Tabor vs G5
  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 82 from 2015/10/30
    So, if given a choice between a G5 Macpro and a Tabor (if it is ever released) which would be the better performer?
  • »05.09.19 - 20:32
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 68 from 2009/5/6
    Bit of a confusing question there... Apples and oranges here..
    The G5 can't run OS4 and the Tabor can't run MorphOS so no easy way to compare the 2 in a real world setting.
    "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." Quote from Rambo...
  • »05.09.19 - 20:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10539 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > which would be the better performer?

    I can't imagine any performance category where A1222/Tabor would outperform even a 1.6 GHz PowerMac G5.
  • »05.09.19 - 21:06
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 286 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Quote:

    DFergFLA schrieb:
    So, if given a choice between a G5 Macpro and a Tabor (if it is ever released) which would be the better performer?

    Single Core CPU performance would be much worse. Both implement Power ISA v.2.03, but:

    QorIQ P1022 (Tabor)
    2 x 1,067 GHz, 32bit, 32 KiB iCache, 32 KiB dCache, 256 KiB L2-Cache,
    no SIMD
    800 MHz DDR3-RAM, max. bandwith 5,96 GiB/s (single channel?)

    PPC970 (lowest specced G5 avialable)
    1 x 1,600 GHz, 64bit, 64 KiB iCache, 32 KiB dCache, 512 KiB L2-Cache,
    Altivec (SIMD)
    400 MHz DDR-RAM, max. bandwith 6,4 GiB/s (dual channel?)

    As both MorphOS and Amiga OS 4.1 utilize Altivec and only one core it's not the question if the Tabos performs slower but only how much it performs slower. But as Andreas said, there is no direct comparison possible. Linux-wise the Tabor could probably be faster than a single core G5, but loose to any dual core G5.

    The Pro's of the Tabor are a certainly much lower power consumption and a much broader/better range of possible graphic cards (PCIe, also no special Mac-BIOS needed).

    IMHO it is not a tragedy the Tabor is slower compared to a G5. It's purpose has always been that of a relatively cheap entry-level-system, not that of a 'high end' one like the G5 was (klick). If I would want to enter the OS 4.1 world and a X5000 would be too expensive for me I would always choose the Tabor over some Sam440/Sam460/Pegasos/etc.
    Talos II Secure Workstation. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 7,3. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.11 / Gentoo Linux] | A1200. ACA-1233, Indivision AGA Mk2. [Amiga OS 3.2]
  • »06.09.19 - 13:36
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10539 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> As both MorphOS and Amiga OS 4.1 utilize Altivec [...] it's not the question
    >> if the Tabos performs slower but only how much it performs slower.

    > that depends on model according to this posting

    That's what ernsteiswuerfel expressed actually, i.e. that opposed to MorphOS on G5 (as well as OS4 on Nemo/X1000), OS4 on Tabor (as well as on certain other boards like Cyrus/X5000) can't use AltiVec because Tabor's CPU (as well as certain other boards' CPUs like that of Cyrus/X5000) does not have AltiVec.
  • »06.09.19 - 14:58
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10539 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > as Andreas said, there is no direct comparison possible.

    That was outlawal2, actually :-)

    > It's purpose has always been that of a relatively cheap entry-level-system,
    > not that of a 'high end' one like the G5 was (klick).

    Only that the G5 was high-end like 15 years ago and is rather low-end compared to current and cheap x64 desktop offerings, which makes the Tabor/A1222 something like lowest-end ;-)

    > I would always choose the Tabor over some Sam440/Sam460/Pegasos/etc.

    What are Tabor's technical, OS4-relevant advantages over the Sam460ex, again? Anything else than a little better integer performance? I can think of some disadvantages, like worse floating point performance and only one expansion slot.
  • »06.09.19 - 15:30
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 150 from 2015/8/23
    The problem with g5 is noise, I have it but I rarely use it because of noise.
    Tabor may be a lot quiet.
    OpenGL is also advantage of Tabor, MOS still has not decent OpenGL with shaders.
    But G5 has faster cpu.
    It depends on Your needs.
  • »06.09.19 - 16:26
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Amigaharry2
    Posts: 583 from 2010/1/6
    From: EU-Austria (Wien)
    If your G5 is too loud, you may have a problem with fan-calibration (need to calibrate with MAC-ServiceCD). My G5-PowerMac/2.3GHz runs nearly unhearable under MOS. My Zotac-MAC01-Nettop is much louder and even my Peg2 makes more noise.
    1xPeg2, PowerMac G5, PowerbookG4, 2x MacMiniG4, Efika (again), A3000T, A3000D and life is never boring.....
  • »06.09.19 - 16:44
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 82 from 2015/10/30
    Thanks to everybody who responded. I understand better now.
  • »06.09.19 - 17:47
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 286 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf schrieb:
    > as Andreas said, there is no direct comparison possible.

    That was outlawal2, actually :-)

    :-o True.

    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf schrieb:
    > I would always choose the Tabor over some Sam440/Sam460/Pegasos/etc.

    What are Tabor's technical, OS4-relevant advantages over the Sam460ex, again? Anything else than a little better integer performance? I can think of some disadvantages, like worse floating point performance and only one expansion slot.

    I don't expect it to be magnitudes faster than the Sam460ex. But price wise probably the better choice. ;-) People sure do want a lot of money for their used Pegs & Sams.
    Talos II Secure Workstation. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 7,3. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.11 / Gentoo Linux] | A1200. ACA-1233, Indivision AGA Mk2. [Amiga OS 3.2]
  • »06.09.19 - 22:56
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10539 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> What are Tabor's technical, OS4-relevant advantages over the
    >> Sam460ex, again? Anything else than a little better integer
    >> performance? I can think of some disadvantages, like worse
    >> floating point performance and only one expansion slot.

    > I don't expect it to be magnitudes faster than the Sam460ex.

    That much is obvious. Even just one single magnitude faster would put it in POWER9 territory :-) And as I said, it will even be slower in FPU operations (except for code that is natively compiled for the SPE in order to avoid FPU emulation).

    > price wise probably the better choice. ;-)

    I think there have been used Sam460 boards or systems going for same as or less than what new Tabor boards or systems will go for, like this Sam460 board for 300 or 350 EUR.
  • »06.09.19 - 23:53
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  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 433 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    DFergFLA wrote:
    So, if given a choice between a G5 Macpro and a Tabor (if it is ever released) which would be the better performer?


    MacPro in hundred ways, its especially visible in Linux where dual core (even quad core G5 exists)can be used.

    Other problem is Tabor does not exist publicly, outside few people.

    Both more powerful x1000,x5000/020 and even x5000/040 have been tested vs G5 and have failed miserably. One in all, too bad OS4 was not ported to Mac G4 and Mac G5.

    G5 vs x5000
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEjOgpesYuo

    (x5000 quad core 2.2Ghz exists in beta testing too)

    Even just on MacOS X side, Luigi and few Mac PPC users have proven it can be useful even today.
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »08.09.19 - 15:05
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Quote:

    DFergFLA wrote:
    So, if given a choice between a G5 Macpro and a Tabor (if it is ever released) which would be the better performer?


    MacPro in hundred ways


    I must stress one thing: There are no G5 Mac Pros. Just PowerMacs. If DFergFLA buys a Mac Pro to run MorphOS then he will be disappointed. Even the first Macs Pro are Xeon based. You can easily tell a PowerMac G5 from a Mac Pro - the latter's got two optical drive bays.
  • »08.09.19 - 15:44
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10539 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > its especially visible in Linux where dual core
    > (even quad core G5 exists)can be used.

    Tabor is dual-core as well, so that's one of the few categories where there's no difference when comparing Tabor against MorphOS-supported G5 (which is dual-CPU at best).

    > x1000,x5000/020 and even x5000/040 have been tested
    > vs G5 and have failed miserably.

    In certain performance categories, X1000 (memory bandwidth) and X5000 (non-SIMD integer math) are faster than most MorphOS-supported G5 PowerMacs. Tabor on the other hand is slower than even the slowest dual-CPU PowerMac G5 in each and every performance category, and slower than even the slowest PowerMac G5 in almost all performance categories.
  • »08.09.19 - 20:08
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 82 from 2015/10/30
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    Quote:

    DFergFLA wrote:
    So, if given a choice between a G5 Macpro and a Tabor (if it is ever released) which would be the better performer?


    MacPro in hundred ways


    I must stress one thing: There are no G5 Mac Pros. Just PowerMacs. If DFergFLA buys a Mac Pro to run MorphOS then he will be disappointed. Even the first Macs Pro are Xeon based. You can easily tell a PowerMac G5 from a Mac Pro - the latter's got two optical drive bays.


    I may just have the names mixed up. If I do go with a Mac. I will post a link here to get a second opinion before I buy it. My concern now is the reports that a G5 sounds like a jet engine on crack...aka loud.
  • »09.09.19 - 02:03
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 286 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Quote:

    DFergFLA schrieb:
    I may just have the names mixed up. If I do go with a Mac. I will post a link here to get a second opinion before I buy it. My concern now is the reports that a G5 sounds like a jet engine on crack...aka loud.

    True. :-D I had loudness problems with mine (G5 7,3). But applying new thermal paste and doing a fan calibration fixed this for good. The other G5 11,2 I got was silent from the start, but this model is not supported by MorphOS.
    Talos II Secure Workstation. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 7,3. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.11 / Gentoo Linux] | A1200. ACA-1233, Indivision AGA Mk2. [Amiga OS 3.2]
  • »09.09.19 - 12:40
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    DFergFLA wrote:
    My concern now is the reports that a G5 sounds like a jet engine on crack...aka loud.


    Not really. But poorly serviced ones can be a bit noisy.
    If your gfx card is a fanless one then a G5 can be quite silent (if maintained properly and that includes proper thermal calibration and good thermal compound between CPU and heatsink). The water cooled models (2,5 and 2,7 GHz) are more tricky - as the LCS most probably needs an overhaul and not only new thermal grease between CPU and water block - but nevertheless shouldn't be anything near a "jet engine".
  • »09.09.19 - 13:15
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 82 from 2015/10/30
    I will keep that all in mind. I won't be buying a desktop of any kind til December. In the meantime I am getting my Macbook all put back together again and will install MorphOS on that to play with again before I decide if I want to go all in. The rumor, of MorphOS being worked on to go x86_64 gives me hope that the OS will continue. As much as I like Amiga, I feel that an ISA shift will not happen and it will die out slowly.
  • »09.09.19 - 16:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10539 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>> There are no G5 Mac Pros. Just PowerMacs. If DFergFLA buys
    >>>> a Mac Pro to run MorphOS then he will be disappointed.

    >>> I may just have the names mixed up.

    >> [...]

    > I am getting my Macbook all put back together again and will
    > install MorphOS on that

    ;-)
  • »09.09.19 - 16:18
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2601 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    DFergFLA wrote:
    I will keep that all in mind. I won't be buying a desktop of any kind til December. In the meantime I am getting my Macbook all put back together again and will install MorphOS on that to play with again before I decide if I want to go all in. The rumor, of MorphOS being worked on to go x86_64 gives me hope that the OS will continue. As much as I like Amiga, I feel that an ISA shift will not happen and it will die out slowly.


    "MacPro" & "MacBook" are only made with x86, or x64 CPU's, (as Andreas_Wolf keeps pointing out to you), so you probably mean your "PowerBook", which is equipped with a G4 PPC CPU. Most PowerMac's and PowerBook's are compatible with MorphOS, as shown in the list on the official MorphOS website. My 17" PowerBook with 1.67GHz G4 CPU, 2GB RAM, & the high definition 1680x1050 wide screen display is my favorite MorphOS system. I think manufacturers are removing optical drives from laptop computers too soon, specially Apple laptops, which removed them even earlier than most other manufacturers did. I like having the optical drive, plus the 17" PowerBook also gives me a full size keyboard, with number pad, and a nice size display. I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade my 17" G4 PowerBook with a 1920x1080 hd display, or if that would not be a good idea given the limitations of the 128mb VRAM Radeon mobility 9700 video card inside of it? I seem to remember someone doing this conversion, but can't remember where, or if it really was done on a G4 PowerBook.

    [ Edited by amigadave 09.09.2019 - 15:46 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »09.09.19 - 23:44
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    koszer
    Posts: 915 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade my 17" G4 PowerBook with a 1920x1080 hd display, or if that would not be a good idea given the limitations of the 128mb VRAM Radeon mobility 9700 video card inside of it? I seem to remember someone doing this conversion, but can't remember where, or if it really was done on a G4 PowerBook.


    You remember well, I once did such conversion. I took a display from a 17 inch MacBook Pro and replaced the standard (broken) display in a 17 inch PowerBook. There's a whole article about that in an issue 6 of "Amiga NG" Polish magazine (there should be an english version too but I cannot find it ATM). The article will find its way to some publicly available Amiga related portal sooner or later.
  • »10.09.19 - 09:37
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1889 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:

    I think manufacturers are removing optical drives from laptop computers too soon, specially Apple laptops, which removed them even earlier than most other manufacturers did.



    I strongly disagree

    Quote:


    I like having the optical drive, plus the 17" PowerBook also gives me a full size keyboard, with number pad,



    Must be a one of prototype ;)

    Quote:


    and a nice size display. I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade my 17" G4 PowerBook with a 1920x1080 hd display, or if that would not be a good idea given the limitations of the 128mb VRAM Radeon mobility 9700 video card inside of it? I seem to remember someone doing this conversion, but can't remember where, or if it really was done on a G4 PowerBook.


    See below (+ ThePlayer who did it too).

    FullHD is an issue for non silent upgrade MacMinis with just 32MB VRAM, with 128MB one can^H^Hould run 2 of them without ever running into issues.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »10.09.19 - 10:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10539 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Most [...] PowerBook's are compatible with MorphOS

    Actually, MorphOS supports only a miniscule subset of all PowerBooks. It even supports just a small subset of all PPC-based PowerBooks. Even regarding G4-based PowerBooks, only about an half is supported. What's supported most of are the Aluminum G4 PowerBooks.

    > as shown in the list on the official MorphOS website.

    Unfortunately, the requirement mentioned there with regard to supported G4 PowerBooks has always been misleading.

    > the 17" PowerBook also gives me a full size keyboard, with number pad

    I'm with Kronos here ;-)
  • »10.09.19 - 14:57
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2601 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    I wonder if it would be possible to upgrade my 17" G4 PowerBook with a 1920x1080 hd display, or if that would not be a good idea given the limitations of the 128mb VRAM Radeon mobility 9700 video card inside of it? I seem to remember someone doing this conversion, but can't remember where, or if it really was done on a G4 PowerBook.


    You remember well, I once did such conversion. I took a display from a 17 inch MacBook Pro and replaced the standard (broken) display in a 17 inch PowerBook. There's a whole article about that in an issue 6 of "Amiga NG" Polish magazine (there should be an english version too but I cannot find it ATM). The article will find its way to some publicly available Amiga related portal sooner or later.


    You greatly over estimate my memory sir! ;-)

    It was a faint thought in the back of my head that I might have seen some discussion or article about such a conversion. Thanks for pointing out where I might find info about it. I'll have to see if I really want to go through the effort and expense of converting my 17" PowerBook, which I only use for running MorphOS, as I'm not sure if I really need a high resolution than the 1680x1050 display that I have now. If MorphOS was capable of playing the many BluRay movies that I have in my video library, then I would probably go through with such a conversion.

    @kronos & Andreas_Wolf, I was confusing my 17" Dell laptop's keyboard and number pad, with my 17" PowerBook. I probably shouldn't post forum messages when I'm half asleep, but you guys are used to me making lots of mistakes by now.

    [ Edited by amigadave 10.09.2019 - 08:38 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »10.09.19 - 15:58
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