C64 for the future? (it's back!)
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2514 from 2003/2/24
    The Commodore 64 is returning! :-o

    - The Commodore trade mark/logo has been licensed
    - Brand new cases are being produced from original C64c molds
    - In May 2015, the new main board C64 Reloaded (C64R) was released. Two new(!) versions of this main board are now being prepared for production.
    - All by Individual Computers (Jens Schönfeld) :-)

    https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/33/items/commodore-back-in-germany.html

    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »01.09.16 - 06:31
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  • Moderator
    hooligan
    Posts: 1934 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Pretty cool looking cases
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »01.09.16 - 20:28
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1225 from 2003/4/13
    In the right hands for a change. Jens has made replacement MBs and now he has the case molds AND the name. If he can get new keyboard made, he can sell whole new 64s!
  • »01.09.16 - 22:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2514 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    hooligan wrote:
    Pretty cool looking cases


    Yeah! :-D

    Can't decide which I like the most. I must say that it has a very special appeal to see the C64c shape in the original breadbox colors. :-) But the Plus 4 (?) black one is also cool, I remember I was always imagining a black C64. And the two-colored SX 64 (?) one is kind of classy...

    I already have an original white, but hey, offer me a bundle price an I'll buy all four!

    :-)

    I signed up for the news letter at least...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »01.09.16 - 22:54
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2514 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    In the right hands for a change. Jens has made replacement MBs and now he has the case molds AND the name. If he can get new keyboard made, he can sell whole new 64s!


    Yep, new keyboards would be really interesting, even as replacement parts for old gear. 30 year old keyboards can really show signs of age and a hard life...

    And yes, brand new C64's, that's a cool thought! With HDMI! :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »01.09.16 - 23:01
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 349 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Three issues take the shine off:

    - No datasette or 1541 disk drive. It's difficult to find an original C64 that doesn't work, even in 2016; on the contrary, the power bricks, datasettes and drives all went much sooner and are real hard to find. Besides, what's the point in a shiny new case if you have an old drive sitting next to it? There doesn't seem to be clever USB/SD/network-based way of handling disk images, either - or if there is, someone needs to point it out to me.

    - S-Video? About the worst supported video connector ever. Ok, I can understand ditching the TV modulator, but you're going to have to get an S-video to SCART converter, and more importantly, a TV that supports an S-video input signal, or it's just going to show monochrome. Modern TVs don't have S-video or SCART, just a bunch of HDMI and (if you're lucky) a composite so you can plug in old video cameras.

    - Jens Schönfeld. Handbags at forty paces.
  • »01.09.16 - 23:01
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1225 from 2003/4/13
    A lot to tackle here

    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Three issues take the shine off:


    Nope :-D

    Quote:

    - No datasette or 1541 disk drive.


    Apart from some really, really obsessive purists, not many people use datasette or even 1541 these days.

    Quote:

    It's difficult to find an original C64 that doesn't work, even in 2016;


    Not really, there are tons of broken 64 out in the wild. Sure you get a clean guaranteed working 64 on eBay, but the prices are creeping up on these. The original black brick power supplies are ticking time bombs, with most of them blowing up by now taking out multiple ICs.

    Quote:

    on the contrary, the power bricks, datasettes and drives all went much sooner and are real hard to find.


    Yeah, the original power bricks are shit. The C64 reloaded boards use a modern 12V power supply and the boards themselves run cooler. For owners of the original C64 replacement power supplies are available. Some really suspect garbage, but Ray Carlsen has some nice higher end models. I like his $100+ models (though I'd probably just build my own).

    http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/custom%20ps.html

    You don't actually need a 1541 or datasette these days. Some like them for nostalgia, I don't. I don't own a datasette and my 1541/1571 only ever get hooked up to archive some original.

    Quote:

    Besides, what's the point in a shiny new case if you have an old drive sitting next to it? There doesn't seem to be clever USB/SD/network-based way of handling disk images, either - or if there is, someone needs to point it out to me.


    You are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of the loop it seems :-D There are too many products to mention, presently available and soon to be available. Some time you are bored check out 1541 Ultimate II, Turbo Chameleon 64 (true 1541 drive emulation just one feature), both of which give perfect drive emulation. Jim Drew will be releasing a really neat stand along drive emulator called uDrive in the coming months, a true cycle perfect 1541 (and other drive) emulation. Coupled with images made with his SuperCard Pro, you have access to actual flux level disk images.

    For non drive emulators, there are tons of mass storage devices that work really well, with extra capabilities, but some limitations. Examples of these are based on SD2IEC, where there are tons of implementations. I personally
    have one of these, but there are many, many others such as the Manosoft Princess

    Quote:

    - S-Video? About the worst supported video connector ever. Ok, I can understand ditching the TV modulator, but you're going to have to get an S-video to SCART converter, and more importantly, a TV that supports an S-video input signal, or it's just going to show monochrome. Modern TVs don't have S-video or SCART, just a bunch of HDMI and (if you're lucky) a composite so you can plug in old video cameras.


    Here in the US S-Video is perfect up to a few years ago almost all LCD/LED TVs has S-Video input and they generally do a great job. You can still get TVs with S-Video input, but they seem to be on the way out. If you don't want to deal with S-Video at all there are plenty of solutions to convert to SVGA or other types. Re-visiting the Turb Chamemelon 64 I own, another feature is the SVGA output. Otherwise there are plenty of ways to get the signal output how you want it.

    [ Edited by redrumloa 01.09.2016 - 20:42 ]
  • »01.09.16 - 23:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1225 from 2003/4/13
    Oh and I am missing so much on this, too much to mention. There is a USB mass storage solution, there are also ethernet/USB solutions to use a PC as a file server.
  • »01.09.16 - 23:46
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  • rob
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    Butterfly
    rob
    Posts: 90 from 2008/7/22
    A quick browse of the Currys website show plenty of TVs that still have SCART, including a top end Sony Bravio 55" 4K TV. It may not be prominently advertised as a feature any more but it's often still there when you look at the full specs. SCART is pretty useless outside Europe although it's easier to convert to another RGB source such as component RGB, which seems to be present on TVs that don't have SCART.
  • »01.09.16 - 23:50
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 349 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    A quick browse of the Currys website show plenty of TVs that still have SCART, including a top end Sony Bravio 55" 4K TV. It may not be prominently advertised as a feature any more but it's often still there when you look at the full specs. SCART is pretty useless outside Europe although it's easier to convert to another RGB source such as component RGB, which seems to be present on TVs that don't have SCART.


    My current TV, some {Edit: YEARS} old, has SCART, but the SCART ports don't support S-video. A converter only changes the connector, not the signal. Anything S-video I output will end up in black and white.

    It seems S-video is a lot more popular in the US. I don't think I've seen an S-video connector since the late 80s here, except on a Slingbox and my old DVD-Rec, which is why I know that my TV isn't capable of taking it. The DVD-Rec supports S-video, both native and through SCART.

    [ Edited by KennyR 02.09.2016 - 23:26 ]
  • »02.09.16 - 19:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2514 from 2003/2/24
    You guys are talking about features like s-video etc, did you get this from the past C64R model, or do you know something I don't about the two new models that has been announced?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »04.09.16 - 10:39
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    KennyR
    Posts: 349 from 2003/3/4
    From: #AmigaZeux, Gu...
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    You guys are talking about features like s-video etc, did you get this from the past C64R model, or do you know something I don't about the two new models that has been announced?


    HDMI seems unlikely on the new models.
  • »05.09.16 - 00:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2514 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    You guys are talking about features like s-video etc, did you get this from the past C64R model, or do you know something I don't about the two new models that has been announced?


    HDMI seems unlikely on the new models.


    The Amiga Reloaded has two options for monitor connection, the second one offer VGA and an HDMI output. Maybe that will happen here as well?

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.09.16 - 06:45
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    - Brand new cases are being produced from original C64c molds

    ...

    - All by Individual Computers (Jens Schönfeld) :-)



    Afaik, the mold for C64C is the same, that was used for the earlier kickstarter project. Got a couple of cases from there. As far as I know, Jens wasn't involved at that point.

    As for Jens acquiring the brand name, I feel slightly bad about this...

    In my opinion, would have been better if someone else (or no-one) acquired it.

    Hopefully nothing (too) bad comes from this.



    As for C64 upgrades, I highly recommend the 1541 Ultimate II, that was previously mentioned. That (well, the first one) was the first ever C64 module that offers proper drive emulation (something Jens had refused to do for years...) - quickly gained lots of users, since that's what people had been wanting for years :-)
  • »05.09.16 - 22:21
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2514 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jupp3 wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    - Brand new cases are being produced from original C64c molds

    ...

    - All by Individual Computers (Jens Schönfeld) :-)



    Afaik, the mold for C64C is the same, that was used for the earlier kickstarter project.


    Yes, the article say it's the same.

    Quote:

    As far as I know, Jens wasn't involved at that point.


    Never said he was, only that he is orchestating *this* effort, i.e. a bundle of the Commodore brand, 2 new C64 models, original C64C cases in cool retro colors...

    Quote:

    As for Jens acquiring the brand name


    I read it as he licensed it...?

    Quote:

    Hopefully nothing (too) bad comes from this.


    Personally, I'm hoping for new keyboards as well, both dark and light, as in the picture. And ideally with an option to have a swedish key layout (and character ROM)... ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »05.09.16 - 22:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Well, since he's got quite a bit of history of harassing competitors (and non-competitors) in the "retro-hardware" field, I don't quite like such behavior.

    It's (remotely) understandable when there's "similar" (read: often way better) competiting product (f.ex. Kryoflux vs. Catweasel), but why harass the guy, who's doing Zorro2 gfx card for Amiga 2000? I don't know of Individual Computers having done any gfx cards...

    And add to that the fact, that some promised features might not make it to the end product (but might make it into the follow-up product), some hardware just not working as advertised (Keyrah joystick ports are practically useless for any realtime gaming, despite advertised specifically for gaming), I try to find "non-Jens" alternative whenever possible.

    Too bad I bought MMC Replay just before finding out about 1541 Ultimate...
  • »05.09.16 - 23:09
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9936 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > why harass the guy, who's doing Zorro2 gfx card for Amiga 2000?

    Something to do with (plans for) the rights to the P96 software.
  • »06.09.16 - 00:07
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > why harass the guy, who's doing Zorro2 gfx card for Amiga 2000?

    Something to do with (plans for) the rights to the P96 software.


    Or simply nothing more than just another example how Jens does business.
  • »06.09.16 - 02:23
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1225 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Jupp3 wrote:
    Well, since he's got quite a bit of history of harassing competitors (and non-competitors) in the "retro-hardware" field, I don't quite like such behavior.

    It's (remotely) understandable when there's "similar" (read: often way better) competiting product (f.ex. Kryoflux vs. Catweasel), but why harass the guy, who's doing Zorro2 gfx card for Amiga 2000? I don't know of Individual Computers having done any gfx cards...

    And add to that the fact, that some promised features might not make it to the end product (but might make it into the follow-up product), some hardware just not working as advertised (Keyrah joystick ports are practically useless for any realtime gaming, despite advertised specifically for gaming), I try to find "non-Jens" alternative whenever possible.

    Too bad I bought MMC Replay just before finding out about 1541 Ultimate...


    I've not seen Jens "harass" anyone, but I'm not familiar with this Z2 gfx card project. Sounds like it never came out, so if he spoke negatively about it he must have been right. Considering the staggering example of vapor projects, I actually like his candor.

    BTW I think you will find the Turbo Chameleon 64 to be superior to the 1541 Ultimate in every way for little more money.
  • »06.09.16 - 02:32
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  • rob
  • Butterfly
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    rob
    Posts: 90 from 2008/7/22
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    I've not seen Jens "harass" anyone, but I'm not familiar with this Z2 gfx card project.


    I was at Big Bash in 2006 and when Oli HD did his talk about his Coldfire project and Jens absolutely tore into Oli over it. I felt bad for Oli, I'd spoke to him earlier in the show and he's a decent guy. There was certainly no reason for Jens to be so harsh.

    I wouldn't let it stop me buying his products though.
  • »06.09.16 - 17:54
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4692 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    rob wrote:
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    I've not seen Jens "harass" anyone, but I'm not familiar with this Z2 gfx card project.


    I was at Big Bash in 2006 and when Oli HD did his talk about his Coldfire project and Jens absolutely tore into Oli over it. I felt bad for Oli, I'd spoke to him earlier in the show and he's a decent guy. There was certainly no reason for Jens to be so harsh.

    I wouldn't let it stop me buying his products though.




    Hmm...I have two Coldfire systems.
    They are actually pretty cool.
    And the cpus are dirt cheap with support for PCI and LAN built in.
    So I'm not sure I give a rat's ass for what Jen's thinks.

    That being said, I guess in our small market we have to accept some eccentricity from our suppliers.
    Gunnar and the Apollo team and Jens at Individual seem like good examples of this.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »06.09.16 - 21:05
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9936 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Oli HD did his talk about his Coldfire project and Jens absolutely tore into Oli over it.

    > I have two Coldfire systems. They are actually pretty cool. And the cpus are dirt cheap with
    > support for PCI and LAN built in. So I'm not sure I give a rat's ass for what Jen's thinks.

    The fact you don't intend to run AmigaOS on them might play a role in your conclusion, I reckon ;-)
  • »06.09.16 - 22:54
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    BTW I think you will find the Turbo Chameleon 64 to be superior to the 1541 Ultimate in every way for little more money.


    Let's see the most important ones...

    1541 emulation: (no experience with Chameleon, but let's assume it's as good) - Tie.

    REU support: (Doing some related coding myself, so I find this somewhat important) - again, based on assumption - Tie.

    Expandability: 1541 Ultimate 2 has an USB connector, and has lately added f.ex. USB ethernet support (still hoping for MIDI support). There's also cassette port connector for dumping tapes & loading images. Chameleon has a custom slot for (expensive) Ethernet module and IR & PS/2 (maybe something else too?) - I'd say especially due to future expandability potential, 1541U2 is a clear winner.

    Compatibility: AFAIK, Chameleon can't be used as a drive with Vic-20 etc. (at least without some extra hardware) - Winner: 1541U2

    "Authenticity": (as in "Why would I use this instead of software emulator?") - Both emulate 1541 (or some other) drive. Chameleon can emulate the entire C64 in FPGA, BUT even when connected to C64, the CPU is always emulated. So I'd say: - 1541U2 definitely more authentic.

    Future proof: The source code for 1541 Ultimate is open. Not exactly sure about Chameleon, but at least some fpga cores are open. From experience, this is VERY important in "Jens hardware", since sometimes promised features just are never finished (or released only for the next version hardware)



    So what superior features am I missing?

    Yes, I know there's (SuperCPU incompatible) turbo, but that's something I can do with software emulators. If it's going to be based on guesstimates about the internal functionality of hardware, I don't think there's much difference if the emulation is done in software or FPGA. VGA out? My Raspberry Pi has HDMI with software emulator based on the exact same assumptions on VIC-2 internals.

    And as for Jens, has everyone already forgotten about him angrily dropping all (promised) MorphOS support, due to some disagreements with Genesi? You know, the same Genesi that MorphOS development team also had disagreements with...
  • »07.09.16 - 15:03
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