Problem in fresh install on Mac Mini G4
  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    I just performed a fresh install of MorphOS on a Mac Mini G4 and set it up for dual boot with MacOS 10.4.11. When trying to start Wayfarer, the initial loading window comes up and shows activity, but wayfarer never loads and soon the system locks up, becomes unresponsive and requires a hard reboot. The network is properly configured (I can ping www.google.com from a terminal) and other applications work fine (the included games, for example). The system has 1GB of RAM and memory utilization never exceeds from a couple of hundred megs, even when it locks up.

    The hardware seems to be fine (SMART on the drive is fine, Radeon video card works, network is up and running, etc.) and there is no special configuration in any way. MacOS works perfect.

    How can I troubleshoot this further?

    Thanks!
  • »05.03.23 - 14:54
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Amigaharry2
    Posts: 1241 from 2010/1/6
    From: EU-Austria (Wien)
    What version of MorphOS? 3.17?
    Please keep in mind, that at first start Wayfarer has to initialize its fonts. That can take some minutes.

    [ Editiert durch Amigaharry2 05.03.2023 - 16:48 ]
    Peg2, 3xPowerMac G5, 2xPowerbookG4, 2x MacMiniG4, Efika (again), A3000T and life is never boring.....
  • »05.03.23 - 16:38
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    In that case, I'll leave it running for a few minutes. Is it normal for it to lock up the entire Morph GUI as it does that? Version 3.17

    [ Edited by Flavio 05.03.2023 - 11:15 ]
  • »05.03.23 - 17:14
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    Well, I started MorphOS, clicked on the Wayfarer icon and left it on the opening rectangular window for more than 10 minutes. For the first 30 seconds or so, it was reading the drive but then it stopped. The bouncing line at the bottom keeps moving (even almost 15 minutes later), but the application is not starting. Are there logs that I can check to see what the problem is?

    Update: 30 minutes after clicking on the Wayfarer icon, it's still doing the same thing. I don't think this is the normal first time startup process, but please let me know if I'm wrong.

    Thanks!

    [ Edited by Flavio 05.03.2023 - 11:48 ]
  • »05.03.23 - 17:28
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2242 from 2003/2/24
    Check the debug log when it has frozen to get a more detailed view.

    SMART or no SMART my guess would still be the drive. HDD? SSD?
    You might just for testing try to install MorphOS to another partition as just moving Wayfarer elsewhere might not be enough.

    Or try what happens when booting from install media.
  • »05.03.23 - 18:48
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    I tried to update the entire installation from the original 3.17 CD and used the opportunity to test Wayfarer from the CD and it works fine. I updated the installation and now Wayfarer goes further but stops at loading a particular font, halfway. At this point, I must assume that there is some sort of HD problem (not unlikely, since this is the original 40GB PATA drive, which is 20 years old), that neither MorphOS nor SMART tools identify.

    Again, if someone come come up with additional tests, please let me know. In the meantime, I'll order a PATA to M.2 SATA adapter to replace that internal IDE drive by a modern SSD and see if that makes things work.

    Thanks again!
  • »05.03.23 - 18:52
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Check the debug log when it has frozen to get a more detailed view.

    SMART or no SMART my guess would still be the drive. HDD? SSD?
    You might just for testing try to install MorphOS to another partition as just moving Wayfarer elsewhere might not be enough.

    Or try what happens when booting from install media.


    That was exactly my thought and the test from the original CD works just fine. Thanks for the reply and the good pointer!!! See my other post on the next steps that I plan to follow (unfortunately, I don't think I can buy a new 2.5'' PATA drive, so I'll need to go the way of the PATA -> M.2 adapter to replace the drive by an SSD).

    All the best!
  • »05.03.23 - 18:54
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2242 from 2003/2/24
    Well I had both a PowerMac G4 and PowerBook where the original drives worked still fine in OSX but were nothing but trouble in MorphOS. My guess is that there is something in the way MorphOS accesses files that making near dead drives trip over their own feet.

    Needless to say that an SSD is always a large and cheap improvement even over an as good as new HDD.
  • »05.03.23 - 19:01
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Well I had both a PowerMac G4 and PowerBook where the original drives worked still fine in OSX but were nothing but trouble in MorphOS. My guess is that there is something in the way MorphOS accesses files that making near dead drives trip over their own feet.

    Needless to say that an SSD is always a large and cheap improvement even over an as good as new HDD.


    Absolutely! The only concern is to fit an adapter and an SSD in the tight space inside a Mac Mini. I found an adapter that has the shape of a standard 2.5'' PATA but provides a slot for an M.2 drive inside. Hopefully, it will fit fine. And I can use the opportunity to clean up all of the dust bunnies that I'm sure this little guy accumulated inside, and perhaps even replace the thermal paste (not sure how the CPU cooler fits, so this may be a stretch goal).
  • »05.03.23 - 19:15
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 874 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    It's odd to see a mechanical drive fail like that. Their modes are usually mechanical failure (*CLUNK*) or repeated unrecoverable filesystem errors. It's usually SSD that has subtle read failures that lock up devices. I've only ever lost one HDD, which gave me plenty of time to get the files off, but plenty of SSD which would either not boot sometimes (and then never), or cause random filesystem "meltings" where the filesystem would just corrupt in front of my eyes yet be fine after a reformat... for a while.

    My guess would be their cache, but that's wholly a guess.

    And being that Wayfarer is a heavy beast, it probably shows up there more, but you really should have been seeing problems on MacOS too.
  • »05.03.23 - 22:38
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    It's odd to see a mechanical drive fail like that. Their modes are usually mechanical failure (*CLUNK*) or repeated unrecoverable filesystem errors. It's usually SSD that has subtle read failures that lock up devices. I've only ever lost one HDD, which gave me plenty of time to get the files off, but plenty of SSD which would either not boot sometimes (and then never), or cause random filesystem "meltings" where the filesystem would just corrupt in front of my eyes yet be fine after a reformat... for a while.

    My guess would be their cache, but that's wholly a guess.

    And being that Wayfarer is a heavy beast, it probably shows up there more, but you really should have been seeing problems on MacOS too.


    Yeah, it's puzzling to me too, especially since SMART doesn't see any failed sectors. It could be the cache or the logic. Perhaps it's dusty in there and it overheated at some point. And I haven't seen any errors in MacOS at all. Their "hardware test" indicates that SMART is "verified", whatever that means.
  • »05.03.23 - 23:06
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 12 from 2022/12/5
    I would be tempted to plug the drive into a windows pc and let hdsentinel look at it.
    Its a comprehensive program that i have on all my windows installs.
  • »06.03.23 - 11:40
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    Quote:

    mooch wrote:
    I would be tempted to plug the drive into a windows pc and let hdsentinel look at it.
    Its a comprehensive program that i have on all my windows installs.


    Good suggestion! However, if I go through the effort to almost completely disassemble this Mac mini, I'll just replace that 40GB drive by an SSD. I have a 128GB M.2 SSD laying around, which would give it 3 times the space and make it a bit faster anyway. I'd still like to test the HD to see what the problem really is, but it may be hard to find another computer with PATA interfaces nowadays.
  • »06.03.23 - 12:16
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1246 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Flavio wrote:
    I'd still like to test the HD to see what the problem really is, but it may be hard to find another computer with PATA interfaces nowadays.



    Wouldn't some IDE to USB adapter do the job here?
  • »06.03.23 - 12:31
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    Flavio wrote:
    I'd still like to test the HD to see what the problem really is, but it may be hard to find another computer with PATA interfaces nowadays.



    Wouldn't some IDE to USB adapter do the job here?


    It probably would, but I don't have one and I'm not sure if'd buy one just to satisfy my curiosity :)
  • »06.03.23 - 13:16
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 10 from 2023/3/5
    To end with the G4 weird problem saga. I replaced the 40GB original hard drive with a 120GB SSD using one of the adapters recommended here. Installed OSX 10.5.8, which works acceptably well now (I think the SSD really helps make things feel more responsive and have faster starts). Installed MorphOS and everything works absolutely fine, with no weird problems. This really points fingers at the old hard drive, which was probably already failing, even though SMART didn't indicate so.

    Now I can finally start playing with MorphOS to see if it works for me.

    Thanks for all the help!!!!!
  • »09.03.23 - 03:37
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