X1000 and A1222
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10542 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > When you compare the X1000 to the X5000, its actually got some advantages
    > (like a lot more PCI-E lanes and much higher video card bandwidth).

    ...and much better memory bandwidth, and AltiVec SIMD :-) And the PA6T's FPU might be stronger than the e5500's, at least per clock. The X5000 excels in integer performance. What else?

    > how many A500 and A600s were sold after the A1200 was introduced?

    At least the A500 (including ECS-based "Plus" model) was discontinued half a year before A1200 introduction.

    > people like us would prefer to spend a extra $1200 and get a system that
    > performs adequately.

    ...or spend next to nothing for a used PPC Mac ;-)
  • »24.09.17 - 01:48
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
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    >...or spend next to nothing for a used PPC Mac ;-)

    Well...my G5s have both cost me $30 and $50 respectively, and I did have to rebuild the cooling system ($5 for four o-rings and you only need two)...so its not nothing ;-), but it IS the best value I've ever had in computer hardware.

    And I've got this 11,2 sitting here humming away running Linux, which it does almost as well as my X64 hardware, which makes the arguments against porting MorphOS to these systems doubly frustrating because its 'low hanging fruit' and it would leap frog us over A-eon's offerings in performance and price (the highest price I've seen for an 11,2, which was completely refurbished, was $300, so we are talking about half the price of a Tabor board alone).



    [ Edited by Jim 23.09.2017 - 22:18 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.09.17 - 03:16
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 286 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    I support Jim's views about the prospects of A1222/Tabor. Especially after I have seen an EFIKA in action (at GamesCon 2017). It's just so *sloooowww*... I mean not MorphOS itself, it runs pretty well and seems well optimized! But as soon you start any kind of application or game which is at least a little demanding in terms of CPU or RAM it crawls. No point in running SDL games, no point in running Battle Squadron, no point in running OWB... IMHO the EFIKA support could be dropped (if this makes sense for the greater good).

    On the other side the SAM460 did well at running games & applications with ease. The only downside is, that it's not for sale any longer... IMHO the Tabor will do very well as SAM/EFIKA replacement, at least that's what people report using it for OS4/Linux. And it's cheaper too.

    The PPC-Apple systems are best at mobility as Cego said. I use my PowerBook G4 much more often than my G5. What I dislike about the PPC-Apples is the "OpenFirmware graphic cards mess". It REALLY is annoying to have to rely on an old OF-capable card if you want to see any boot messages! Maybe this is less of a hassle when you don't use your machine in a Linux dual-boot environment, but if you do it certainly is. Even if you got through the yaboot-bootloader mess it is. I can hardly imagine that getting a proper GPU and using a dual or triple boot environment is that laborious on a SAM/X1000/x5000. ;-)
    Talos II Secure Workstation. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 7,3. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.11 / Gentoo Linux] | A1200. ACA-1233, Indivision AGA Mk2. [Amiga OS 3.2]
  • »24.09.17 - 13:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10542 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > as soon you start any kind of application or game which is at least a little
    > demanding in terms of CPU or RAM it crawls.

    Crawling because of RAM sounds weird. If the amount of RAM is not enough the program shouldn't start at all or just crash, but not crawl. And RAM speed of Efika is not that bad.

    > Tabor will do very well as SAM/EFIKA replacement [...]. And it's cheaper too.

    I'm sure it won't beat the Efika 5200B in price. And we will see if it's cheaper than the Sam440.
  • »24.09.17 - 14:35
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    number6
    Posts: 354 from 2008/8/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > in October 1000 new AmigaOne A1222 boards will be released to the community.

    Hasn't this already been postponed to early 2018? They must be 3 years old by then.

    > Charge those users a $100 license fee

    I wouldn't find it fair to charge them more than Sam460 user (49 EUR).


    In July, 2017 interview Trevor said that he was "hopeful" that there would be an announcement
    by the end of 2017. If I can find anything more recent from the source, I'll post it.

    Source

    #6
  • »24.09.17 - 16:18
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1900 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    ernsteiswuerfel schrieb:
    I support Jim's views about the prospects of A1222/Tabor. Especially after I have seen an EFIKA in action (at GamesCon 2017). It's just so *sloooowww*... I mean not MorphOS itself, it runs pretty well and seems well optimized! But as soon you start any kind of application or game which is at least a little demanding in terms of CPU or RAM it crawls. No point in running SDL games, no point in running Battle Squadron, no point in running OWB... IMHO the EFIKA support could be dropped (if this makes sense for the greater good).

    On the other side the SAM460 did well at running games & applications with ease. The only downside is, that it's not for sale any longer... IMHO the Tabor will do very well as SAM/EFIKA replacement, at least that's what people report using it for OS4/Linux. And it's cheaper too.

    The PPC-Apple systems are best at mobility as Cego said. I use my PowerBook G4 much more often than my G5. What I dislike about the PPC-Apples is the "OpenFirmware graphic cards mess". It REALLY is annoying to have to rely on an old OF-capable card if you want to see any boot messages! Maybe this is less of a hassle when you don't use your machine in a Linux dual-boot environment, but if you do it certainly is. Even if you got through the yaboot-bootloader mess it is. I can hardly imagine that getting a proper GPU and using a dual or triple boot environment is that laborious on a SAM/X1000/x5000. ;-)


    Who cares about efika? It's eol and not wide spread. It has been a fun Board in its time with a pretty good price, but today it's relevance is close to zero.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »24.09.17 - 18:16
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 286 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Quote:

    Zylesea schrieb:
    Who cares about efika? It's eol and not wide spread. It has been a fun Board in its time with a pretty good price, but today it's relevance is close to zero.

    Which was my point too. ;-)

    [ Editiert durch ernsteiswuerfel 24.09.2017 - 20:19 ]
    Talos II Secure Workstation. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 7,3. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.11 / Gentoo Linux] | A1200. ACA-1233, Indivision AGA Mk2. [Amiga OS 3.2]
  • »24.09.17 - 19:19
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    ernsteiswuerfel wrote:
    Quote:

    Zylesea schrieb:
    Who cares about efika? It's eol and not wide spread. It has been a fun Board in its time with a pretty good price, but today it's relevance is close to zero.

    Which was my point too. ;-)

    [ Editiert durch ernsteiswuerfel 24.09.2017 - 20:19 ]


    In my entire time here, I've only been in contact with one Efika user, who has since moved on the a better system.
    At $100, the Efika was a pretty good bargain, but it didn't offer enough memory.
    These day its possible to find G5s for $100 (even the occasional 11,2 ;-) mine was CHEAPER than that).

    Btw - With the 11,2, you install an Apple video card that is compatible with open firmware in the X8 slot, and your better spec PC card in the X16 slot.
    If you really want to get tricky, you set up Linux to use only the higher end card, which you then connect to the DVI or HDMI connector of your monitor, then you connect the Apple card to your VGA (or other available connector).

    Viola, open firmware prompts until Linux initializes the PC card. Its a best of both worlds option.
    So, don't like not having access to open firmware if your using a PC video card?
    There are work-arounds.

    Under MorphOS (were it to be ported to the 11,2), the best Apple card would be something like the Nvidia 6600 (its cheap, and MorphOS won't touch it), then the primary card could be something like the Radeon HD 6750 I've previously mentioned. Again, firmware prompts and a Radeon HD display.

    As to Tabor, its NOT my 'cup of tea', but there's going to be a lot of them floating around, maybe we can lure a few users away from 'the dark side'. ;-)

    [ Edited by Jim 24.09.2017 - 14:54 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.09.17 - 19:49
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 1900 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:


    As to Tabor, its NOT my 'cup of tea', but there's going to be a lot of them floating around, maybe we can lure a few users away from 'the dark side'. ;-)

    [ Edited by Jim 24.09.2017 - 14:54 ]


    i actually do understand your reasoning, but I guess it's easier to get more users by progressing the OS and its applications. MorphOS on ppc and 32 bit and so on is a dead end. I think we only have the option for hop or top. Let's do the inevitable step ASAP and offer a product that has significant added avlue compared to the competion (primarily, but not only, the other Amigaish systems).
    A MorphOS with SMP, 64 bit, 100% resource tracking, maybe MP and a few old things (AHI or so) updated, but still a kept MorphOS/Amiga identity. I really would love if this would go seamless, but it probably will not work. Hence, do the cut now. Yes, it's hurting, it's a sh*tload of work, but postponing the cut will not help - quite the contrary. And hence, don't waste develoipment time on supportimg more ppc hardware (G5 PCIE may be an exception since the port is progressed already and it's the final ppc deskop computer), but go for real progress.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »24.09.17 - 20:08
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2608 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    >...or spend next to nothing for a used PPC Mac ;-)

    Well...my G5s have both cost me $30 and $50 respectively, and I did have to rebuild the cooling system ($5 for four o-rings and you only need two)...so its not nothing ;-), but it IS the best value I've ever had in computer hardware.

    And I've got this 11,2 sitting here humming away running Linux, which it does almost as well as my X64 hardware, which makes the arguments against porting MorphOS to these systems doubly frustrating because its 'low hanging fruit' and it would leap frog us over A-eon's offerings in performance and price (the highest price I've seen for an 11,2, which was completely refurbished, was $300, so we are talking about half the price of a Tabor board alone).




    In the case of the 11.2 G5 PowerMac Quad G5, I think it should have been supported instead of the X5000, but understand why some users prefer to buy new hardware. Myself, I like getting extended use from old things, because I so strongly dislike how most of our societies have become too wasteful, and throw away things that still work perfectly well, just because something a tiny bit better has come along. This is specially true in the computer world, where things improve at such a fast rate, and everyone wants to have the latest and greatest stuff. I guess this is partly why I am still an Amiga user, because I enjoy making it do things it was never designed to do, but make it continue to be useful.

    Given that so little work seems to be needed to complete a version of MorphOS which could support the 11.2 G5, I will be surprised if we don't see a bounty to complete and release support for it some time in the near future. Specially since it will be able to take advantage of PCIe video cards which will already be supported in MorphOS3.10.

    So, hang in there Jim. You have a good chance to get your wish granted "someday" in the future, but it might take a bounty to get it done. I probably won't get one, unless I see a quad G5 locally that is free, or almost free to pick up. If MorphOS suddenly (and unexpectedly) some day gets a version which can use more than one CPU for any task, then I might reconsider (it would need to be able to use more than 2 CPU cores to make it better than my current dual 2.7GHz G5). Either that, or if I decide that the better video card performance allowed by switching to a PCIe video card, makes it worth getting rid of my dual 2.7GHz G5, and switching to the quad G5.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »24.09.17 - 21:27
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    >...or spend next to nothing for a used PPC Mac ;-)

    Well...my G5s have both cost me $30 and $50 respectively, and I did have to rebuild the cooling system ($5 for four o-rings and you only need two)...so its not nothing ;-), but it IS the best value I've ever had in computer hardware.

    And I've got this 11,2 sitting here humming away running Linux, which it does almost as well as my X64 hardware, which makes the arguments against porting MorphOS to these systems doubly frustrating because its 'low hanging fruit' and it would leap frog us over A-eon's offerings in performance and price (the highest price I've seen for an 11,2, which was completely refurbished, was $300, so we are talking about half the price of a Tabor board alone).




    In the case of the 11.2 G5 PowerMac Quad G5, I think it should have been supported instead of the X5000, but understand why some users prefer to buy new hardware. Myself, I like getting extended use from old things, because I so strongly dislike how most of our societies have become too wasteful, and throw away things that still work perfectly well, just because something a tiny bit better has come along. This is specially true in the computer world, where things improve at such a fast rate, and everyone wants to have the latest and greatest stuff. I guess this is partly why I am still an Amiga user, because I enjoy making it do things it was never designed to do, but make it continue to be useful.

    Given that so little work seems to be needed to complete a version of MorphOS which could support the 11.2 G5, I will be surprised if we don't see a bounty to complete and release support for it some time in the near future. Specially since it will be able to take advantage of PCIe video cards which will already be supported in MorphOS3.10.

    So, hang in there Jim. You have a good chance to get your wish granted "someday" in the future, but it might take a bounty to get it done. I probably won't get one, unless I see a quad G5 locally that is free, or almost free to pick up. If MorphOS suddenly (and unexpectedly) some day gets a version which can use more than one CPU for any task, then I might reconsider (it would need to be able to use more than 2 CPU cores to make it better than my current dual 2.7GHz G5). Either that, or if I decide that the better video card performance allowed by switching to a PCIe video card, makes it worth getting rid of my dual 2.7GHz G5, and switching to the quad G5.


    Hey, I'd contribute to a bounty.
    I'd even consider a flight to Germany or South Africa to camp out on either Frank or Marks doorstep and beg for it on my knees.
    It would just be a really kick ass MorphOS system.
    The 11,2 can even be upgraded to SATA3 (with PCI-E X4 cards).
    It can handle dual video cards (which only the X1000 can do), and even with two video cards its still got two X4 PCI-E slots to spare.
    If you really wanted to get weird (the system could support four video cards), if you used cards that supported 3 or four mintors, that 12 to 16 separate displays from one computer/

    And No other NG system has the capability of supporting a full bandwith SATA card (unless it might work in an X1000's X8 slot), as you need a controller with more than one PCI-E lane (as an X1 slot doesn't have enough bandwidth).

    Look, its ideal for our OS, plain and simple.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »24.09.17 - 21:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10542 from 2003/5/22
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    > the 11.2 G5 PowerMac Quad G5 [...] should have been supported instead of the X5000

    If potential support for PowerMac11,2 won't span over all models, I'd prefer the slower dual-core ones to the quad-core one, because I prefer air cooling over liquid cooling.

    > it will be able to take advantage of PCIe video cards which will already be
    > supported in MorphOS3.10.

    ...or have been supported since MorphOS 3.8 already, which added compatibility with Sam460 and Radeon R500 (2D+3D). In a PCIe-capable MorphOS machine, I would take a 3D-supported R500 card over any 2D-only supported higher card any day. But that's just me :-)
  • »25.09.17 - 16:24
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > the 11.2 G5 PowerMac Quad G5 [...] should have been supported instead of the X5000

    If potential support for PowerMac11,2 won't span over all models, I'd prefer the slower dual-core ones to the quad-core one, because I prefer air cooling over liquid cooling.

    > it will be able to take advantage of PCIe video cards which will already be
    > supported in MorphOS3.10.

    ...or have been supported since MorphOS 3.8 already, which added compatibility with Sam460 and Radeon R500 (2D+3D). In a PCIe-capable MorphOS machine, I would take a 3D-supported R500 card over any 2D-only supported higher card any day. But that's just me :-)


    What makes you think we won't get 3D support above the R500s?
    The R500 cards were the last to support 2D primatives.
    So all the 2D code Mark is creating currently uses 3D commands.
    And he has admitted that this will make writing the 3D part of the drivers easier.

    From that comment, I'd assume 3D is a goal.

    As to the 11,2, I want the 2.5 Quad, and yes support for air cooled model should be included as well for the timid (or in my mind, overly cautious, if that makes you feel better).
    Personally, I've never had a water cooler failure, but then I followed David's suggestion and rebuilt them on receiving them.

    I'd also have no problem installing a water cooler in an X64 system, and that is the likely route I will take for Ryzen.

    But, I'm glad to have one of the sharpest minds posting here on my side on this issue ;-), 11.2 support ought to be pursued.

    [ Edited by Jim 25.09.2017 - 11:49 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.09.17 - 16:40
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10542 from 2003/5/22
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    > The 11,2 [...] can handle dual video cards (which only the X1000 can do)

    What about the X5000's x4 slot (the one behind the PCIe-PCIe bridge)? Wouldn't a normal PCIe x16 card work in it? (Btw, I also found R500, R600 and R800 cards with PCIe x1 connector).

    > No other NG system has the capability of supporting a full bandwith SATA card
    > (unless it might work in an X1000's X8 slot), as you need a controller with
    > more than one PCI-E lane (as an X1 slot doesn't have enough bandwidth).

    Yes, full-speed SATA3 needs 4 lanes of PCIe v1 or 2 lanes of PCIe v2. So what about the X5000's x4 slot (the one behind the PCIe-PCIe bridge)? Wouldn't a SATA3 card work full-speed in it, even if it was somehow limited to x2 speed by the bridge bottleneck?
  • »25.09.17 - 17:13
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    Spectre660
    Posts: 221 from 2015/6/30
    X5000's x4 slot is blocked by any video card wider than single slot.

    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > The 11,2 [...] can handle dual video cards (which only the X1000 can do)

    What about the X5000's x4 slot (the one behind the PCIe-PCIe bridge)? Wouldn't a normal PCIe x16 card work in it? (Btw, I also found R500, R600 and R800 cards with PCIe x1 connector).

    > No other NG system has the capability of supporting a full bandwith SATA card
    > (unless it might work in an X1000's X8 slot), as you need a controller with
    > more than one PCI-E lane (as an X1 slot doesn't have enough bandwidth).

    Yes, full-speed SATA3 needs 4 lanes of PCIe v1 or 2 lanes of PCIe v2. So what about the X5000's x4 slot (the one behind the PCIe-PCIe bridge)? Wouldn't a SATA3 card work full-speed in it, even if it was somehow limited to x2 speed by the bridge bottleneck?
  • »25.09.17 - 19:19
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
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    Would it, as its multiplexed?
    I don't know, I'm not sure I'd want to see the benchmarks.

    BUT video cards work in the G5's X4 slots, so you have a point.
    And talking to guru Hans, I did confirm (from tolsm's own benchmarks no less) that the X5000's video drivers aren't using DMA yet (and they're still as good as the SAM460), so look for that situation to improve.
    Also, I'm convinced there's got to be a firmware issue behind the low memory benchmarks.

    BTW - Where'd you find the X1 video cards? The only X1 cards I've seen were AMD FirePro cards and similar designs primarily intended to increase the number of displays (a video card running through an X1 connection would definitely be crippled in performance).

    But yes, I've seen them too.

    I guess you could say anything with an extra PCI-E slot (even if its only X1) could handle an extra card.
    I'd just install a primary card that could support more monitors (like AMD's Eyefinity concept).

    BTW - I just did a quick comparison between the P1022 and the T1042's SerDes I/O lines.
    You know, even though the T1042 only has two more SerDes lines, its bus operating frequency (twice as high) gives it about 267% of the performance of the P1022?

    6 SerDes lanes at 2.5 GHz vs. the 20 lanes at 5 GHz of the P5040...buying Tabor is just not that great an idea.
    I mean, we're already arguing if the X5000 is I/O limited.

    Then again, the only thing that comes close to the 11,2 is Freescale's T4240RDB, since the T4240 has 32 SerDes lanes at 10 GHz.

    There are PPC processors that could be used to build a decent lineup for NG, the T1042 at the low end, T2080 for a mid-range model, and something from the T4 lineup (like the T4240) at the high end, OR even the Power9 (as in the TalosII). We've discussed these, I can accept the P50XXs in the X5000, and hope the T2080 laptop makes it.
    But a P1022 based board in 2018?

    Mmm, since they're almost ready, how about the X5000 port and the 11,2 port, and then let's hit the road running for X64 (Ryzen maybe).
    'Cause its not getting just crazy around here, its getting STUPID.
    And I have some tolerance for crazy, but stupid is just plain irritating.

    [ Edited by Jim 25.09.2017 - 14:24 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.09.17 - 19:22
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    asrael22
    Posts: 388 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Mmm, since they're almost ready, how about the X5000 port and the 11,2 port, and then let's hit the road running for X64 (Ryzen maybe).
    'Cause its not getting just crazy around here, its getting STUPID.
    And I have some tolerance for crazy, but stupid is just plain irritating.


    Yeah, I'd be for it.
    Just bought a 11,2.
  • »25.09.17 - 19:41
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    asrael22 wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Mmm, since they're almost ready, how about the X5000 port and the 11,2 port, and then let's hit the road running for X64 (Ryzen maybe).
    'Cause its not getting just crazy around here, its getting STUPID.
    And I have some tolerance for crazy, but stupid is just plain irritating.


    Yeah, I'd be for it.
    Just bought a 11,2.


    It takes some work to set it up for Linux.
    Your easiest course if you want AMD graphics is one of those Apple X1900GT everyone keeps saying aren't available (although on any given day I can usually find listings for two or three of them).

    If its the water cooled quad, get a t-handled hex wrench, pull them cpus and rebuild the cooler.
    If not you're probably good for another 12 years if you just blow out the dust. ;-)

    BTW - How much did it set you back?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.09.17 - 20:06
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10542 from 2003/5/22
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    >> In a PCIe-capable MorphOS machine, I would take a 3D-supported R500 card
    >> over any 2D-only supported higher card any day.

    > What makes you think we won't get 3D support above the R500s?

    Nothing. I just said I would always prefer an older and slower card with 3D support to a newer and faster card without 3D support. For instance, if PowerMac11,2 support was introduced soonish and 3D support wasn't extended since MorphOS 3.8 at that time, i.e. not available for anything newer than R500, I'd use that PowerMac11,2 with an R500 card instead of a newer card.

    > I'd assume 3D is a goal.

    Yes, of course it is. But judging by the really small list of things still lacking for a potential PowerMac11,2 port, I guess that *could* be released before 3D support for anything newer than R500 was finished.

    > 11.2 support ought to be pursued.

    Absolutely :-)
  • »25.09.17 - 22:28
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10542 from 2003/5/22
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    >> What about the X5000's x4 slot (the one behind the PCIe-PCIe bridge)? Wouldn't a
    >> normal PCIe x16 card work in it? [...] Wouldn't a SATA3 card work full-speed in it,
    >> even if it was somehow limited to x2 speed by the bridge bottleneck?

    > X5000's x4 slot is blocked by any video card wider than single slot.

    So what? Single-slot graphics cards supported by OS4 are widely available, so this doesn't render my questions invalid.
  • »25.09.17 - 22:38
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    Jim
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    3D might be delayed, I don't know.
    Its an unspoken thing with Mark that I don't ask, and whatever he cares to mention...well that cool.

    I do know he works on this stuff maybe a little more than he should, after all he's married, and any guy that changes continents out of love...I just have a soft spot for that kind of stuff.

    You know, Mark's not just a top notch programmer, he's a very good guy (better man than me, I assure you).

    I'm REALLY looking forward to this next release, the little I already know of it...its going to be cool.

    [ Edited by Jim 25.09.2017 - 20:22 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.09.17 - 22:39
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 221 from 2015/6/30
    I was not trying to render your question invalid .

    89H12NT12G2
    https://www.idt.com/document/dst/89hpes12nt12g2-datasheet

    PI7C9X111SL
    https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI7C9X111SL.pdf

    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> What about the X5000's x4 slot (the one behind the PCIe-PCIe bridge)? Wouldn't a
    >> normal PCIe x16 card work in it? [...] Wouldn't a SATA3 card work full-speed in it,
    >> even if it was somehow limited to x2 speed by the bridge bottleneck?

    > X5000's x4 slot is blocked by any video card wider than single slot.

    So what? Single-slot graphics cards supported by OS4 are widely available, so this doesn't render my questions invalid.




    [ Edited by Spectre660 25.09.2017 - 18:54 ]
  • »25.09.17 - 22:50
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >89H12NT12G2
    >https://www.idt.com/document/dst/89hpes12nt12g2-datasheet

    I'd assume this is the PCI-E to PCI-E bridge, the link doesn't work for me, but you included the part number, so I'll find it. I figured it was an IDT component, so this confirms it (plenty of PCI-E to PCI bridge vendors, not so many for this type of component).

    >PI7C9X111SL
    >https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI7C9X111SL.pdf

    PCI-E to PCI bridge, link works, got it. Thank you.

    Thanks for the component listing. I've been bouncing the idea of a PCI-E bridge chip off of Roberto Innocenti (from the T2080 laptop project), since I actually think its a smart move.

    Does Tabor use anything like this first bridge? I would certainly help, considering the limited number of SerDes lanes.

    In any case, for a technical junkie like myself, good stuff. Again, big thanks.

    Edit - Its better to provide the page where the download link (for the first component) is provided.

    https://www.idt.com/products/interface-connectivity/pci-express-solutions/pci-express-switches/89h12nt12g2-12-lane-12-port-pcie-gen2-system-interconnect-switch

    Still, really f'ing neat stuff.
    Thanks Spectre.

    [ Edited by Jim 25.09.2017 - 20:21 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.09.17 - 23:18
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10542 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> what about the X5000's x4 slot (the one behind the PCIe-PCIe bridge)? Wouldn't
    >> a SATA3 card work full-speed in it, even if it was somehow limited to x2 speed
    >> by the bridge bottleneck?

    > Would it, as its multiplexed?

    I think so, as I doubt that multiplexing reduces the nominal bandwidth by more than 50%. There are 4 input lanes to the bridge, so using x2 bandwidth for a SATA3 card in the x4 slot leaves another x2 bandwidth for the remaining two x1 slots and the PCI bridge with two PCI slots. This means that using further cards in the two x1 slots (or in one x1 slot and one or two PCI slots) would be within the bandwidth of the PCI controller and the SATA3 card wouldn't be slowed down. Just when the two x1 slots *and* one or two PCI slots are occupied by cards, the 4 input lanes have to be multiplexed to more than 4 output lanes, so bandwidth would likely not be enough to sustain full SATA3 speed anymore.

    > Where'd you find the X1 video cards? The only X1 cards I've seen were
    > AMD FirePro cards and similar designs primarily intended to increase the
    > number of displays

    Yes, FirePro and FireMV. In EU online stores, I find currently available new:
    - FireMV 2250 (RV516) for 56 EUR
    - FireMV 2260 (RV620) for 89 EUR
    - FirePro 2450 (RV620) for 271 EUR
    - FirePro 2270 (RV810) for 113 EUR

    > I just did a quick comparison between the P1022 and the T1042's SerDes I/O lines.

    Regarding P1022:
    The P1022 on the Tabor/A1222 riddles me. A-Eon claims one PCIe x16 slot with x4 bandwidth for Tabor. If we look at the possible SerDes configurations for the P1022, we can see that the most sane configurations for PCIe that allow both SATA and Ethernet are x1 x1 x1 (0x06) and x2 (0x0e). This means the x16 slot could have x2 bandwidth at best, not x4. The only option that provides x4 bandwidth for one PCIe controller would be x4 x2 (0x1c), but this lacks both SATA and Ethernet.
    Even if we assume that assignment of the P1022's 6 SerDes lanes was completely arbitrary and not restricted by predefined configurations, PCIe x4 + 2x SATA + GbE would obviously require 7 SerDes lanes.
    Something seems not right here. Any ideas?

    Edit: mystery solved

    Regarding T1042:
    If we look at the possible SerDes configurations (or there, page 37) for the T1042, we see that the most sane configuration is 0x08 with x4 x1 x1 for PCIe, also providing 2x SATA as well as Ethernet (via "Parallel Port").

    > 20 lanes at 5 GHz of the P5040

    ...of which max. 8 can be assigned to PCIe.

    > the only thing that comes close to the 11,2 is Freescale's T4240RDB

    The T4240RDB has one x8 slot and one x4 slot (both at 5 GHz / PCIe v2), so only 50% of slots, 37.5% of PCIe lanes and 75% of PCIe bandwidth. The T4240QDS, which has up to four x4 slots and thus 100% of slots, has only 50% of PCIe lanes but 125% of PCIe bandwidth.

    > the T4240 has 32 SerDes lanes at 10 GHz.

    ...of which max. 16 can be assigned to PCIe (twelve at 5 GHz / PCIe v2, four at 10 GHz / PCIe v3).
    (Beside, the T4241 is to be preferred.)

    > since they're almost ready, how about the X5000 port and the 11,2 port

    I think the X5000 port *is* ready, or isn't it? :-)

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 15.06.2018 - 13:14 ]
  • »26.09.17 - 02:00
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10542 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>> What about the X5000's x4 slot (the one behind the PCIe-PCIe bridge)? Wouldn't a
    >>>> normal PCIe x16 card work in it? [...] Wouldn't a SATA3 card work full-speed in it,
    >>>> even if it was somehow limited to x2 speed by the bridge bottleneck?

    >>> X5000's x4 slot is blocked by any video card wider than single slot.

    >> So what? Single-slot graphics cards supported by OS4 are widely available,
    >> so this doesn't render my questions invalid.

    > I was not trying to render your question invalid .

    What were you trying to do then by giving that reply? Where's the connection to my specific questions?

    > 89H12NT12G2
    > https://www.idt.com/document/dst/89hpes12nt12g2-datasheet

    I already linked to the PCIe-PCIe bridge two weeks ago. Can you quote the information from the datasheet that answers my specific questions?

    > PI7C9X111SL
    > https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI7C9X111SL.pdf

    Again, what has the PCIe-PCI bridge to do with my questions?
  • »26.09.17 - 02:11
    Profile