New here with a development question...
  • Just looking around
    soapdog
    Posts: 2 from 2005/12/3
    Hi Folks,

    it's my first post here, some that are also members of aw.net might regonize me for I'll post the same question here that I asked there. I am a software developer and like small operating systems where you can make some difference, I always wanted to have an amiga machine (or amiga experience machine) but never owned one.

    Since I am getting more serious with my developments, I decided to pursuit a deeper research of the AmigaOS/MorphOS systems from a developer standpoint. The guys at AW.Net told me many things about being a developer on their platform, I came here to hear from MorphOS users about being a MOS developer. I'd be very glad if people could spare some lines to tell me more about MorphOS.

    I'd like to know what languages are available or if we're locked in C/C++ environment? How is GUI creation done in MOS and how well the libs behave? Is MorphOS a good system for shareware developers whose main focus is network applications? Is it fun to code for MOS or it's a nightmare (I coded some apps for Newton and for PocketPCs, one is a nightmare the other is very fun from a coding standpoint...)

    Also there's much FUD regarding MOS current situation, without starting a flamefest, can someone summarize things for me? I am new here and I'd like to see the big picture...

    Well, thanks in advance for the help
    Andre
  • »03.12.05 - 06:20
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Krashan
    Posts: 1107 from 2003/6/11
    From: Białystok...
    Hello soapdog

    what languages are available or if we're locked in C/C++ environment?

    No. C/C++ is of course the most popular one, but a number of other languages have been ported (Python, Lua, Perl to name a few). There is also Amiga E (a general purpose language) and ARexx (targeted at srcipting and inter-application communication). If you want to search for some language try files section on http://morphos-news.de and also Aminet (http://main.aminet.net) may be worth to try.

    How is GUI creation done in MOS and how well the libs behave?

    MorphOS has MUI (Magic User Interface) built-in. MUI is object-oriented GUI system. There is no builder yet, but due to dynamic layout creating GUIs by hand is not difficult. MUI has some rare caveats but it is very stable and straightforward in general.

    Is MorphOS a good system for shareware developers whose main focus is network applications?

    I think so. We have BSD sockets here, so network programming is similar to other systems.

    Is it fun to code for MOS or it's a nightmare

    Difficult to say. It is fun for me, but I used to program for Amiga-like systems since 1997. It can be sometimes a nightmare (for example no source-level debugger).

    can someone summarize things for me?

    MOS Team was paid by Genesi until end of 2003, then Genesi decided to stop putting big money in the project. Now it is hobbyist OS with Genesi producing hardware able to run MOS (it can also run on old Amigas with PPC accelerators) and providing some non-financial support.
  • »03.12.05 - 06:39
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  • Moderator
    Senex
    Posts: 498 from 2003/2/17
    From: Hannover / Ger...
    Regarding languages, there's also FreePascal, as you probably have read already here in the forum. As mentioned in the corresponding thread, v2.0.2 is about to be released, which will provide some more support for Amiga/MorphOS-specific stuff. Regarding the current FP functionality, e.g. Pixel 32 is written in FP and thus also available for MorphOS.
  • »03.12.05 - 07:21
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    You might check out Hollywood by Airsoft. It comes froma presentation maker background but has programming language-like qualities and supports all the Amiga-like OSs, I believe.
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »03.12.05 - 07:52
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Robin
    Posts: 741 from 2003/2/24
    Welcome here :-)

    Take a look at the bounties section ... guess that gives
    a nice idea what a good shareware app can earn if it fills
    a gap ...

    All other points are already answered :-D
  • »03.12.05 - 08:49
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    zacman
    Posts: 86 from 2003/2/26
    Joining MorphOS Developer Connection is also a good idea as you can get the latest SDK there and there's a forum to discuss any developing-related topics too.
  • »03.12.05 - 10:56
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1193 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    I'd like to know what languages are available or if we're locked in C/C++ environment?

    C and C++ seem to be the "prefered languages", and that's what most example codes you can find is. But then again, I guess it's the same on most platforms.

    Quote:

    How is GUI creation done in MOS and how well the libs behave?

    I don't have much experience with MUI coding (except with rxmui which lets you code MUI interfaces in arexx) but the nice thing about MUI GUIs is that, they're "automatically" very customizable by the user (colors, button styles, borders, fonts etc.)

    Quote:

    Is MorphOS a good system for shareware developers whose main focus is network applications?

    I'm currently developing a multiplatform 3D-accelerated game with network play. So far I've been using SDL for just about everything without problems.

    Quote:

    Is it fun to code for MOS or it's a nightmare

    Obviously it depends on many things... If you're not familiar with something, it might feel very "nightmarish"

    With the help of powersdl and tinygl coding can be the same, no matter which platform you use (and you can also compile the same code for many platforms)

    When it comes to the actual coding, MOS SDK comes with MorphEd. which is quite nice text editor with syntax highlighting, macros and other useful features (for coding, at least). Debugging is something that could be better, but real coders don't write bugs, right? :-)
  • »03.12.05 - 13:35
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  • Moderator
    hooligan
    Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Quote:

    Also there's much FUD regarding MOS current situation, without starting a flamefest, can someone summarize things for me? I am new here and I'd like to see the big picture...


    There were some disputes concerning unpaid wages and it resulted mos.net. There has been some misunderstandings regarding that site so don't take it all as the ultimate truth. But yes, in a nutshell, Genesi as a new company had problems in paying some wages and it resulted a rather nasty mudslinging between the company and the ex-workers.. which resulted the hate-site. Anyones guess who is right and who is wrong. Maybe courtrooms or time will tell.

    Anyway, welcome to Morphzone. I am sure you will find the site filled with just as helpful people as AW.net has. You will notice its a bit more liberal here.. there are annoying quirks in MorphOS and we're not afraid to talk about them ;-)

    Have fun.. hopefully you will find answers to your questions.
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »03.12.05 - 14:19
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Bladerunner
    Posts: 418 from 2004/2/19
    Not beein a developer myself, I try to comment on that paragraph:

    Quote:

    Also there's much FUD regarding MOS current situation, without starting a flamefest, can someone summarize things for me? I am new here and I'd like to see the big picture...


    I do that afair, so some dates might be incorrect.

    In 1999/2000 MorphOS Development was introduced to the public. There where earlier Plans to make an Amigalike PPC Native OS, but for various reasons they never happend. Showing MorphOS to the public was imho also a result of Amiga Incs Plans to completly drop plans for a new Amiga OS Version, but going AmigaDE instead. (It was introduced as the "new" Amiga OS, but several People didn`t like the way it should have been done, and also many doubt it can be done with DE which was basicly just a third party product with small extensions)

    The Version 0.4 which was available for the public was the first native Amiga PPC OS. Although it lacked of course many things and even required a basic Amiga OS 3.1 Installation, it allready had an 68k Emulator, native GFX through Cybergraphx native Gui Toolkit (MUI) and so on.

    Unfortunatelly in Amiga World, we had earlier "Camp Wars" so it was foreseeable that this development, which could have resulted in a great opportunity for all Amigians out there if only had all involved worked together, was torpeded later on. Some people called it the "laire OS" (the nick of the main developer Ralph Schmidt) and assumed it can only be full of bugs and not very amigalike.
    At Amiga Inc it become clear at one point, that DE will never be a full Operating System and one has to assume they get somewhat worried about the plans of a native Amiga OS reicarnation. There where some talks behind the scenes on which I won`t comment, however in 2001 or so (remember, I am to lazy to search the exact dates, so forgive me if I mixed them) the Zico specs where introduced and somewhat later a german based company Haage und Partner should have done a native Amiga OS 4.0 Version. Imho (and just imho!) this was done to bring people in a wait mode (better get the real thing instead of a clone), it became clear later on, that actually not a single code was written for a so called native Amiga OS 4.0 In the same year, 2001 the Pegasos runnig a more advanced Version (0.8 iirc) was shown to the public on Cologne Amiga fair. I was there myself and the bplan showcase (the company which created the pegasos) was *very* crowded, people where amazed about the speed of the native running Amiga OS. At the End of 2001 Thendic France, lead by Bill Buck and Rachel Velasco stepped in and started to finance the Pegasos/MorphOS Project.

    In 2002 Eyetech introduced the "new" AmigaOne, after their earlier plans for an addon card for the A1200 line failed misserably. This time they licensed a desing from Mai, those company which made the Articia PPC Northbrdge.

    However, this Northbridge which also was used in the first generation of Pegasos` had some flaws resulting in data corruption etc. Those flaws where also the reason why the Pegs still wheren`t available, bplan hoped to fix those issues in corporation with Mai. However, Eyetech desided to bring out the AmigaONE SE, just running Linux, no Amiga OS. However, OS 4.0 development was now taken by Hyperion, a company which was formed to bring Ports of famous games using the Amiga PPC accelerator Cards.

    Whith Hyperion taking the Development, mud throwing toward MorphOS got a new level, the "stolen sourcecode myth" appeared and much worser things. Some people on "the other side" will tell you that MorphOS devs started that, because they kept telling there will be no OS 4.0 on Amiga one. Well, thats somewhat true, what those people don`t say is that this statements where made on the plans earlier made, namely H&P creating the OS, Escena/Eytech creating the A1200 based Amiga One. We all know today, that this indeed never happend, but Amiga kept people telling it`s "on shedule and rocking"

    A "betatester" Program was started for people wanting the first (mainly devs) having a new PPC motherboard (the Pegasos) together with a native Amigaalike OS (MorphOS)
    But there where still those Articia Issues...
    In around September or so, Allan Redhouse the one who runs Eyetech, made some statements about the Articia on the Pegs. (I guess he knew though, that a fix was allready worked on)
    The problems with the Articia where admitted later on, and in December 2002, when Pegasos and MorphOS 1.0 where officially introduced to the Public, also the April Fix for the faulty Articia was introduced. (on the same fair where also few Amiga Ones running still Linux shown, Hyperion and Amiga Inc told they can not attend to this fair, because they have hands full with their plans launching the new Amiga + OS 4 on Cebit in 2003 and where busy for making some Boxdesign for OS 4. Well, you might have noticed, neither Amiga, nor Hyperion went to Cebit though...)However, things still didn`t run as expected with this April Fix, so later on April 2 was build, and as it was with April 1, boards where replaced for free.
    That fix brought the Peg into a usable state, However in 2003 it became clear that Mai was not able to deliver working Northbridge chips and so they decided to abandon then Peg 1 design and go to Peg 2 with a marvell chipset instead. Up to now, things where actually very bright for MorphOS and the Pegasos, because of the financial support, we had a short frequence of Updates of MorphOS.
    However the Amiga curse hit Thendic and many bad things happend. Developers did not get paid, Thendic itself went bancrupt. However a new company, Genesi, was formed to continue marketing of the Pegasos. MorphOS was still part of that strategy. Unfortunatelly due the non payment, MorphOS development came to an halt, the last official release was in 2003, MorphOS 1.4. In 2004 one of the former core developer made the infamous morphos.net homepage (some people considered that as "hijacking" of the former official MorphOS site)
    There where many trouble going behind the scenes, and many people considered that step the final kill for MorphOS itself, also some interested major companies didn`t like that and dropped their interest (In an IRC log Virgin was named for example)
    2004 was also the year when the first OS 4.0 release finally made it on the Amiga one, before it "just" run on the PPC equipped Amigas. As a sidenote, those cards where made by Phase5, the same guys who later on formed Bplan and made the Pegasos.

    To sume it up, it is now end of 2005, and even if it was stated otherwise on the morphos.net homepage, some updates for MorphOS happend, bringing for example 3D to the radeon gfx cards (Voodoo support was allready available earlier) However, some people consider this still not that great, as those where "just" updates for the 1.4 line of MorphOS. However on 1.5 is still beeing worked on, some screenshots made it to the net, some features where mentioned as well.
    Yeah, we had our hard times in MorphOS land ( but so has OS 4.0, they have currently no available hardware, but some plans..)but things seems to be brighter again. Personally I even think Version 1.5 will happend in the near future (but note this is just a personal opinion based on some news made lately).

    Unfortunatelly the Core devs keep very silent and most time just present their work "when it`s done" ;)
    Some consider that behaviour as good, given the past and all those neverfullfilled anouncements, some are very impatient and think that there will be no new Version. And some people still keep telling everyone who ask, that MorphOS is dead as a dodo. (Which has been proven wrong)

    I can`t speak for the nowadays OS 4.0 development, however, both OSes are Amigaalike, imho they main difference is, one has the name, one has not. There are some minor advantages and disadvantages on both Incarnations, MorphOS public has better 3D, USB and Printer support, OS 4.0 has an integrated TCP stack where MOS 1.4 still relies on 3rd Party stuff (which works well, so don`t fear ;) )
    Hardwarewise the situation for MorphOS is somewhat better, the Pegasos is available and has itself established as a nice alternative PPC Board. AmigaOnes otoh are currently not available and it is questionable if they will be again. Also, Pegasos is indeed much cheaper and doesn`t have Articia which is still considerd faulty (depends on whom you ask, some will tell you missing cache coherency is a feature)

    Ok, thats it, as I allready said it`s mainly based from what I remember, some timeframes might be wrong though.
  • »03.12.05 - 15:14
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1193 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    However, OS 4.0 development was now taken by Hyperion,

    It could also be noted that some time before that there were negotiations about making MorphOS AmigaOS4. But the negotiations failed for many reasons (for example Amiga inc. demanded some big changes, such as changing CGX to P96, MUI to reaction etc.)

    Maybe those failed negotiations (and the decision to keep on developing MorphOS) launched the "Get Legal" -FUDcampaign.

    At that time MorphOS was lacking many programs that Classic AmigaOS had, but had it become the official AmigaOS, it could have used the files from AmigaOS3.x via emulation (well it could do that, but obviously those files could be only distributed with "AmigaOS" which MorphOS didn't become)

    Instead, the development team created similar programs "from scratch". MorphOS still lacks some less important utilities present on Classic AmigaOS (most of which most users consider useless anyway)

    MorphOS still hasn't got full arexx support (which you can get by replacing one file in MorphOS installation by same file from AmigaOS3.0 installation)

    (It should also be noted that if MorphOS had become official AmigaOS, the arexx support would still have had to be rewritten, as there's no valid license for it, even for 3.x releases!)

    Quote:

    2004 was also the year when the first OS 4.0 release finally made it on the Amiga one, before it "just" run on the PPC equipped Amigas.

    Only official betatesters had/have access to AmigaOS4.0 for Classic Amiga. 2004 was the year when AmigaOS4 beta was made available to EVERYONE who had bought A1.
  • »03.12.05 - 17:16
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