Intel Mac Hardware
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 314 from 2003/7/26
    From: Chicago, IL
    Now that Apple is actively kicking all of the Intel Mac hardware to the dustbin I think it would be a no brainer for the x86 version of MorphOS to support that hardware that gets cheaper by the day. Just my opinion as a developer. I’m hopeful that the x86 version of MorphOS comes out sooner rather than later. Hopefully the global pandemic allowed more coding time for MorphOS 4.0 but of course I don’t know that.

    [ Edited by discreetfx 29.05.2021 - 10:27 ]
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  • »29.05.21 - 16:26
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4953 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    discreetfx wrote:
    Now that Apple is actively kicking all of the Intel Mac hardware to the dustbin I think it would be a no brainer for the x86 version of MorphOS to support that hardware that gets cheaper by the day. Just my opinion as a developer. I’m hopeful that the x86 version of MorphOS comes out sooner rather than later. Hopefully the global pandemic allowed more coding time for MorphOS 4.0 but of course I don’t know that.


    Moving from one deadend Apple ISA/platform to another deadend Apple platform? No thanks, I'm hoping the developers center around something that's available new.
    Like a current AMD based system.
    AMD over Intel for performance (with some APUs featuring reasonably good onboard graphics).
    Although, without anything other than a driver port, we could have 2D, 3D, and overlay support with an X1950 graphics card.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »29.05.21 - 16:42
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Posts: 314 from 2003/7/26
    From: Chicago, IL
    Well it worked out great on PPC Mac hardware and Intel hardware sold way more and was a lot more successful.
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1089 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    discreetfx wrote:
    Well it worked out great on PPC Mac hardware and Intel hardware sold way more and was a lot more successful.


    It worked much of a necessity. And a lot of Team's time and nerves was wasted on writing drivers basing on partial/incomplete/missing documentation. Moreover - it's not uncommon that the same revision of Apple hardware is using different parts.
    If we're going x64 then may the hardware be reliable and relatively new - not some 10 year old used Apple laptop.
  • »30.05.21 - 07:39
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2035 from 2003/2/24
    With the current state of being limited to AMD/ATI GFX that would exclude all MacMinsi and all but the bigger Pro MacBooks, so that a hard pass.

    The last glimpse of MorphOS-AMD64 we got (at Amiga34) was running on a at that time current mobo with an ancient RadeonHD card and AFAIK adapting it to different mobos wouldn't be that big of a problem (for basic functionality).

    In the long run it would IMO be best to focus on AMD CPUs with integrated GFX as that seems to be the only viable way to supporting a laptop or small form factor desktop (pretty much everything else is either Intel with integrated GPU or NVidia).
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  • »30.05.21 - 10:16
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 128 from 2017/8/7
    Also, it is a weird assumption on Intel Macs getting significantly cheaper, as history has proven the opposite, except for faulty models...
  • »30.05.21 - 10:59
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2035 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    amifrog wrote:
    Also, it is a weird assumption on Intel Macs getting significantly cheaper, as history has proven the opposite, except for faulty models...


    Of course they are getting cheaper, just not as fast and low as normal x86 HW.

    Most PPC Mac took 10-15 years to bottom out at sub 100€ only to creep back afterwards as collectors items.
    Pretty much like real Porsches which also never go really cheap.
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  • »30.05.21 - 11:04
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 128 from 2017/8/7
    Yes, it doesn't matter if the last iMac pro goes down by 50%, it will stay at 2.5k$ the next 10 years probably.
  • »30.05.21 - 11:19
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2035 from 2003/2/24
    Nah, once there is an AS replacement prices will start to slide down, just like with the TrashPro which really only came down a year after the the new cheesegrater got released.

    In 2 or 3 years you will be able to pick up base configs around 500$/€.

    Not that the iMacPro would ever be a suitable candidate for an MorphOS port.
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  • »30.05.21 - 11:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11364 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it is a weird assumption on Intel Macs getting significantly cheaper,
    > as history has proven the opposite, except for faulty models...

    I think history has proven very well that Macs (PPC as well as x86(-64)) do indeed get significantly cheaper over time, especially after not being supported anymore by the most recent macOS release. What's 'the opposite' of 'significantly cheaper' anyway?
  • »30.05.21 - 15:44
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 128 from 2017/8/7
    It means that while they get cheaper over time, they take longer to loose enough value to be cheap.
    And then their value follow a bell curve up, when they getting sparse and therefore become collectible.
    Heck, there a still PPC macs sold for up to several 100$.
    Intel Mac minis reach 500$ for a corei7 from 2012. And as we are no longer in the 'testing period' of MorphOS we cannot seriously recommend a CoreDuo machine, can we?
  • »30.05.21 - 16:32
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2035 from 2003/2/24
    CoreDuo would be 32bit, so I think it is better to pass these...
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  • »30.05.21 - 17:00
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Piru
    Posts: 489 from 2003/2/24
    From: finland, the l...
    I see absolutely no point it tying ourselves to Apple hardware here. The only reason this happened earlier was that Apple was the only abundant source of powerpc hardware.

    With amd64 there are superior options compared to Apple hardware.

    PS. This is my personal opinion, not some official team statement to any direction.

    [ Edited by Piru 30.05.2021 - 19:04 ]
  • »30.05.21 - 17:02
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 178 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Yes, AMD64 is look much better today than Apple Intel hardware.

    But my opinion (as MOS + AOS4 user) is, that MorphOS cannot utilize the power that AMD offers. Simply - what to do with MorphOS on Ryzen with modern gfx? For me in every usecase is better linux or Windows. What MorphOS can offer for current AMD linux/win user?

    For me make sense to have MorphOS on non-mainstream or low-power devices, where it can compete with speed and user-friendly design. Here it can compete - on all the FruitPi or other ARM machines, or all obscure power sytems what remains.



    [ Edited by sailor 30.05.2021 - 21:14 ]
    AmigaOS: Pegasos II, Sam440ep-flex, Micro A1-C, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »30.05.21 - 17:30
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11364 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > they get cheaper over time

    Yes, and significantly at that.

    > then their value follow a bell curve up, when they getting
    > sparse and therefore become collectible. Heck, there a
    > still PPC macs sold for up to several 100$.

    At least on eBay Germany, G5 PowerMacs that were introduced at a basic price of 2000…3300 USD/EUR (depending on model) in 2005 have been going for 134 EUR on average during the last 3 months and have been going for about that average price for some years. I bought 2 of them for 6% of their introductory basic price. The 'bell curve up' for these models has yet to start it seems.

    > Intel Mac minis reach 500$ for a corei7 from 2012.

    On eBay Germany, for the 54 machines of this exact type (introductory basic price: 800…1100 USD / 830…1130 EUR, depending on model) that were successfully sold during the last 3 months, the price distribution is as follows:

    001…100 EUR: 1
    101…200 EUR: 2
    201…300 EUR: 21
    301…400 EUR: 21
    401…475 EUR: 9

    500 USD would be about 410 EUR currently, so with 15% of the machines selling higher and 85% of the machines selling lower, that's way above the average price here in Germany at least.
  • »30.05.21 - 18:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2012 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    sailor schrieb:
    Yes, AMD64 is look much better today than Apple Intel hardware.

    But my opinion (as MOS + AOS4 user) is, that MorphOS cannot utilize the power that AMD offers. Simply - what to do with MorphOS on Ryzen with modern gfx? For me in every usecase is better linux or Windows. What MorphOS can offer for current AMD linux/win user?


    [ Edited by sailor 30.05.2021 - 21:14 ]



    As we recently got a nice up to date browser I know of an application that needs more grunt...

    If we "need" the lastest Ryzen may be questionable, but i don't see an actual disadvantage in supporting the latest hardware.
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  • »30.05.21 - 21:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11364 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > AMD64 is look much better today than Apple Intel hardware.

    Apple Intel hardware is AMD64 ISA :-)

    > MorphOS cannot utilize the power that AMD offers. Simply - what
    > to do with MorphOS on Ryzen with modern gfx?

    The same that is being done with MorphOS on old G5 and old Radeon graphics, which MorphOS can even less utilize the power of (SMP, 64-bit, UVD etc.). MorphOS on AMD64/x64 is supposed to be 64-bit and support SMP, at least.

    > For me in every usecase is better linux or Windows.
    > What MorphOS can offer for current AMD linux/win user?

    Of course, there is objectively nothing that can be done better on MorphOS compared to Linux/Windows. That's not the point of it anyway. MorphOS isn't meant for the average Linux/Windows user, but for users who want to have fun doing computing an Amiga-ish way. Therefore, it's mostly a subjective and emotional matter. MorphOS doesn't get more usable just because it runs on less capable hardware.
  • »30.05.21 - 21:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11364 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > As we recently got a nice up to date browser
    > I know of an application that needs more grunt...

    To be fair, a WebKit-based browser on MorphOS/x64 will be able to use an existing JS JIT compiler, so the required CPU grunt for this will actually be less on x64 than it is now on PPC.
  • »30.05.21 - 21:14
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    sailor
    Posts: 178 from 2019/5/9
    From: Central Bohemi...
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    If we "need" the lastest Ryzen may be questionable, but i don't see an actual disadvantage in supporting the latest hardware.


    It is not disadvantage in general. But it will hardly attract new users from linux/windows world. It only speeds up our web browsing.
    AmigaOS: Pegasos II, Sam440ep-flex, Micro A1-C, AmigaOneX1000
    MorphOS: Pegasos II, Powerbook G4, iMac G5, Powermac G5 Quad
  • »30.05.21 - 21:41
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