[bounty] Port Ambient together with MUI to Linux
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Kokos
    Posts: 26 from 2009/10/27
    From: Poland
    .,.

    [ Edited by Kokos 19.12.2017 - 07:52 ]
  • »16.12.17 - 08:12
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    eliot
    Posts: 476 from 2004/4/15
    A really interesting bounty.
    I also thought about it some time ago. Having Ambient and MUI on linux means
    Amiga/Morphos feeling without lacking most of the state of the art software.
    Perhaps using zune instead of Mui would be the way to go.


    [ Edited by eliot 16.12.2017 - 08:44 ]
    regards
    eliot
  • »16.12.17 - 08:44
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Kokos
    Posts: 26 from 2009/10/27
    From: Poland
    Hi Eliot!

    Thank you.

    Well, I think we should stay with MUI delivered in MorphOS to keep things simple, consistent and not to depend on too many software providers. It would complicate the process a lot. Also I consider AROS as a research system, always in development, not designed for usual end-user. I think Ambient is already open source but MUI could be still a proprietary and maybe author woludn't like to contribute in this project, then Zune could be a way to go.

    K

    [ Edited by Kokos 16.12.2017 - 10:18 ]
  • »16.12.17 - 09:16
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4692 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Hmm...but still Linux underneath?

    No thanks.

    I'll wait for MorphOS X64, that should be able to run in a VM.
    Then I can just run it concurrently with Windows.

    Since I need Excel (which isn't available under Linux, and the Open Office spreadsheet can't provide full compatibility for) I need Windows, not Linux.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.12.17 - 17:17
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  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 915 from 2004/9/23
    This would not be a port. It would end as a rewrite, because of the so called depedencies.

    When porting FROM linux, ports often fail due missing linker/shared libs like GTK. While Amiga/MorphOS has tons of linux stuff like Freetype. exemul, png, jpeg and millions of other components to work with, ports are impossible due the lack of only a hand full others.

    Well, when porting Ambient and MUI TO linux you have mostly none dependencies to work with. Beside maybe jpeg and png stuff, but even there the more recent ports use less linux stuff and more MorphOS native components.

    Since Ambient is almost using every component available in MorphOS you "simply" have to port all these MorphOS components to Linux first.

    Hence why there is no Ambient port for AmigaOS4! It is because even AmigaOS lacks of many features Ambient utilises. And those Systems are quite close.

    So better keep you money and forget it. Not worth trying.

    [ Edited by geit 16.12.2017 - 17:54 ]
  • »16.12.17 - 17:53
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1009 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    I imagine it'd be comparatively "easier" to port the whole of MorphOS to the Linux kernel instead of Quark than rewrite the whole of MUI and Ambient.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »16.12.17 - 19:48
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1009 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Hmm...but still Linux underneath?

    No thanks.

    I'll wait for MorphOS X64, that should be able to run in a VM.
    Then I can just run it concurrently with Windows.

    Since I need Excel (which isn't available under Linux, and the Open Office spreadsheet can't provide full compatibility for) I need Windows, not Linux.


    Isn't Excel a web app these days?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »16.12.17 - 19:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2504 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    I imagine it'd be comparatively "easier" to port the whole of MorphOS to the Linux kernel instead of Quark than rewrite the whole of MUI and Ambient.


    Yes, I agree.

    And, the proposed bounty sounds to me like a project that would require more than one programmer, working only during their free time, maybe 20 to 30 hours a week maximum. The proposed bounty project seems to be something almost as much work as the port to x64 for the whole MorphOS Dev. Team, but me not being an active advanced programmer, I can't accurately estimate how much actual work is involved in the proposal.

    It also sounds like it might be something that Linux programmers could/would do themselves, if they thought that Ambient and MUI offered features significantly better than existing alternatives.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »16.12.17 - 19:58
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  • fmh
  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    fmh
    Posts: 66 from 2012/8/23
    From: USA
    Sounds like something to this was done for BeOS/Zeta a few years back. Someone skinned BeOS onto Ubuntu. http://www.zevenos.com/

    Personally me being a BeOS user it made using Linux much nicer and made me use Linux more. Was it perfect? No but this was done very well. I used this for many years up until issues I had with updating packages which most likely had nothing to so with the skinning. I'm sure some users will like having the Ambient/MUI skin on Linux and use Linux more but it is not Morphos in the end.
    Macmini G4-1.42, 1GB RAM, MorphOS3.9
  • »17.12.17 - 00:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9936 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I'm sure some users will like having the Ambient/MUI skin on Linux

    As far as I have understood, the proposed bounty is about an actual Ambient/MUI port to Linux, not about a replication as a mere UI skin.
  • »17.12.17 - 12:43
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1778 from 2003/2/24
    Ah it's that time of the year again:

    BRAINFART-SEASON

    Actually it's 3 bounties:

    - OpenSource MUI or reimplement it for Linux

    - Get Ambient to compile&run on top of that

    - Adapt GTK/QT to interpret and use MUI skins

    4 if we count the mandated 3 years support period

    Each would need an at least 5 figure sum to be properly funded......
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »17.12.17 - 13:13
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1849 from 2003/6/4
    A skin of a skinable system would be kind of quadratic circle or so..
    And I personally don't like an OS mimicking (copycat skin) another.

    A port of MUI Ambient to Linux would be ambitious though. But probably not that rewarding. Under the skin it would stay Linux.

    Taking the Linux kernel only for a MorphOS x64 would be another story, but honestly not the story I would like to tell (and using a Linux kernel with Amiga on top is not a new idea anyway).
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »17.12.17 - 13:17
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Kokos
    Posts: 26 from 2009/10/27
    From: Poland
    Hi guys,

    Thanks. Now I know it's more complicated then I thought it is. I'm not a developer (I don't need to be) but for me it sounds logical to migrate to Linux to preserve as PPC hardware will die eventually and using Linux kernel beneath would solve issues with drivers, web browser etc. Of course I know it would mean to leave behind all hard work team spent on MorphOS as it is and many solutions, so it's a dilemma and this is probably not an approach developers would like take on. I'm not here to decide on this I was just asking. Anyway, still it was worth asking, so please keep for yourselves and your families all impolite comments, it was not needed here at all.

    Thanks.
    K
  • »17.12.17 - 15:37
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4692 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Since I need Excel [...] I need Windows, not Linux.

    https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=11


    The 32 bit version included in Office 2016?
    That should work, still as a non-native program the performance might suffer, and its not going to be constantly updated like Office 365.

    I tend to shy away from emulated environments, but since I already mentioned implementing a VM its a fair comparison.

    In reality, I be more likely use my laptop to run Windows while running MorphOS on a separate machine.

    And...if I followed this course, I'd still be stuck trying to adapt to Linux.

    Again, no thanks.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »17.12.17 - 15:39
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1009 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Since I need Excel [...] I need Windows, not Linux.

    https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=11


    The 32 bit version included in Office 2016?
    That should work, still as a non-native program the performance might suffer, and its not going to be constantly updated like Office 365.

    I tend to shy away from emulated environments, but since I already mentioned implementing a VM its a fair comparison.

    In reality, I be more likely use my laptop to run Windows while running MorphOS on a separate machine.

    And...if I followed this course, I'd still be stuck trying to adapt to Linux.

    Again, no thanks.


    WINE Is Not an Emulator Jim, there's no performance loss at all, some things run faster too. 64bit programs work fine too.

    But if you have paid for Office doesn't it work in a browser too now?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »17.12.17 - 16:05
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  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 412 from 2003/8/18
    Is MUI open source?

    I mean: the most recent version that's used in MorphOS.
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »18.12.17 - 14:49
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4692 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Since I need Excel [...] I need Windows, not Linux.

    https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=11


    The 32 bit version included in Office 2016?
    That should work, still as a non-native program the performance might suffer, and its not going to be constantly updated like Office 365.

    I tend to shy away from emulated environments, but since I already mentioned implementing a VM its a fair comparison.

    In reality, I be more likely use my laptop to run Windows while running MorphOS on a separate machine.

    And...if I followed this course, I'd still be stuck trying to adapt to Linux..
    Again, no thanks.


    WINE Is Not an Emulator Jim, there's no performance loss at all, some things run faster too. 64bit programs work fine too.

    But if you have paid for Office doesn't it work in a browser too now?



    According to the current documentation, only the 32 bit version of Excel 2016 works under Wine.
    And yes, I have a separate Office package (not web based) now, but it was downloaded.
    I might be able to find the original install.

    As to "Wine is not an emulator", translator, emulator...whatever, it still doesn't make Windows apps native to Linux.

    In any case, it would still involve adapting to Linux, which is a bit more cumbersome and less intuitive operating system.

    I'd still prefer to stick with Windows and MorphOS.

    I've experimented with Linux frequently since the '90's, and its never been a completely satisfying experience.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »18.12.17 - 15:02
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    polluks
    Posts: 391 from 2007/10/23
    From: Gelsenkirchen,...
    Quote:

    Kronos schrieb:
    Ah it's that time of the year again:

    BRAINFART-SEASON


    indeed :-D :-D
    Pegasos II G4: MorphOS 3.9, Zalman M220W
    Power Mac G3: OSX 10.3 · PowerBook 5,8: OSX 10.5, MorphOS 3.11
  • »18.12.17 - 21:45
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    polluks
    Posts: 391 from 2007/10/23
    From: Gelsenkirchen,...
    Quote:

    Kokos schrieb:
    Hi guys,

    Thanks. Now I know it's more complicated then I thought it is. I'm not a developer (I don't need to be) but for me it sounds logical to migrate to Linux to preserve as PPC hardware will die eventually and using Linux kernel beneath would solve issues with drivers, web browser etc. Of course I know it would mean to leave behind all hard work team spent on MorphOS as it is and many solutions, so it's a dilemma and this is probably not an approach developers would like take on. I'm not here to decide on this I was just asking. Anyway, still it was worth asking, so please keep for yourselves and your families all impolite comments, it was not needed here at all.

    Thanks.
    K


    Your "invention" is called Linux hosted AROS ;-)
    Pegasos II G4: MorphOS 3.9, Zalman M220W
    Power Mac G3: OSX 10.3 · PowerBook 5,8: OSX 10.5, MorphOS 3.11
  • »18.12.17 - 21:49
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1009 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Kokos wrote:
    Hi guys,

    Thanks. Now I know it's more complicated then I thought it is. I'm not a developer (I don't need to be) but for me it sounds logical to migrate to Linux to preserve as PPC hardware will die eventually and using Linux kernel beneath would solve issues with drivers, web browser etc. Of course I know it would mean to leave behind all hard work team spent on MorphOS as it is and many solutions, so it's a dilemma and this is probably not an approach developers would like take on. I'm not here to decide on this I was just asking. Anyway, still it was worth asking, so please keep for yourselves and your families all impolite comments, it was not needed here at all.

    Thanks.
    K



    https://www.aeros-os.org
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »18.12.17 - 22:22
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Kokos
    Posts: 26 from 2009/10/27
    From: Poland
    Thanks Intuition, not quite I hoped for, but better than nothing. I will ask there.

    [ Edited by Kokos 19.12.2017 - 07:54 ]
  • »19.12.17 - 07:54
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  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 412 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:


    No MUI version whatsoever is open source.


    What's the point of this bounty if MUI isn't open source then?

    You'd have to gain access to the sources before doing anything. Good luck with that.

    Good luck with implementing missing functionnalites/fixing Zune if you were to go that road.
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »19.12.17 - 16:04
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