post became so personal. Perhaps I should apologize again, this time forr my comments directed at Bill McEwen.
    As to the idea of making about 100 processor cards for the PegII, yes you're not going to make any real profit. They would cost more than if they were produced in higher numbers and it would be more of a labor of love (or a cooperative community development).
    The biggest thing preventing anyone outside of bplan from manufacturing these cards is the lack of documentation. As I've mentioned in previous posts, while Genesi posted a schematic of the PegII motherboard, the schematics don't include the details of the processor cards. Without that information, designing a new (faster) processor card for the PegII would be much more difficult.
    On the idea of an 8610 motherboard, I still prefer the MPC8640. The 8640 has a comparable max speed (1250MHz) and a larger cache. Further, as there is a evaluation platform (motherboard from Freescale) for the MPC8641 that works with the 8640, we have a ready example on hand for development. I know Genesi still has a few of these boards (I think Matt may have one) left over from the period when they were contemplating an 8641 motherboard.
    The biggest advantage of the 8640 is that it costs less than the 8641 (and many other PPC processors).
    A new motherboard might have a larger market than a run of upgrade cards for a motherboard that's no longer in production. Plus, since the design could incorporate PCI-e slots, we would have access to newer expansion cards.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.02.09 - 19:53
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Matt_H
    Posts: 30 from 2009/2/21
    From: Boston, MA, Un...
    Hi, all. A bunch of you might know me from Amiga.org, but I felt compelled to register here to chime in on this thread.

    I had pretty much just received my Pegasos at the time interest in new cards was first being examined - must have been two and a half years ago. At the time, I wasn't interested.

    Now, however, I might be. While 1GHz was a respectable and capable speed not long ago, it's starting to show its age, especially on the Linux side. Others might think so too. And if MorphOS users end up swapping their Pegs for Mac Minis, the OS4 users who are likely to acquire the Pegs might be interested in an upgrade - a market segment that wasn't available last time around.

    Bottom line, another formal "Hey, checking interest in Pegasos CPU cards with specs x and price y. Want one?" kind of announcement might be worth doing.
  • »21.02.09 - 20:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    magnetic
    Posts: 2129 from 2003/3/1
    From: Los Angeles
    well firstly even with a poll that doesnt mean these people will PAY for an upgrade. I think the best bet here is not to petition "Genesi" but "Bplan" themselves. If they see value they may do a small run not as Genesi but as "Bplan" who knows? Maybe if all you guys show up in Germany with cashier's checks they will do it :P

    As far as Neko he apparently has been some kind of asset for Genesi but having him as a company spokesperson on boards and giving him the title of "manager developer relations" (especially when he got this illustrious title NONE of the Morphos Devs were talking to him,and as a matter of fact he was BANNED from morphos IRC channels!) is quite ironic.



    :xxx:
    Pegasos 2 Rev 2B3 w/ Freescale 7447 "G4" @ 1ghz / 1gb Nanya Ram
    Quad Boot: MorphOS 2.7 | Amiga OS4.1 U4 | Ubuntu PPC GNU/Linux | OS X 10.4
  • »21.02.09 - 23:04
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    koan
    Posts: 303 from 2005/11/21
    From: UK
    Would the old processor card design be viable, even with a drop in pin for pin replacement processor ? Would there have to be a redesign for Pb free solder ?

    I suppose that the design is actually fairly simple, it's the price of the CPU that is the expensive thing. What kind of availability is there ?

    [ Edited by koan on 2009/2/22 13:27 ]
  • »22.02.09 - 04:26
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    XzIt
    Posts: 250 from 2005/1/19
    From: Norway
    Been waiting for the duel cards to come out :D

    Video here dated 5.19-2002: http://aminet.net/pix/mpg/Pegasos.mpg

    X 8-)
  • »22.02.09 - 11:14
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4818 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Interesting video! G3 thru G5 processors and dual processors? I didn't know the Pegasos design supported the last two options.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.02.09 - 22:56
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2555 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:


    magnetic wrote:
    well firstly even with a poll that doesnt mean these people will PAY for an upgrade. I think the best bet here is not to petition "Genesi" but "Bplan" themselves. If they see value they may do a small run not as Genesi but as "Bplan" who knows? Maybe if all you guys show up in Germany with cashier's checks they will do it :P


    I have not followed this entire thread, or even other similar threads about open sourcing the Peg2 design, so I do not know if it is physically possible to make a new production run of Peg2's, or slightly improved Peg2's, but it seems obvious to me that:

    1. with the newly released AmigaOS4.x for the Peg2 and;

    2. the existing MorphOS user base, some that already have Peg2's, but would like an upgraded CPU card, and

    3. other existing MorphOS users with Peg1's and Efika's that might be interested in getting a Peg2, specially if it were upgraded to a faster CPU w/other minor enhancements to the original design if possible, which would hopefully make it faster and more expandable than getting a G4 MacMini,

    could possibly create enough potential buyers to make it feasible for bPlan to consider making a small production run of Peg2's and/or upgraded Peg2 CPU cards.

    MorphOS for the MacMini is a good thing for the community IMHO, but it is not really a great replacement for the Peg2 or a great flagship for running MorphOS. Since there does not seem to be any full desktop replacement to run MorphOS on, none that have been announced yet anyway, having a new run of the best computers to run MorphOS on that just happen to also be able to run AmigaOS4.x would be a good thing to possibly increase MorphOS users and license sales, which will help encourage more future MorphOS development. The only other alternative that exists today that I know of is for some dealer, or group buy to fund the minimum 300 orders for a production run of expanded EFIKA's with 512mb of RAM, which I guess would include paying for the modification to the OF to allow MorphOS to recognize the extra RAM, and that is not an ideal proposal either. It would be nice to have new hardware to run MorphOS on available that is better than the currently available 128mb RAM EFIKA's, but I guess things could be much worse.

    Quote:

    As far as Neko he apparently has been some kind of asset for Genesi but having him as a company spokesperson on boards and giving him the title of "manager developer relations" (especially when he got this illustrious title NONE of the Morphos Devs were talking to him,and as a matter of fact he was BANNED from morphos IRC channels!) is quite ironic.

    :xxx:


    I don't really want to get into this discussion (again), but I cannot disagree with the above statement.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »24.02.09 - 03:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10376 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I had pretty much just received my Pegasos at the time interest in
    > new cards was first being examined - must have been two and a half
    > years ago.

    The *real* first for the Pegasos II was 5 years ago (MPC7447A):

    https://morph.zone/modules/news/article.php?storyid=369
    http://web.archive.org/web/20050208185222/www.genesi.lu/press.php?date=20040225

    2nd "first" was 2 months later (PPC750GX):

    https://morph.zone/modules/news/article.php?storyid=440
    http://www.genesi-usa.com/press/2004/4/23/

    3rd "first" was 4 years ago (MPC7447A):

    http://www.morphos-news.de/index.php?lg=en&nid=995&si=1

    4th "first" was 3.5 years ago (MPC7448):

    https://morph.zone/modules/news/article.php?storyid=880
    http://www.pegasos.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=671

    5th "first" one month later was the "Free Developer Workstation Program" where 1.4 GHz MPC7447A prototype cards were indeed delivered to some and 1.7 GHz (MPC7448?) cards announced.
    I already provided an extensive amount of links covering that one before in this thread.

    This 5th "first" and at the same time last attempt got cancelled nearly 3 years ago:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=4498&start=35


    Should there have been attempts/announcements I'm not aware of right now, please add as you like.
  • »24.02.09 - 06:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10376 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > G3 thru G5 processors and dual processors? I didn't know the
    > Pegasos design supported the last two options.

    Regarding "G5 processors":
    At first you have to take into account that this video was shot 5 months *before* IBM even announced the PPC970, so "G5" probably refers to Motorola's much fabled "G5" (MPC7500) instead. As no definite details whatsoever were ever known about this anticipated Motorola chip, claims of G5 support in Pegasos (and thus by Articia S) must be considered pure bollocks. And of course the Articia S does also not support the PPC970, nor does the Discovery II of the Pegasos II.

    Regarding "dual processors":
    Although I'm very much in doubt considering the technical problems bplan/Thendic France/Genesi faced in employing even just a single G4, the Articia S (as used in the Pegasos I which this video refers to) may be capable of supporting dual G3 or G4. At least Hyperion have a dual MPC7410 card from MAI Logic for Articia S based Teron/AmigaOne; the card was never put to test though. The Discovery II of the Pegasos II however explicitly supports SMP in both 60x and MPX modes, so no problem there with dual G3 or G4.
    The Pegasos I (and later also II) was advertised as being dual CPU capable right from the start in year 2000.
  • »24.02.09 - 07:42
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    MarK
    Posts: 641 from 2004/1/25
    From: Prague, The Cz...
    as the pegasos2 is open... where is the cpu card schematics?

    bye, MarK.
  • »24.02.09 - 11:03
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