Vampire FAQ and what is left of AROS-OS3 links
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 460 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Hi dear Amigans,

    I know here is a low priority and interesting to few, but took endavour to update Vamp FAQ
    with deadline by team.

    Its WIP, mostly my answers, and collected info from forums.

    DOC version, free to comment, request to edit
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Gs60MmNrgDUuq-QHHwdtQzwSB9y3y9EE

    ODT
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aYwunmTwB1GzETtQdxJZmUus-foTqU3R

    PDF
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZVfghiRdd0bGFqCKC9hvpt2cMg8C9vFp

    Needs:

    - Proofreading by native English speakers and sentence rework :)
    - Looking for more questions and improved answers
    - More updates to links as resources, as I would love to show the world what is left
    of OS3 AROS arena

    - Suggestions?

    Mind that its WIP and NOT official until given to team for final edit and publishing (early Feb 2020)

    Thank you, all contributors will be signed.

    [ Edited by vox 06.01.2020 - 09:14 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »06.01.20 - 08:09
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    vampire cpu is not evolution of original 68k, it was made from scratch.
    68060 with fast RAM is still faster than vampire cpu.
    vampire cpu is not 100% compatible with 68k.
    mmu tools stil are not public available.
  • »06.01.20 - 09:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10759 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > vampire cpu is not evolution of original 68k, it was made from scratch.

    ...as was the 68060, for instance.

    > 68060 with fast RAM is still faster than vampire cpu.

    Benchmarks and user reports indicate otherwise.
  • »06.01.20 - 10:20
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  • MorphOS Developer
    zukow
    Posts: 525 from 2005/2/9
    From: Poland
    I have Vampire2 in my A500 but seeing how little software were done for it i think that Mediator+PPC on PCI card is better option for big Amigas. Everything may change when Warp060 accelerators will be ready.
  • »06.01.20 - 10:40
    Profile Visit Website
  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1190 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    This is a MorphOS forum. While off-topic discussions have traditionally been tolerated, this stuff is really getting out of hand.

    If this is now being used as a platform for unpaid Vampire ads, which cannot run MorphOS whatsoever, I think some changes might be in order.
  • »06.01.20 - 10:41
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 460 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    vampire cpu is not evolution of original 68k, it was made from scratch.
    68060 with fast RAM is still faster than vampire cpu.
    vampire cpu is not 100% compatible with 68k.
    mmu tools stil are not public available.




    Your mental issues have been adressed in last part of FAQ
    under "pancakes".

    Please read them first before sounding like broken record.

    FAQ was made both for customers, potential customers and mumbo-jumbo makers
    hot air sellers.

    I wonder how would AmigaOne (e.g. my PA Semi) pass the same test

    - Not evolution of m68l defenetely
    - Slower RAM and mem controller then V4
    - Not compatibile at all, Petunia does not emulate chipset
    - No MMU tools publicly avail
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »06.01.20 - 11:19
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 460 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    This is a MorphOS forum. While off-topic discussions have traditionally been tolerated, this stuff is really getting out of hand.

    If this is now being used as a platform for unpaid Vampire ads, which cannot run MorphOS whatsoever, I think some changes might be in order.


    I have made a clear FAQ aid request. There is no intention to turn it to war.

    No more public posts, those who want to help can PM me or e-mail me jahdeliverus@gmail.com

    Hope that is acceptable, please close the thread, without deletions.

    P.S.
    MorphOS is mentioned in FAQ

    Quote:

    zukow wrote:
    I have Vampire2 in my A500 but seeing how little software were done for it i think that Mediator+PPC on PCI card is better option for big Amigas. Everything may change when Warp060 accelerators will be ready.



    There is a FAQ setion that has 080-MMX m68k native s/w.

    Au contraire, I have seen more m68k production for 060 RTG level since Vamp appeared.
    And I dont see WarpUp, PowerUp or even OS4 library growing.

    [ Edited by vox 06.01.2020 - 12:24 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »06.01.20 - 11:22
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > vampire cpu is not evolution of original 68k, it was made from scratch.
    ...as was the 68060, for instance.



    Prove it.

    68060 was made by Motorola by the same team that made former Motorola 68k cpu.

    > 68060 with fast RAM is still faster than vampire cpu.

    Quote:

    Benchmarks and user reports indicate otherwise.


    Apollo/Natami/Vampire Team benchmarks?
  • »06.01.20 - 11:44
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    On my new better Amiga ppc works everything what I used on my 1200. So it is compatible.
    As I wrote on pm on aw vox your problems was your lack of experience with good old ModePro.
    gdb is also available for years.


    [ Edited by ppcamiga1 06.01.2020 - 11:47 ]
  • »06.01.20 - 11:47
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 460 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    On my new better Amiga ppc works everything what I used on my 1200. So it is compatible.
    As I wrote on pm on aw vox your problems was your lack of experience with good old ModePro.
    gdb is also available for years.



    And you used only WB RTG games I pressume?

    No, screen promotion does not always help. I tried every advice I could get on
    Amiga Intution, but m68k compatibility has not increased. Contrary it has decreased
    from OS 4.0 Classic to OS 4.1 FE u1 Enhancer 1.3

    Simply, AEON or Hype did nothing to increase Classic compatibility,
    community did OS4 JIT. And its one of few PA Semi Altivec optimized pieces of code.
    In the beginning non JIT OS4 UAE could run just A500 titles.

    In LW, for example, you cant see preview since its chipset based.

    I have prepaid OS 4.2 license and paid x1000 dearly to use Libre office and Timberwolf, promised at x1000 launch.

    x1000 came with copied CD (no original), in case generic box with b/w photocopied manual.
    In long time I have not seen such un-pro package. AmigaKit did not even know which mem modules
    were included, had to open to see that. And so on ...

    Also, x1000 AEON and AmigaKit break EU customer laws by providing only 1 year return to base warranty, which is lower then law requires.

    What you forget is that FPGA is not carved in stone: situation improves as we speak,
    while badly designed and supported boards, remain so.

    In the end, market will say it word, as well as community.

    End of all comms, phasers down, warp back to FAQ :)

    [ Edited by vox 06.01.2020 - 13:35 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »06.01.20 - 12:28
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    dear vox on Amiga Os 4.x you can use this patch:

    http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=graphics/raytrace/lightwave_rtg_patch.lha


    [ Edited by ppcamiga1 06.01.2020 - 12:46 ]
  • »06.01.20 - 12:45
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 460 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    otherwise.

    > Apollo/Natami/Vampire Team benchmarks?

    No, user benchmarks.


    Sysinfo on x15 v4 core
    http://www.apollo-core.com/gfx/V4-SysInfo-SA_6619df_x15r.png

    PC Task x86 emu
    http://www.apollo-core.com/gfx/x86power.gif

    P96 speed
    http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=2¬e=14103

    Mem speed (I benchmarked x1000 against)

    VAMPIRE-2 reaches with LONG memory access now
    530 MB/sec READ
    660 MB/sec WRITE speed.

    Using AMIGA program BUSTEST
    Download it from AMINET here: EXTERNAL LINK
    AFAIK VAMPIRE outclasses here every other 68K and PPC AMIGA system,
    including latest 2 GHz X5000 and 2.7 GHZ G5 MACs.







    AMIGA BUSTEST - READL Score
    ------------------------------------------

    VAMPIRE 2 529.5 MB/sec (world record!)

    x1000 AMIGA-1 PA6T 1800 MHz 285.6 MB/sec
    MOS IBook PPC G4 1400 MHz 185.4 MB/sec
    MOS MacMini PPC G4 1500 MHz 184.3 MB/sec
    OS4 SAM PPC 460 1100 MHz 109.7 MB/sec
    OS4 SAM PPC 440 667 MHz 91.1 MB/sec
    OS4 Peg2 PPC G4 1000 MHz 80.6 MB/sec

    CyberStormPPC 68060@50 55.1 MB/sec
    Apollo 1240 68040@40 47.8 MB/sec
    FPGA ARCADE 29.0 MB/sec
    Blizzard 1230 68030@50 24.3 MB/sec
    Typhoon MK2 68030@40 18.8 MB/sec
    AMIGA 4000 68040@25 11.5 MB/sec
    AMIGA 1200 ACA 1220 10.9 MB/sec
    Zeus 68000 50 Mhz 9.1 MB/sec


    Thanks for reminding me to add performance section PPC Amiga :)
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »06.01.20 - 13:22
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10759 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I have Vampire2 in my A500 but seeing how little software
    > were done for it i think that Mediator+PPC on PCI card is
    > better option for big Amigas.

    I think there is more m68k software using AMMX than WarpOS/WarpUP software using AltiVec ;-)

    > Everything may change when Warp060 accelerators will be ready.

    How so?
  • »06.01.20 - 13:25
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10759 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I wonder how would [...] my PA Semi [...] pass the same test
    > [...]
    > - Slower RAM and mem controller then V4

    PA6T on X1000 has actual memory performance of 2.7...4.0 GB/s (depending on chunk size and access type) according to RAGEMEM benchmark. What's the actual memory performance on Vampire V4? You quoted ≈0.5...≈0.7 GB/s for Vampire V2 in comment #13, so less than a fifth of PA6T performance. Is Vampire V4 really that faster?
    (Btw, your quoted ≈0.3 GB/s for PA6T is measured with an m68k program, so that's the memory performance of the m68k emulation running on PA6T, not that of the PA6T itself.)
  • »06.01.20 - 13:47
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10759 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I dont see [...] OS4 library growing.

    A look at os4depot.net indicates otherwise.
  • »06.01.20 - 14:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10759 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Hype did nothing to increase Classic compatibility, community did OS4 JIT.

    Petunia has been part of OS4 since AmigaOS 4.0 Prerelease Update #4 in 2006.

    > And its one of few PA Semi Altivec optimized pieces of code.

    At least with regard to Petunia, I don't think this claim makes any sense.

    > I [...] paid x1000 dearly to use Libre office and Timberwolf,
    > promised at x1000 launch.

    Timberwolf you got, and LibreOffice was first announced by A-Eon 9 months after commercial X1000 launch.
  • »06.01.20 - 14:31
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> vampire cpu is not evolution of original 68k, it was made from scratch.

    >> ...as was the 68060, for instance.

    > Prove it.

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&start=702



    You do not prove that 68060 was made from scratch by different people than original 68k team that know every detail of 68k.
    What You wrote is that there was optimisation of part of 68060, this is very different from made everything from scratch by different people.

    Quote:

    No, user benchmarks.


    Do they compare vampire with 68060 with 100 MHz RAM or only poor Amiga cards with 15 MHz RAM?
  • »06.01.20 - 14:35
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10759 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Using AMIGA program BUSTEST [...]
    > AFAIK VAMPIRE outclasses here every [...] PPC AMIGA system,
    > including latest 2 GHz X5000 and 2.7 GHZ G5 MACs.
    >
    > AMIGA BUSTEST - READL Score
    > ------------------------------------------
    > [...]
    > x1000 AMIGA-1 PA6T 1800 MHz 285.6 MB/sec
    > MOS IBook PPC G4 1400 MHz 185.4 MB/sec
    > MOS MacMini PPC G4 1500 MHz 184.3 MB/sec
    > OS4 SAM PPC 460 1100 MHz 109.7 MB/sec
    > OS4 SAM PPC 440 667 MHz 91.1 MB/sec
    > OS4 Peg2 PPC G4 1000 MHz 80.6 MB/sec

    Please keep in mind that these are m68k emulation results, not PPC-native results.
  • »06.01.20 - 14:39
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10759 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>>> vampire cpu is not evolution of original 68k, it was made from scratch.

    >>>> ...as was the 68060, for instance.

    >>> Prove it.

    >> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&start=702

    > You do not prove that 68060 was made from scratch by different people
    > than original 68k team

    I didn't claim it was made by different people. There likely were some overlappings in the 68040 and 68060 design teams. One and the same people can very well do different from-scratch implementations of the same specification.

    > What You wrote is that there was optimisation of part of 68060

    You do not seem to understand the difference between a microcoded microarchitecture and a hardwired microarchitecture. This is not really about optimization but about a different approach to microarchitectural design.

    >> No, user benchmarks.

    > Do they compare vampire with 68060 with 100 MHz RAM
    > or only poor Amiga cards with 15 MHz RAM?

    They compare with what's available on different 68060 cards.
  • »06.01.20 - 14:48
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 201 from 2015/8/23
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    I didn't claim it was made by different people. There likely were some overlappings in the 68040 and 68060 design teams. One and the same people can very well do different from-scratch implementations of the same specification.



    So You have no proof that 68k team at Motorola made everything from scratch instead of use parts of older design to save time and money.

    Quote:


    You do not seem to understand the difference between a microcoded microarchitecture and a hardwired microarchitecture. This is not really about optimization but about a different approach to microarchitectural design.



    This is your opinion based on nothing. You exaggerate change of part of cpu.
    It is just change of part of cpu nothing more.

    vampire has not any single bit of original 68k cpu. vampire do not share history with 68k.
    vampire was made from scratch by different people than original 68k team at Motorola.
  • »06.01.20 - 15:59
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 460 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    (Btw, your quoted ≈0.3 GB/s for PA6T is measured with an m68k program, so that's the memory performance of the m68k emulation running on PA6T, not that of the PA6T itself.)


    True, but either compile same test to OS4 (and you will get similar results, since its mem test not CPU test) or provide at least 040-FPU binary of ragemem.

    I am sorry, Petunia is very fast JIT and does not have a lot of CPU overhead. That part of OS4 is nicely done, like its MOS counterpart.

    Memory controller depends on paired memory and V4 has increased results due to DDR3 RAM, as well as Igors V1200.
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »06.01.20 - 16:59
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 460 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I dont see [...] OS4 library growing.

    A look at os4depot.net indicates otherwise.


    No, I have been daily fun at it since its creation to 2018.
    and in my exp, its been down since at least 2016.

    Its again 3rd party works and thanks to effort of few dedicated
    contractors and PPC developers (Huno, Daytona ...). But it is not real
    OS team work.

    That way lookinet, Aminet is flourishing equals OS3 is strong.

    AmigaOS 4 free updates and baselines are rare nowadays. MOS is greater there.

    Nuff talk, I have deadline to finish FAQ

    If you have any ideas for as-is FAQ, let me know.

    Above performance will be included.

    > Hype did nothing to increase Classic compatibility, community did OS4 JIT.

    Petunia has been part of OS4 since AmigaOS 4.0 Prerelease Update #4 in 2006.

    I am speaking of UAE OS4 since it is real Amiga compatibility layer in OS4, not Petunia.

    >vampire was made from scratch by different people than original 68k team at Motorola.

    True, but so were AEON boards, Phase 5 boards, Freescale CPUs ...



    [ Edited by vox 06.01.2020 - 18:05 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »06.01.20 - 17:02
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10759 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> your quoted ≈0.3 GB/s for PA6T is measured with an m68k program,
    >> so that's the memory performance of the m68k emulation running
    >> on PA6T, not that of the PA6T itself.)

    > compile same test to OS4

    The bustest archive does not come with source. You may try to run the stream benchmark on your Vampire, which is available natively for m68k, MorphOS and OS4. Stream results for PPC boards running MorphOS or OS4 are widely available.

    > and you will get similar results, since its mem test not CPU test

    No, memory read/write performance very much scales with CPU speed/clock if done by the CPU (which is the case with both bustest, RAGEMEM and stream).

    >> You quoted ≈0.5...≈0.7 GB/s for Vampire V2 in comment #13, so less
    >> than a fifth of PA6T performance. Is Vampire V4 really that faster?

    > Memory controller depends on paired memory and V4 has increased
    > results due to DDR3 RAM, as well as Igors V1200.

    I still doubt that Vampire V4 memory performance sextuples that of Vampire V2.
  • »06.01.20 - 17:17
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