CPU architecture change?
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 186 from 2011/11/16
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf schrieb:
    >> "Because I want to" [...] would be the only valid response
    >> if someone asked me why do I use MorphOS and not Windows/OSX
    >> on a mainstream machine.

    > It is irrational to use MorphOS too because if you would
    > be "sane" you would use Windows or Linux or a Mac instead.

    That's exactly what he said in the comment you replied to.


    yes you are right
  • »15.03.22 - 14:10
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Zetec-s
    Posts: 178 from 2008/7/10
    From: Cheshire, UK
    Like everybody I really want to see this OS continue by transferring to a new CPU, but I am also keen to see the graphics card side of things develop, something which hopefully can be used both on PPC MorphOS and any future MorphOS on another CPU.

    I know that the MorphOS team will state that not enough users have PCIe machines and therefore access to newer graphics cards, but the Sam460, X5000 and late G5 MacPro do provide access to these. At the moment the only advantage that AmigaOS4 has over MorphOS is its graphics drivers and even then they cost extra (something which I am not opposed to on MorphOS by the way).

    Just think if MorphOS could make the first move to more modern graphics and then subsequently the mover to a new CPU, it would be the clear leader in Amiga NG operating systems.

    More modern graphics and newer CPU should (and I'm no developer) make porting modern applications from Linux much more of a possibility, surely.
    PowerMac G5 Quad 2.5Ghz/2GB MorphOS 3.17 Registered
    Powerbook 1.67Ghz/1.5GB MorphOS 3.17 Registered
    MacMini 1.5Ghz/1GB MorphOS 3.17 Registered
    Efika 5200B 400Mhz/128MB MorphOS 2.3 Registered
  • »15.03.22 - 16:13
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    tolkien
    Posts: 420 from 2013/5/29
    Its obvious that MorphOS needs a jump to another architecture. The team knows it.
    But I really love this OS. And really love my classics machines. They are complement.

    If Wayfarer goes "a bit" quicker (js jit?), and I think it is fast with that all crap websites, then It would be nearest perfect.
    MorphOS: PowerMac G5 - PowerBook G4 - MacMini.
    Classic: Amiga 1200/060 - A500 PiStorm
  • »15.03.22 - 18:49
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 245 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Architecture change is interesting idea.
    But before it I would prefer some updates of long-standing forgotten inefficiencies.

    for example
    -Efika: MOS not recognized second ATA device
    -Pegasos 1+2: sata.device PCI SiI3xxx cards are recognized only like UDMA5 (100MB/s). AmigaOS recognized it correctly (UDMA6) and disks are faster
    -missing any PCI 1GbE NIC driver
    -Promise SATA2 PCI driver will be fine in boot.img
    -missing USB3.0 driver
    -graphics support was mentioned many times

    MorphOS main power is in his efficiency, amenity and speed on low powered devices. Architecture change to powerfull AMD64 only reverals, that compared to other OSes (linux, Windows) there are missing very very very much standart features and software.
    Makes sense to change to another "low"-powered architecture like ARM, but there will be (except standart ITX/ATX ARM motherboards) problems with support of graphics chips.

    For me also not problem stay on PPC and port to some obscure devices like T2080, or Blacbird/Talos. I know, Talos is more than two times expensive than X5000, but hundred times powerful (if we want more power ;-)). And Blackbird has nearly the same price as X5000.

    Anyway, all this is on MOS development team decision.
    Did you remember discussions and advices to Apple before their ISA switching?






    [ Edited by sailor 16.03.2022 - 10:31 ]
    AmigaOS: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »16.03.22 - 07:47
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 155 from 2019/4/6
    Ok, this is a bit of a weird idea.
    And I don't even know if it's feasible. :-)

    Why not release a "VESA" x64 only version
    With the purchase of an initial compulsory license obviously at a lower price.

    Later with the arrival of graphics support release a second license that completes the total price.

    This would somehow help the developers work with initial earnings.

    Furthermore, a "BUG" signaling system for Morphos x64 could be integrated to signal and integrate the various "FIX" gradually.

    This could be a basic idea to start having a first "FEEDBACK" of the new x64 system.
    And from time to time add support to all the "DRIVERS" you need.

    In reality then I do not know if this is feasible and what practical uses could be had in "VESA" mode for an initial practical daily use.

    I am not a developer
    This is just a possibly completely wrong idea.

    But in the end, for example, spending 30-40 euros per user for a first license like this would be fine.

    Then in the end if Morphos x64 is not made for various reasons at least somehow support has been given for the work done.

    Would it be feasible? :-)
  • »16.03.22 - 08:57
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Architecture change to powerfull AMD64 only reverals, that
    > compared to other OSes (linux, Windows) there are missing
    > very very very much standart features and software.

    Current MorphOS-compatible computers can run Linux as well :-)
    Besides, this revelation doesn't require MorphOS and the "other OS" to run on the same hardware.

    > Talos is more than two times expensive than X5000, but hundred times powerful

    With SMP-less MorphOS this factor would be significantly lower, I guess.
  • »16.03.22 - 10:50
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 245 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Current MorphOS-compatible computers can run Linux as well :-)


    Yes, I have also linux on my MorphOS and AmigaOS machines.

    But people who buy this machines due to linux are very few. If any. Maybe Xeno74.
    On this machines MorphOS is very fast and comfortable and linux slow. I have linux here for joy from obscure PPC platform and for Office.

    People with fast X86 PC have very little reason to buy MorphOS for this. Better games? Internet? Office? Joy? Special programs? Fast CUDA? Networking? I don't think so. And Amiga sense? Look for last WinUAE changes.

    I think only people on (far less) obscure platform like ARM where the systems are not so user-friendly and where resources are often limited (but big enough from our point of view) will have benefit from using MorphOS.

    But it is my oppinion. MOSdev can make their own good or bad decision.



    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    With SMP-less MorphOS this factor would be significantly lower, I guess.


    Agree, and this can be way for future development.
    AmigaOS: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »16.03.22 - 15:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > People with fast X86 PC have very little reason to buy MorphOS
    > for this. [...] I think only people on (far less) obscure
    > platform like ARM [...] will have benefit from using MorphOS.

    According to the MorphOS team, you won't be able to run MorphOS/x64 on your PC you happen to have at home anyway. Drivers will be for defined boards/components or machines, so running MorphOS/x64 will most likely require you to buy dedicated hardware. Of course, you will also be able to run Windows or Linux on it, but the incentive to buy the hardware will be running MorphOS, same as with ARM-based SBCs (in case of potential MorphOS/ARM) and today's MorphOS-compatible hardware that can also run Linux.

    Bottom line: Who wants to run MorphOS has to buy dedicated hardware, no matter the ISA.
  • »16.03.22 - 17:13
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 245 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Bottom line: Who wants to run MorphOS has to buy dedicated hardware, no matter the ISA.


    We will see. Who knows, maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.
    AmigaOS: Micro A1-C, AmigaOne XE, Pegasos II, Sam440ep-flex, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Efika 5200b, Pegasos I, Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, Mac Mini, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »16.03.22 - 20:45
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 796 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    sailor wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Bottom line: Who wants to run MorphOS has to buy dedicated hardware, no matter the ISA.


    We will see. Who knows, maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.


    I can't imagine how you'd be surprised. Someone's got to write all the drivers.

    Not to mention that there's just a lot out there that can never support a 32-bit shared memory address OS like MorphOS or AmigaOS. Buying a 16 core CPU machine, 64 GB of RAM when you can only ever use one core and 2 GB is pretty daft, even before we get into trying to support modern graphics cards....
  • »16.03.22 - 21:43
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > there's just a lot out there that can never support a
    > 32-bit shared memory address OS like MorphOS or AmigaOS.
    > Buying a 16 core CPU machine, 64 GB of RAM when you can
    > only ever use one core and 2 GB is pretty daft

    Isn't MorphOS on AMD64/x64, once released, supposed to be 64-bit and support SMP and full memory protection?
  • »17.03.22 - 00:08
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 796 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > there's just a lot out there that can never support a
    > 32-bit shared memory address OS like MorphOS or AmigaOS.
    > Buying a 16 core CPU machine, 64 GB of RAM when you can
    > only ever use one core and 2 GB is pretty daft

    Isn't MorphOS on AMD64/x64, once released, supposed to be 64-bit and support SMP and full memory protection?


    There's nothing that can do this and still remain compatible.
  • »17.03.22 - 18:40
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11551 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> there's just a lot out there that can never support a
    >>> 32-bit shared memory address OS like MorphOS or AmigaOS.
    >>> Buying a 16 core CPU machine, 64 GB of RAM when you can
    >>> only ever use one core and 2 GB is pretty daft

    >> Isn't MorphOS on AMD64/x64, once released, supposed to be
    >> 64-bit and support SMP and full memory protection?

    > There's nothing that can do this and still remain compatible.

    Comment #59 doesn't say or imply anything about remaining compatible (nor does any other comment in this thread).
  • »17.03.22 - 19:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2027 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    KennyR schrieb:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > there's just a lot out there that can never support a
    > 32-bit shared memory address OS like MorphOS or AmigaOS.
    > Buying a 16 core CPU machine, 64 GB of RAM when you can
    > only ever use one core and 2 GB is pretty daft

    Isn't MorphOS on AMD64/x64, once released, supposed to be 64-bit and support SMP and full memory protection?


    There's nothing that can do this and still remain compatible.


    There's no free lunch. Losing binary compability is probably the price of going x64. But I could somehow imagine that there is a compability layer possible - put current MorphOS in a "box" (UAE, Qemu,...). Eventually MorphOS would become the box system we once were talking about. Well, kind of.
    Dunno, we are takling about this since a decade now (I wrote about it in 2011: https://via.i-networx.de/q86.htm) and still we are where we are. MorphOS became better and better, we got a brilliant new browser and mailer and this and that, but we are still on old PPCs.
    It a great OS with great applications, but it is run with a pulled handbrake!
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »17.03.22 - 22:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    SoundSquare
    Posts: 1210 from 2004/12/1
    From: Paris, France
    i haven't checked MorphOS news for years and if i understand it well the path chosen for the future is still X86/64 ? While it would have made sense a few years ago it's just the worst possible direction to take today. MorphOS is a very lightweight OS that should run on small machines/CPU, not those X86/AMD64 uneffcient monsters. The future is more than ever about saving energy, Running MorphOS on a Mac G5 is such an ecological abomination.

    Think about the benefit of a PI4 MorphOS port, a fast enough machine for MorphOS, same drivers for everyone, low power consumption, easy to find (well maybe not since Covid) and CHEAP !

    The Raspberry PI4 (or future 5) is such a logical choice that i don't understand why it wasn't choosen as the future plaform, maybe too obvious ?

    [ Edited by SoundSquare 28.03.2022 - 15:00 ]
  • »28.03.22 - 12:59
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1319 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    SoundSquare wrote:
    i haven't checked MorphOS news for years and if i understand it well the path chosen for the future is still X86/64 ? While it would have made sense a few years ago it's just the worst possible direction to take today.

    No, it is not. You completely ignore aspects such as single-core performance (for emulation of legacy CPUs), comprehensive developer documentation, long-term hardware availability and longevity, etc.

    Quote:

    MorphOS is a very lightweight OS that should run on small machines/CPU, not those X86/AMD64 uneffcient monsters. The future is more than ever about saving energy, Running MorphOS on a PowerMac G5 is such an ecological abomination.

    You are completely ignoring that different energy sources have different harm profiles.

    If you power your Mac G5 via solar, wind, geothermal or hydro power, there is zero ecological harm in running your computer for many hours a day.

    In France, where most energy is produced by nuclear power plants, I think you might agree that the amount of additional nuclear waste caused by people running PowerMac G5 computers would be immeasurably small.

    Moreover, based on a 2011 study, as much as 70% of the energy a typical laptop will consume during its life span is used in manufacturing the computer. Energy expenditure for manufacturing a desktop computer was 50% higher even.

    It is worthwhile to consider that running many older computers for longer periods of time before they get replaced can be more sustainable (savings of raw materials and - in some cases - even energy).

    Quote:

    Think about the benefit of a PI4 MorphOS port, a fast enough machine for MorphOS, same drivers for everyone, low power consumption, easy to find (well maybe not since Covid) and CHEAP !

    "Cheap" is a double-edged sword.

    We have had quite a few people come here and complain that they found it incomprehensible that a MorphOS license would cost more money than the free (or close to free) PowerMac they managed to find, which they were only able to use in the first place because the developers spent countless hours to make the OS support these affordable machines.

    Quote:

    The Raspberry PI4 (or future 5) is such a logical choice that i don't understand why it wasn't choosen as the future plaform, maybe too obvious ?

    The AMD64 version of MorphOS that was demonstrated in Neuss was able to run PowerPC and 68K code. You could not really pull this off with Pi4-level single-core performance.
  • »28.03.22 - 14:30
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 155 from 2019/4/6
    I personally have no preference as to where "morphos" should work obviously on recent hardware though.

    And I don't see why always if it is possible for developers to make it on x64.

    So that you have "Windows" "Hackintosh" "Linux" and "Morphos" on 4 different disks with a dedicated bootloader.

    And then only the imagination of each of us is enough to have fun :-)

    But it would be nice to have it soon :-)
  • »28.03.22 - 16:55
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