COVID-19
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2703 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    @takemehomegrandma,

    Thanks for your reply, and I hope that you and your family will be okay, and not experience severe symptoms. I believe that your whole family is probably now infected with the COVID-19 virus, so I hope you will all stay isolated for at least the next two weeks, to protect other people who are at higher risk than yourselves. I hope that none of your family experience severe symptoms. As someone who has Asthma, and who has had severe breathing difficulties in the past, where my blood oxygen level has dropped below 85%, I know first hand what it feels like to not be able to get enough oxygen and struggle to get air into the smallest parts of my lungs, where the oxygen transfer occurs. It feels like an elephant is standing on your chest.

    I don't think that the policies Sweden has adopted regarding elementary schools remaining open, and no restrictions for travel, are a good idea, and I believe that we will see many deaths in your country over the next few months, but it will allow your country to "get over" this pandemic sooner than most other countries, I guess? Is there any scientific proof that a person becomes immune, after they have experienced the virus once? I have not even heard or read that the medical scientist have confirmed how long a person remains contagious, or exactly how long a person can be a carrier and spreader of the virus. There appear to be many unknowns still, and information is slow to be confirmed and released to the public.

    I went out shopping yesterday and put everything we bought out on the front deck of our house and sprayed it with a bleach solution, and let it sit for over 10 minutes, before bringing it into the house. I washed my hands probably a dozen times yesterday, but still have problems keeping my hands away from my face, which I am still working on to change that behavior.

    Thanks again for sharing your story, and I hope you and your family will be okay and not experience any severe symptoms. Take care, and please do all you can to not spread the virus to anyone else.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »25.03.20 - 16:26
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 728 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Immunologically speaking, once you've had the virus once and recovered, you will have produced antibodies to it that grant heavy resistance if not outright immunity. There are two types of antibody mode of action that are relevant to viruses; neutralisation (they stick to the virus and make it impossible to infect cells) and complement/killer cell activation (they stick to infected cells and mark them for white blood cells to kill before they can produce too much virus).

    Antibodies are great, but not perfect. The more effective they are, the more specific they tend to be to a particular molecular pattern called an "epitope". Your body will produce a range of antibodies to multiple epitopes on the virus, ranging from the broad-acting but not particularly effective, to the extremely effective but also extremely specific. Once you've been infected once, not only do you have antibodies circulating in blood and mucous against the virus, but the body is primed to more quickly recognise the virus and act against it if it encounters it because white blood cells that know it will still be floating around in your circulation in large numbers, ready to pump out more antibody the moment they get a sniff of their old enemy again.

    Virologically speaking, however...

    ...this is an RNA virus. Replication of this kind of virus is prone to error, so it mutates like crazy. And it's also among the most contagious viruses ever encountered. There's no guarantee that the very specific antibodies you make will still recognise it if it comes back to you after infecting a chain of a few thousand other people. In that case, you'll get a much milder infection, and will be much less infectious.

    But there's also the possibility that it mutates so much that you can get it again and none of your previous antibodies recognise it. Anecdotally, people who have seasonal flu will get it badly every 4-10 years or so because the viral structure is now so different that your system just doesn't recognise it.

    TLDR; we don't know if you can get it again. Work is urgently being done to find out.

    And it's worth pointing out that scientists are among the worst paid and most insecure of all "professional" jobs in Europe and North America. They're now being relied upon to save millions of lives. Stockmarket speculators on the other hand tend to be crazy rich and almost sent the world into depression panicking over their shares. If that's not a shitty system, I don't know what is.

    [ Edited by KennyR 25.03.2020 - 18:37 ]
  • »25.03.20 - 19:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2634 from 2003/2/24
    Thanks for the kind words, amigadave! :-)

    I'm feeling about the same, maybe slightly worse but not at all that bad. Been little more than a week now. Or more, difficult to say exactly when it started. If this is as bad as it gets, then it's kind of OK. Not very fun, but absolutely tolerable. And it could be the flu, but I honestly don't think so. Not a cold either.


    Quote:

    I believe that your whole family is probably now infected with the COVID-19 virus, so I hope you will all stay isolated for at least the next two weeks, to protect other people who are at higher risk than yourselves.


    Here the advice is indeed to stay at home if you are infected, but also to continue to go to work/school as long as you don't have any symptoms, even if family members of the household are infected.


    Quote:

    I don't think that the policies Sweden has adopted regarding elementary schools remaining open, and no restrictions for travel, are a good idea


    Schools are still open, no plans of closing them. The max size of public gatherings still lies at 500 people.

    No travel bans, neither international nor domestic. I don't think they have ever practice quarantine on arrivals, in fact I don't think they screen the passengers either. They do put up posters in multiple languages at the arrivals of where to turn if you feel symptoms or develop symptoms later. But there is no testing anymore of people with symptoms, not of *anyone* except those in high-risk groups, health care staff and those with severe symptoms, so why should they test arrivals from abroad? I couldn't get tested myself if I wanted to, even if I put a pile of cash on the table. They would simply say: "Yes it's probably covid, act as if it would be, practice self-isolation and ride it out. Come back if it gets worse."

    Yesterday they held a press conference. Many thought they would announce a reduction of the size of max gatherings, closure of schools, or whatever. But it was an announcement that restaurants were no longer allowed to take orders (for food or drinks) at the bar counter, that you are from now on only allowed to order from a waitress/waiter while seated at a table. Someone asked if buffets were to be banned, but not so, that's up to the restaurants to decide, but everyone should remember to keep 1.5-2 meters distance from other guests. In practice, nobody is serving any buffets anymore. And few people are visiting restaurants at all.

    We have the Easter holiday coming up in a few weeks, and in conjunction with that there is a one week school break. Traditionally, many take this occasion to go to ski resorts in the mountains. They will not close the resorts and they say it's fine to go as long as you make sure to keep your distance to other people, and make sure you can travel home by your own means (or with the assistance of your own family) if you get ill, since you can't expect aid from local authorities and public services with limited resources and capacity. I doubt many will go this year though.


    Quote:

    and I believe that we will see many deaths in your country over the next few months


    I believe there will be many deaths, but another reason is that our healthcare system was at its brink before this even started, they could hardly cope with normal day-to-day operation in "peace time". And there were no preparedness for something like this. The protective gear was simply not there in enough quantities, etc.


    Quote:

    but it will allow your country to "get over" this pandemic sooner than most other countries, I guess?


    The funny part is they say the aim is exactly the opposite, they want to *delay* the peak as long as they can, meaning a longer outbreak but lower peak. But they are solely relying on people's earnest will to participate in disease control by taking responsibility of their own actions, instead of enforcing authoritative actions that they believe people will ignore or find ways to avoid. The idea is that we can only fight this if *everyone volunteer* to make necessary sacrifices in social contacts etc for a limited time. "Pull" instead of "Push", so to say. I heard some country banned people from going outside altogether, except from walking their dogs? Italy? Spain? Only to discover how resourceful dog-owners started to rent out their dogs to people wanting to go outside. Going outside is not a problem, and enforcing that kind of ban could be just for show from the authorities, a mean to show decisiveness to the people, but will end up having no real effect on the outbreak and causing other kinds of damage to the society instead.

    Something that differs Sweden (or maybe Scandinavia as a whole, I don't know) from many other countries, especially the southern countries in Europe, is that we are much more solitary by nature. Almost antisocial, some would say. ;-) We keep to ourselves in tight circles. As awful as it may sound, we are relying more on strong, public institutions than our family, institutions that over the decades has replaced much of the needs of safety and protection that big families or even clans may provide when it comes to people of other origin. This can be something the authorities has factored in, when making decisions. In fact, now when things are starting to ramp up here, it seems to be an over-representation of infected (and deceased) Somalians residing in certain suburbs to Stockholm. Still too early to tell, but it could very well be that they have a different way of living, huge families (or even clans) living tightly together, sharing everything, participating in each other lives. We swedes don't do that. ;-)

    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »26.03.20 - 16:20
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1392 from 2003/4/13
    "Fascists", "Maoists" and #orangeman bad already?

    Stay safe, but I'm out.
  • »26.03.20 - 20:25
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1070 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Edit: Really can't be arsed.

    [ Edited by Intuition 27.03.2020 - 18:22 ]
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  • »27.03.20 - 08:37
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1070 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Immunologically speaking, once you've had the virus once and recovered, you will have produced antibodies to it that grant heavy resistance if not outright immunity. There are two types of antibody mode of action that are relevant to viruses; neutralisation (they stick to the virus and make it impossible to infect cells) and complement/killer cell activation (they stick to infected cells and mark them for white blood cells to kill before they can produce too much virus).

    Antibodies are great, but not perfect. The more effective they are, the more specific they tend to be to a particular molecular pattern called an "epitope". Your body will produce a range of antibodies to multiple epitopes on the virus, ranging from the broad-acting but not particularly effective, to the extremely effective but also extremely specific. Once you've been infected once, not only do you have antibodies circulating in blood and mucous against the virus, but the body is primed to more quickly recognise the virus and act against it if it encounters it because white blood cells that know it will still be floating around in your circulation in large numbers, ready to pump out more antibody the moment they get a sniff of their old enemy again.

    Virologically speaking, however...

    ...this is an RNA virus. Replication of this kind of virus is prone to error, so it mutates like crazy. And it's also among the most contagious viruses ever encountered. There's no guarantee that the very specific antibodies you make will still recognise it if it comes back to you after infecting a chain of a few thousand other people. In that case, you'll get a much milder infection, and will be much less infectious.

    But there's also the possibility that it mutates so much that you can get it again and none of your previous antibodies recognise it. Anecdotally, people who have seasonal flu will get it badly every 4-10 years or so because the viral structure is now so different that your system just doesn't recognise it.

    TLDR; we don't know if you can get it again. Work is urgently being done to find out.

    And it's worth pointing out that scientists are among the worst paid and most insecure of all "professional" jobs in Europe and North America. They're now being relied upon to save millions of lives. Stockmarket speculators on the other hand tend to be crazy rich and almost sent the world into depression panicking over their shares. If that's not a shitty system, I don't know what is.


    So basically we are fooked. :/
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  • »27.03.20 - 08:38
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    number6
    Posts: 408 from 2008/8/10
    @thread

    If you google "virus mutating" or "virus not mutating" now, you'll encounter many articles indicating low rate of mutation.
    This is considered a plus when it comes to development of a longer lasting vaccine.

    #6
  • »27.03.20 - 13:33
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1070 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    Quote:

    amifrog schrieb:
    But for around 80% of the society infection means nothing more than a little incomfort.

    Don't you agree that controlling safe access and nursery of a minority takes less effort than controlling the outbreak of a mere inconvenience to the majority of people including shutting down all systems that could help those in real danger?


    No I fully disagree - you cannot warrant something ike a safe access. This virus is a b*tch. The incubation time and lack of tests makes it impossible to warrant ceratin a heath state. The idea to selectively isolate risk groups is a typical half theoretical approch. Sounds handy but will fail 100%.

    And indeed, for 80% of the infected ppl the SARS CoV-2 does not elicit the Severe Acutre Respiratory Syndrome, but for up to 20% it does. Start counting to 5, point finger and say "you're out". Tik-tok, I hear you...
    look to Italy, look to Wuhan, look to Spain and think your ideas over.
    There is _no_ alternative to minimizing infections within the entiresociety.

    And again. Covid-19 is dangerous for _all_ ppl. The risk though roughly scales up with age, but it is way off from being zero for yougers. In France 50% of the severe cases are younger than 60 years.

    As unfortuante as it is: there is no plan b. As of now (no vaccination, no real cure) minimizing infections is the only way to minimize deathes/severe cases.


    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/health-environment/article/3075164/south-koreas-coronavirus-response-opposite-china-and
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  • »28.03.20 - 08:33
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1953 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Intuition schrieb:

    https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/health-environment/article/3075164/south-koreas-coronavirus-response-opposite-china-and



    I think South Korea does handle the issue best of all nations. But the article does not draw the full picture. The Korean approach does work only if the system is still working. In northern Italy the infrastructure is way overstressed, in Spain (and some other countries) the same. These countries have no alternative to the most restrictive lock down. Once the infection rate is put down with these hard methods the Korean approach should be copycated to maintain the situation for the coming monthes.
    Most countries have reacted too slow, many countries lack the infrastructure.
    I think for example Germany could soon reach the state to copycat Korea (we have high numbers, but the health care system is still working, hopefully it will stay so). Currently most coutries lack the simple things: face masks, gloves, etc.
    Me and my wife we are actully sewing some face masks (cotton doulble layer), output is low, but better than nothing: yesterday evening we made 6pcs, today about 10 will follow. The idea gets momntum here now, I heard of some communities (smaller cities in the Eifel region) that centrally bought medical cotton and give it to the citiziens to sew masks themselves.
    I am glad to live in a region where the situation is still relatively under control (yesterday we had more cures than new infections in my town, but this was probably a lucky day and not the turning point).


    Testing, isolation of infected ppl, pursuing contacts of infected ppl, protection (distance, (hand) washing, face masks, protective glasses and gloves) - that's the way to handle it.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »28.03.20 - 11:08
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 127 from 2013/8/25
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    The real blow will be to the economy. It's already a fact, but we may not have seen the bottom by far yet. This is crippling to all small businesses. Restaurants and store owners, who overnight had their entire business erased. Nobody going out to restaurants, bars, clubs. Nobody shops, other than groceries. They have had their legs completely swept away by this, and they will land on their heads. Hard. This will change a lot. E-commerce has been pushing normal stores to the side for a long time. A process that could be fast forwarded by this outbreak by a magnitude. This blow could be one single spine-cracker that will cripple normal stores and malls forever. Changing the trade industry and in a way the world as we know it.



    After we get through this, this will be one other tragedy of this whole horrendous affair. I can imagine the glee on the faces of the likes of Zuckerberg and Bezos, as their platforms are regularly lauded on the news at the moment for bringing people and communities together. As someone who has fought internet addiction for years and has slowly made some progress, the sudden lurch to a vastly more online world, with the likely death of many of the remaining offline shops and services, fills me with dread. All my classes are now online with mandatory attendance. Hours every day. And so why not a bit of YouTube? Reddit? NetFlix? I recognise this might sound churlish when people are dying in their scores of thousands. Reducing that by any means is the most important thing. But I hope that a life outside of the internet is still possible, when this is done.
  • »28.03.20 - 20:57
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1070 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    @amigadave

    Well, sitting here with the fevers, dry-cough and a slight ache in my lower throat and lungs (not as in pain, but more like "I sense them" being there. Normally you don't think about your lungs, they're just there doing their job, if you know what I mean, you never notice them or think about them). A bit like the flu perhaps, which it could very well be. A very mild flu in that case (which I can't remember ever having, my flu's has been "binary" - either it's not there at all or it's there in full effect).

    No way for me to know if it's covid, the flu or something else, since Sweden (for the last two weeks or so) has completely stopped testing "normal" people with symptoms. In the beginning, before the outbreak turned domestic, they were very active in testing and back-tracing people. But that was when they still fought to prevent an outbreak within the country, back when all cases were "imported" ones. Since then the focus has shifted. Now they are only testing people with *severe* symptoms, people from high-risk groups and hospital personnel. The rest of us with symptoms are simply recommended to assume that *it is* in fact covid and therefore practice all necessary self-isolation and to stay at home, riding it out. Come back to the health care system only if you get trouble breathing, otherwise simply stay at home and let them focus on the people who really needs attention. I'm about to turn 45 years old and not in any particular high risk group, so I suppose that's what I'll do. Stay at home until the symptoms are gone or I get trouble breathing. There is nothing to do about it anyway. It seems like the younger you are, the less risk of getting serious symptoms. Some people have had the disease and hardly even noticed. I heard. I listen to that. ;-)

    Not doing broad testing anymore also means that we have no way of knowing the number of infected people, because there is no meaningful statistics. There are statistics of people receiving intensive care treatment of course, and of deceased. I suppose they have other ways of getting a broad picture, like sick leave statistics, statistics of calls and inquires to the medical advisory services, etc. All in all they seem to be of the opinion that Sweden now stands just below the "explosive" growth pace in the well-known envelope, while statistics over the infected almost seems to flatten out.

    Sweden has taken quite a different route compared to most other countries in this. No longer any testing other than of patients with severe conditions or people from high-risk groups. No closed borders, no closed airports or harbors, all trains, buses, mass transit etc still going as usual. No screening of travelers. No travel bans, only recommendations not to travel to certain places if not necessary. No new, special laws for authorities to control the population. No mobilization. There has been a ban of indoor gatherings larger than 500 people, in some other countries it's like 200, 100, 20, 10, 8, 5 (Germany I heard has as of today a max gathering of 2(!) people!). Schools are open, and the government and disease control authorities are actively defending this decision, which is broadly questioned by the public since everyone is watching the news about how other countries acts. But the rationale is that children and the youth, especially at the lower ages, are statistically not in any danger from covid, maybe they don't even spread it much, and the overall effect a school closure would have on the society at large would be devastating, where many parents (including people working in the health care system) would need to go home to look after their children instead. But since Wednesday all high schools and universities has transitioned to distance learning. But all lower grade schools and daycare is still open like normal. Had this virus been like sars (which affected children more than old people), things would most certainly be completely different.

    The whole Swedish approach rests on people's willingness to *volunteer* in slowing down the outbreak by self-isolation. Work from home if you can. Etc. It's a very much debated policy though. People are looking at the rather authoritative measures taken by other countries and question if our authorities are really doing enough. But the government persist, they say it's all about doing *the right* things, and not doing things just for the looks of it that cause damage to the society and economy without really affecting the outbreak very much. Closing schools is deemed being such a thing. I suppose we'll see when it's all over who were right?

    Something that *has been* done in Sweden, is a change in the sickness benefit rules. We have many tax-financed benefits in Sweden compared to the USA. Normally, when you call in sick and stay at home from work, you will have to endure one qualifying day of sickness without pay. After that you get 80% of your salary. Only after a week a doctor needs to check you up (doesn't cost anything of course, other than some $10 reception fee or whatever it is now) to determine if you qualify for further paid sick leave, or if you are well enough to go back to work. With the new temporary rules, the moment *anyone* feels *any kind* of symptom (cough, fevers, or whatever, even very, very slightly) you are simply *assumed* to leave work immediately, go directly home and isolate yourself from society to the best of your abilities, and you will get 80% of your salary for two weeks, no questions asked whatsoever! After two weeks, you must see a doctor (if you haven't needed one earlier of course). I believe this will make the world of difference. Self-isolation will be the only way to slow this outbreak down enough for the hospitals to cope until the population reaches flock-immunity and/or a vaccine gets developed (a tested, safe, commercial vaccine produced in volume may still be years away, so that's nothing to rely on at this moment). This policy (making it possible for people to stay at home) I think will be much more effective than calling out the national guard on the streets etc. It's painful to see the situation many people are in the US, people not being able to stay at home if they are sick during normal conditions. It is my understanding that many people (even senior citizens) are working more or less for tip in the service industry like tourism, in bars, restaurants and diners etc, people with zero economic margins in life and who will stand without any income at all if they don't work a day. So they will go to work even though feeling ill, because they have no real alternative option. Many of them comes in contact with huge amount of people through their work as well. This could be very problematic for the US IMHO. You risk being struck very hard this time by your lack of social safety net. Time will tell.

    I work as a high school teacher, hence I meet many people as well on a daily basis, and I actually kind of *expected* to catch the bug. Schools *are* notorious in disease spreading, every parent probably have experience of this when it comes to the flu or common cold seasons. Anyway, I'm staying at home now. My 7 year old son and 5 year old daughter is at home with me. They both have a slight dry-cough, like something irritating them in the throat, though no fever or anything else. They are full of energy. I take comfort in the assumption that children will hardly be noticing this outbreak. My wife is also a school teacher, still no cold or flu symptoms. She is very worried though, which I think many people are these days. And there is a psychological side to all of this as well. It's hard to dodge the news, and the feeling that everything is spinning out of control. Many people are feeling bad about it. Personally I almost hope I have actually caught the bug and not just the flu. It would be nice to get it over with and be done with it. Preferably now, instead of when the hospitals run out of ventilators. And if whatever I am feeling now is as bad as it gets, then it's perfectly OK I would say. They say that most people will experience it as a flu or even less. Which is tolerable. And when we reach flock-immunity, this will protect the elderly and high risk groups, probably long before any vaccine is developed, tested to be safe and then mass-produced.

    The real blow will be to the economy. It's already a fact, but we may not have seen the bottom by far yet. This is crippling to all small businesses. Restaurants and store owners, who overnight had their entire business erased. Nobody going out to restaurants, bars, clubs. Nobody shops, other than groceries. They have had their legs completely swept away by this, and they will land on their heads. Hard. This will change a lot. E-commerce has been pushing normal stores to the side for a long time. A process that could be fast forwarded by this outbreak by a magnitude. This blow could be one single spine-cracker that will cripple normal stores and malls forever. Changing the trade industry and in a way the world as we know it.




    Hope you and your family aren't suffering too much.

    Saw this article about the science behind Sweden's approach.

    https://www-thelocal-se.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.thelocal.se/20200328/explaining-the-science-behind-swedens-relaxed-coronavirus-approach/amp
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  • »29.03.20 - 10:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2634 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:

    Hope you and your family aren't suffering too much.


    Thanks. I believe I could have felt a peak during Saturday night when going to sleep. Really coughed a lot, pointless dry-cough that gave no relief, and there was a noticeable discomfort in my chest that couldn’t be ignored. Didn’t have trouble to breathe but at that point it for some reason felt like a plausible next step. Was a bit worried actually. But since then things have improved. So maybe I’m recovering. Kids seems to be better as well, cough less often now they are full of energy.

    Quote:

    Saw this article about the science behind Sweden's approach.

    https://www-thelocal-se.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.thelocal.se/20200328/explaining-the-science-behind-swedens-relaxed-coronavirus-approach/amp



    Yeah, they have now reduced max crowds from 500 to 50. The reasons they didn’t want to go further was explicitly to be able to keep the elementary schools and daycare open.

    They have also increased the paid sick-leave: Now every working citizen can go home at first symptom and stay home for 21 days and receive 80% of your salary, no questions asked. No need for a doctor to examine you for the money payout during the first 21 days. Same if your kid is sent home from school with symptoms (or other illness), just go home and stay home, and 80% of your paycheck will come.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »30.03.20 - 06:55
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2703 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:

    Hope you and your family aren't suffering too much.


    Thanks. I believe I could have felt a peak during Saturday night when going to sleep. Really coughed a lot, pointless dry-cough that gave no relief, and there was a noticeable discomfort in my chest that couldn’t be ignored. Didn’t have trouble to breathe but at that point it for some reason felt like a plausible next step. Was a bit worried actually. But since then things have improved. So maybe I’m recovering. Kids seems to be better as well, cough less often now they are full of energy.

    Quote:

    Saw this article about the science behind Sweden's approach.

    https://www-thelocal-se.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.thelocal.se/20200328/explaining-the-science-behind-swedens-relaxed-coronavirus-approach/amp



    Yeah, they have now reduced max crowds from 500 to 50. The reasons they didn’t want to go further was explicitly to be able to keep the elementary schools and daycare open.

    They have also increased the paid sick-leave: Now every working citizen can go home at first symptom and stay home for 21 days and receive 80% of your salary, no questions asked. No need for a doctor to examine you for the money payout during the first 21 days. Same if your kid is sent home from school with symptoms (or other illness), just go home and stay home, and 80% of your paycheck will come.




    Glad you are starting to feel better, and most importantly, your children did not have any severe symptoms. That is one of a parents greatest fear, that their children will suffer something that the parents have little to no control in helping relieve the suffering.

    The government plan to pay 80% of everyone's salaries for 21 days is very generous, does that include everyone, or just people who are under some set maximum salary amount, so that the rich, or very well paid people are not also getting paid? I can't imagine the Swedish government paying 80% of some CEO's salary, who makes several hundreds of dollars per hour, or even per day. In the USA, Trump and the Congress has approved a one time payment of about $1,200 to everyone who makes under a certain amount, but I have not looked into it to see if it applies to retired people like me. I sort of doubt it, as my income has not been affected by the closing of many businesses. This "gift" of $1,200 should only be given to people who can't work, IMHO, to help them out until a more comprehensive plan can be implemented to help the millions who are losing their jobs, or business owners who have had to shut down. Many millions of people have already applied for unemployment benefits.

    Hopefully, within the next few weeks we will all see the number of new cases of COVID-19 begin to go down, and the increased testing in the USA will allow more people to go back to work, with modified rules in effect to keep everyone safe.

    Really glad to read that you are okay, and your family as well. Did your wife ever show any symptoms?
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »30.03.20 - 16:57
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2634 from 2003/2/24
    @amigadave

    Yes there is indeed a max limit to the amount you get, far from everyone gets 80% (indeed not the rich CEO’s ;-)), I should perhaps have mentioned that. Right now the SEK is extraordinarily weak to the USD (as well as to the EUR), but by more “normal” exchange rates the cap in absolute amounts should measure slightly below $100 USD per day. The percentage or cap level itself isn’t the new thing, that’s the normal level of “sick salary” as we call it (it’s also the same money you get per day when staying at home with your sick kids younger than 12 years old, which is an unquestionable right as a parant of any gender, as well as what you get the first 390 days (could be split by mother/father, and prolonged by lowering daily amount to, say, 75% per day for the parent staying at home) after having a newborn or adoptive child (counted by weekdays (5 days per week, not 7)) and after that you get 90 more days at ridiculously low rate).

    What’s new here is the fact that they dropped the first qualifying day of sickness *without* pay (thus lowering the threshold *considerably* IMHO to go home *at first noticeably symptom*) and that they have prolonged the time until you need a doctor to verify your illness for further payments up to 21 days (no questions asked). But you couldn’t of course translate this money figure straight off to American standards, because our costs of living is very much higher due to very high taxes, including a 25% VAT on many (but not all) goods. But the important part is that most peoples personal economies are kind of *tuned* so that you could get by without greater efforts for a shorter period of time with “sick salary”. Just cut back on the the restaurant visits that month. ;-)

    Anyway, this was among the first and earliest responses the Swedish authorities made in our local corona outbreak. But maybe it was what meant the most? The idea was to make it easy for people to *take personal responsibility* for *our common* problem. As mentioned in other posts above there are many things they haven’t done yet, like shutting down schools. Believe me, this has been heavily debated. But the official line is that actions like that early on might have been a cosmetic sign of political strength, but it was deemed to have big negative impact on society (without actually affecting the outbreak much), including the healthcare system, where nurses and doctors would have been forced to leave work in order to take care of their own kids at home (the traditional help from grandparents being a huge *NO*, since they are in the high risk group that needs to be protected), thus reducing the capacity of hospitals when capacity would be needed the most. The authorities also factored in that reducing people’s liberties *early on* would reduce the populations willingness to volunteer and to cooperate when it was needed the most. The fear has been that after a few couple of weeks of curfew, people will have had it and start doing all kinds counterproductive stuff.

    Honestly, the Swedish health care system wasn’t ready, not prepared. There has been a race. Extra help from volunteering retired doctors and nurses, as well as from med students. All planned non-critical surgeries has been delayed. Two military field hospitals has been deployed (not yet used). I saw on the news that (now unemployed) aircraft cabin service personnel are being quick-schooled into simpler health care work. Automotive industry workers has been redirected into ventilator production. Clothing companies like H&M producing protective gear. Etc.

    The goal of all efforts has been to “flatten the envelope”, to *delay* (not to prevent) the peak in order for the health care system to cope.

    There is a delay of some 14 days of every action, and it’s still too early to draw any conclusions from the last 4-5 days of rather positive developments, but for whatever it means, this was from the news today:

    (Click!)


    (Edit: The source of info at the lower right reads: "John Hopkins University")

    Y-axis: "Antal döda/miljon invånare" = "Number of deceased/millions of citizens"
    X-axis: "Antal dagar" = "Number of days"

    "döda" = "dead"
    "dag" = "day"

    "Italien" = "Italy"
    "Spanien" = "Spain"
    "Tyskland" = "Germany"
    "Sverige" = "Sweden"

    It was also said that *about now* will be the most effective time to add more offensive actions. Preparations has been made, including to shut down schools.

    (Edit #2: Thanks for your concerns about my family! We are all OK. :-))

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma 31.03.2020 - 04:08 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »31.03.20 - 02:24
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  • rob
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 128 from 2008/7/22
    I think some of you guys have been unduly harsh on Trump. His presidency has had a great impact on improving the health of the nation. Just think of all those morbidly obese feminists that went out on marches after he won.
  • »01.04.20 - 20:50
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 728 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    I think some of you guys have been unduly harsh on Trump. His presidency has had a great impact on improving the health of the nation. Just think of all those morbidly obese feminists that went out on marches after he won.


    And now he's killed hundreds of thousands of people. What an encore.
  • »01.04.20 - 22:38
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1070 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    I think some of you guys have been unduly harsh on Trump. His presidency has had a great impact on improving the health of the nation. Just think of all those morbidly obese feminists that went out on marches after he won.


    Having to look at those horrible slobs probably caused a few heart attacks though. ;)
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  • »02.04.20 - 14:45
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 728 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    12 million unemployed in USA. That's got to hurt.

    The corporations and the right wing kept claiming that job insecurity and gig work was good for business and good for employment rates, but it turned out so fragile that a couple of weeks of lockdown utterly shattered it.

    Pity Sanders stepped down. Seems what the US needs right now is a hefty dose of socialism.
  • »09.04.20 - 16:48
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1392 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    I think some of you guys have been unduly harsh on Trump. His presidency has had a great impact on improving the health of the nation. Just think of all those morbidly obese feminists that went out on marches after he won.


    I'm not getting into politics here, but that comment made me LOL.
  • »09.04.20 - 16:51
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  • tom
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    tom
    Posts: 147 from 2003/7/22
    From: Heesch, The Ne...
    Hi all,

    here in the Netherlands we are everytime astonished if we read some of the words/tweets of president Trump. We hardly can take him/his words serious. We know we have to take him serious because he is the president of the US, but it is very hard.
    The Netherlands is far away from the US and oke, perhaps we can be 'second best'.
    See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELD2AwFN9Nc

    regards, Tom
  • »09.04.20 - 20:17
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 728 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Not even the Americans are listening to Trump. When it comes to a source of unadulterated, down-to-earth information and advice, they're all tuning into Andrew Cuomo, the governor of New York state.

    Half the country may hate his politics, but he's shown true leadership while the Chump-in-Chief struggles cluelessly and rants on Twitter.
  • »09.04.20 - 20:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2634 from 2003/2/24
    Well, three weeks has passed, having entered the fourth, and all my symptoms being pretty much gone except the “feeling” in my lungs. Took longer than I expected. My kids are perfectly well now, no coughing, wife still not showing any symptoms at all. Women seems to be the “winners” in this for some reason, statistics over here shows 76% of patients in intensive care being men. Turns out that many infected women doesn’t show any symptoms at all. That has turned out to be a problem over here, since a majority of nurses in health care and elderly care are women, and because of the official guidelines that everyone should go to work unless you are showing symptoms in combination with relatively few tests of the disease and a general lack of protection gear, there has been spread of the disease in areas where it absolutely shouldn’t have been. Also because of relatively few tests being done, you easily get a surreal feeling when the news are reporting figures of confirmed cases that are *very* low, while at the same time you see people and families all around you get sick. Doesn’t match. It has been a period of much worries and a lot of emotions for me (like for everyone I suppose). The most prominent emotion is probably anger.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/10/europe/sweden-lockdown-turmp-intl/index.html
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »10.04.20 - 09:26
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2703 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Well, three weeks has passed, having entered the fourth, and all my symptoms being pretty much gone except the “feeling” in my lungs. Took longer than I expected. My kids are perfectly well now, no coughing, wife still not showing any symptoms at all. Women seems to be the “winners” in this for some reason, statistics over here shows 76% of patients in intensive care being men. Turns out that many infected women doesn’t show any symptoms at all. That has turned out to be a problem over here, since a majority of nurses in health care and elderly care are women, and because of the official guidelines that everyone should go to work unless you are showing symptoms in combination with relatively few tests of the disease and a general lack of protection gear, there has been spread of the disease in areas where it absolutely shouldn’t have been. Also because of relatively few tests being done, you easily get a surreal feeling when the news are reporting figures of confirmed cases that are *very* low, while at the same time you see people and families all around you get sick. Doesn’t match. It has been a period of much worries and a lot of emotions for me (like for everyone I suppose). The most prominent emotion is probably anger.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/10/europe/sweden-lockdown-turmp-intl/index.html


    I'm glad to read that you and your family have recovered with no serious symptoms that lingered. It may take some time for your own lungs to recover from the attack they endured from the virus. Some patients in the USA have reported coughing up necrotic lung tissue, after their own recovery from COVID-19.

    The next few weeks in Sweden will decide if their government's decisions were wise, or folly that will cause hundreds, if not thousands of unnecessary deaths. I think the next 4 to 6 weeks will be the worst for the USA, but I hope that after that, we will see more containment of the virus, as the slow response of our government to get more testing available will finally allow us to diagnose and isolate more people that have the virus, and warn those they have been in contact with the previous week or two, to self isolate, until they are sure they are not carrying the virus to others.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »10.04.20 - 16:11
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  • rob
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 128 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Well, three weeks has passed, having entered the fourth, and all my symptoms being pretty much gone except the “feeling” in my lungs.


    It might be worth considering having a lung capacity test sometime in the near future in case permanent damage may have been caused.
  • »17.04.20 - 01:07
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2703 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Well, three weeks has passed, having entered the fourth, and all my symptoms being pretty much gone except the “feeling” in my lungs.


    It might be worth considering having a lung capacity test sometime in the near future in case permanent damage may have been caused.


    I've been hesitant to type these words, but I'm not sure that I could survive this virus, given my current age and Asthma condition. My significant other (a lovely woman I met last year) and I have been as careful as we can be, staying home as much as possible, and trying to disinfect everything we get from the mail box, and grocery store, before we bring it into the house. But there is no telling where we might pick up this virus from, as it seems to stay alive a long time on common surfaces. I won't feel safe for probably at least the next 9 to 12 months, or until a reliable vaccine can be found and tested.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »17.04.20 - 14:30
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