Timberwolf sources released! (Firefox)
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1889 from 2003/10/19
    From: Oxnard, Ca.
    Anyone seen this and know if it will allow a port to MorphOS?

    https://github.com/tfrieden/timberwolf
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  • »30.10.15 - 15:05
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1168 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    TimberWolf is based on version 4 of Firefox. The current stable release of Firefox has the version number 41.

    If there is a new modern website that does not work perfectly with Odyssey for some reason, a port of a 5 years old version of Firefox is not very likely to help.

    It is certainly nice that the source was finally published but I am afraid it is of very little use in late 2015.
  • »30.10.15 - 15:15
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2641 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Acill wrote:
    Anyone seen this and know if it will allow a port to MorphOS?

    https://github.com/tfrieden/timberwolf


    I just saw it too and was wondering if this might be something useful, now that it appears that Odyssey has hit a significant snag with the Endian problem in the Webkit engine.

    I don't even know what rendering engine Firefox/Timberwolf uses, so maybe it has the same problem.

    Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if some MorphOS developers took the existing Timberwolf code and made it actually work (much better), while porting it to MorphOS? We all know how important it is to have a good web browser for our platform, as any OS that doesn't have a decent browser is either only useful for specialized tasks, like embedded devices in cars, or other machinery.

    I hope that Odyssey can find a way forward for MorphOS on PPC, but if not, maybe a new and fixed Timberwolf would be an option.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »30.10.15 - 15:19
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    The code is really old. How much better use can it be over 1.5 year old OWB?
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  • »30.10.15 - 16:48
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1053 from 2013/5/24
    From: fbih
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    The code is really old. How much better use can it be over 1.5 year old OWB?


    I'm looking forward to the calls to port it to 68k that will surely come soon lol
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  • »30.10.15 - 17:01
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    pampers
    Posts: 1057 from 2009/2/26
    From: Tczew, Poland
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if some MorphOS developers took the existing Timberwolf code and made it actually work (much better), while porting it to MorphOS?


    I'm not a coder at all but I think making a port from scratch based on newest version would make much more sense. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me :)
    MorphOS 3.x
  • »30.10.15 - 17:04
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1889 from 2003/10/19
    From: Oxnard, Ca.
    I didnt realize it was so old. It still may be looking over for anything that could be used maybe.
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  • »30.10.15 - 17:41
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cego
    Posts: 587 from 2006/5/28
    From: Germany
    well, i think a port would be nice with a more recent Gekko engine. Is that too much of a task? The GUI would stay as it is. Just to have a proper mainstream browser with all its features like extensions would be really neat!
    And think about all the effort you would have to put into OWB regarding fixing bugs, updating the webkit and the endian issue, i wonder if it would be a much bigger task than just port Timberwolf to MorphOS.
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  • »30.10.15 - 18:34
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1168 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Cego wrote:
    well, i think a port would be nice with a more recent Gekko engine. Is that too much of a task? The GUI would stay as it is.

    With Firefox, the GUI is drawn using the web engine (Gekko). Unlike Odyssey, Timberwolf does not feature a native (MUI / Reaction) user interface on its target OS.

    Quote:

    And think about all the effort you would have to put into OWB regarding fixing bugs, updating the webkit and the endian issue, i wonder if it would be a much bigger task than just port Timberwolf to MorphOS.

    Well, look at the state of Odyssey and look at the state of Timberwolf today...
  • »30.10.15 - 19:00
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Cego
    Posts: 587 from 2006/5/28
    From: Germany
    i'm not into software development so i cant really judge, but i had the impression that the Javascript endian issue is a pretty huge task, so i was just wondering how this relates to the amount of work that had to be done to get timberwolf on MorphOS.
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  • »30.10.15 - 19:30
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1168 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Cego wrote:
    i'm not into software development so i cant really judge, but i had the impression that the Javascript endian issue is a pretty huge task, so i was just wondering how this relates to the amount of work that had to be done to get timberwolf on MorphOS.

    It is not a trivial technical issue but that does not mean it is more work than porting an entirely different browser engine...

    The JavaScript core problems are systemic and show a general lack of consideration for big endian architectures. The core issue is that even if you invest the time and make the current version of Webkit work again, you may run into far more severe issues in a few months unless the Webkit maintainers conclude that fixing support for big endian architectures is still a worthwhile endeavour.

    We will see how this plays out.
  • »30.10.15 - 19:59
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10648 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I don't even know what rendering engine Firefox/Timberwolf uses

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gecko_(software)
  • »30.10.15 - 22:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2641 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    The code is really old. How much better use can it be over 1.5 year old OWB?


    I distinctly remember Timberwolf being delayed because they switched from one version to (what I thought was the most current version) the next version, about half way through the project. Has it really been that long that Firefox has gone from version 4, or 5 to version 41 and the Timberwolf code is so terribly outdated that it is not even useful as a starting point?

    It does not seem that long ago since Timberwolf was released, but time moves faster as I get older, so maybe I am wrong and it really has been 4 or 5 years since Timberwolf was released. If they were basing Timberwolf on a version that was already old when they started, then that would explain why it is so far behind now.

    Others who have more knowledge of both Odyssey and Firefox, as well as Timberwolf should be giving us more educated estimates of the usability of the Timberwolf source code in regards to making a better web browser for MorphOS, so I wish Fab would weigh in on this topic and enlighten us with some real expertise.
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  • »31.10.15 - 01:23
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  • MorphOS Developer
    cyfm
    Posts: 388 from 2003/4/11
    From: Germany
    for the record, Firefox release history is here:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_release_history

    So we talk about some 2010/11 codebase that has been frequently updated ever since.

    Everyone who thinks that the released code could be used to catch up with any more current release has never worked on a larger software project before probably.

    The Timberwolf repository might tell a bit about code quality provided by the respective authors but that's pretty much it...
  • »31.10.15 - 09:41
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    I've read that they used not up to date code, which is why it is 5 years old now. As for the browser, I think the first public version was released in 2012, or late 2011.
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  • »31.10.15 - 09:42
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1361 from 2003/4/13
    HYPErion doesn't want Timberwolf to be used on unclean systems. LINK

    Quote:

    /* ***** BEGIN LICENSE BLOCK *****
    *
    * The contents of this file is copyrighted by Thomas and Hans-Joerg Frieden.
    * It's content is not open source and may not be redistributed, modified or adapted
    * without permission of the above-mentioned copyright holders.
    *
    * Since this code was originally developed under an AmigaOS related bounty, any derived
    * version of this file may only be used on an official AmigaOS system.
    *
    * Contributor(s):
    * Thomas Frieden
    * Hans-Joerg Frieden
    *
    * ***** END LICENSE BLOCK ***** */


  • »31.10.15 - 12:43
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10648 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I think the first public version was released in 2012, or late 2011.

    The first public version of Timberwolf, which was a port of Firefox 3.5, was released in June 2010:

    http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewhistory&projectid=44&historyid=41
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7141&forum=9

    After this, Timberwolf switched to Firefox 4.0 (originally called 3.7) code base:

    http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewhistory&projectid=44&historyid=49

    The second public version (4.0.1) was released in February 2012:

    http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewhistory&projectid=44&historyid=57
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8325&forum=9
  • »31.10.15 - 13:10
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Derringer
    Posts: 103 from 2008/8/4
    From: Budapest, Hung...
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    HYPErion doesn't want Timberwolf to be used on unclean systems. LINK

    Quote:

    /* ***** BEGIN LICENSE BLOCK *****
    *
    * The contents of this file is copyrighted by Thomas and Hans-Joerg Frieden.
    * It's content is not open source and may not be redistributed, modified or adapted
    * without permission of the above-mentioned copyright holders.
    *
    * Since this code was originally developed under an AmigaOS related bounty, any derived
    * version of this file may only be used on an official AmigaOS system.
    *
    * Contributor(s):
    * Thomas Frieden
    * Hans-Joerg Frieden
    *
    * ***** END LICENSE BLOCK ***** */





    A few weeks ago Hyperion put the gun on the table...They completly ingonerd Piru's copyright claims, so we can safely ctrl-x their "licence block".
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  • »01.11.15 - 08:41
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Well, Costel Mincea of Hyperion did actually appologise. It was Ben Hermans who decided to be ... well, his usual self.

    https://sintonen.fi/amigaos-sdk-copyright-infringement/
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  • »01.11.15 - 09:44
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1361 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Well, Costel Mincea of Hyperion did actually appologise. It was Ben Hermans who decided to be ... well, his usual self.


    I don't think it is just Hermans. The Wonder Twins are just as guilty. Timerwolf was a Thomas and Hans-Joerg Frieden scheme, not a HYPErion scheme.
  • »01.11.15 - 12:28
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10648 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> Costel Mincea of Hyperion did actually appologise. It was Ben Hermans who decided to be
    >> ... well, his usual self.
    >> https://sintonen.fi/amigaos-sdk-copyright-infringement/

    > The Wonder Twins are just as guilty. Timerwolf was a Thomas and
    > Hans-Joerg Frieden scheme, not a HYPErion scheme.

    I don't think Yasu was talking about Timberwolf in the posting you replied to. The Friedens have nothing to do with the copyright infringement case nor am I aware that Timberwolf infringes on anyone's copyright.
  • »01.11.15 - 13:17
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1937 from 2003/2/24
    The Friedens do have a history of being rather hypocritical when it comes to sharing sources or the validity of the GPL, so red surely has a point (even if we would ignore that hilarious copyright note in the TW sources).

    [ Edited by Kronos 01.11.2015 - 16:24 ]
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  • »01.11.15 - 14:24
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Kronos

    I'm curious, what kind of stuff have they done? I think it must be before my time because when I rejoined the Amiga world they where pretty much out of sight already.
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  • »01.11.15 - 15:23
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1361 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    I don't think Yasu was talking about Timberwolf in the posting you replied to. The Friedens have nothing to do with the copyright infringement case nor am I aware that Timberwolf infringes on anyone's copyright.


    I don't claim to be an expert on open source software, but you aren't really trying to claim that the Wonder Twins are acting in anyone's best interest with TW besides themselves? You don't really think they are acting in the best interest of the bounty contributers, the end users, or the OSS community in general, do you?
  • »02.11.15 - 17:05
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