Discussion of the Tabor / A1222 mainboard
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9738 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > some apes began to throw shit on [...] powerpc technology in general. [...]
    > Dear Jim [...]

    You sound confused :-)
  • »16.10.15 - 13:25
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 155 from 2015/6/30
    Comment from Hyperion .

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40622&forum=2&start=460&viewmode=flat&order=0#770947

    [ Edited by Spectre660 17.10.2015 - 11:23 ]
  • »17.10.15 - 15:59
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 130 from 2015/8/23
    http://www.os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1670&sid=e2c6fbaecf723b05ca59e3531417292b

    So, I was right about apes throwing shit on a-eon and powerpc technology in general.

    Some people simply don't like bitter truth.

    btw netbsd has port for e500v2 for three yrs, and users of this port also report

    that trapping fpu instructions on e500v2 is not a problem, and has no impact on performance.
  • »17.10.15 - 17:38
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1753 from 2003/2/24
    And where does who state that it would have no impact on performance ?

    Trapping allways has a negative impact and replacing the FPU commands with integer code (the FPU on chip uses diffent datatypes and is unusable for emulation) will also slow things down.

    How big that impact is will hugely depend on the app used.


    So OS4 can handle that SoC just as good as AmigaOS could handle an 68LC60, only that back than trapping didn't work (as LCs were really downlabeled 68060s with a defective FPU).


    Considering that FreeScale has SoCs with a proper FPU and similar price and performance on sale one can only wonder wether "Amiga" was even a faint 3rd though when designing that board.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
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  • »17.10.15 - 18:13
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 446 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    http://www.os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1670&sid=e2c6fbaecf723b05ca59e3531417292b

    So, I was right about apes throwing shit on a-eon and powerpc technology in general.

    Some people simply don't like bitter truth.

    btw netbsd has port for e500v2 for three yrs, and users of this port also report

    that trapping fpu instructions on e500v2 is not a problem, and has no impact on performance.


    The post you linked doesn't say anything about no impact on the performance. Even Ben said no significant impact, but didn't back it up with anything. I prefer to be a thinking ape, rather than taking things at blind faith.
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »17.10.15 - 18:24
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9738 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > netbsd has port for e500v2 for three yrs

    You can't compare *BSD or Linux with OS4 as the latter doesn't get all 3rd party programs recompiled with each OS release.

    > users of this port also report that trapping fpu instructions on e500v2 [...]
    > has no impact on performance.

    Do you have such link where performance of FPU-depending binaries on e500v2 is compared between FPU trapping and compilation for e500v2 and no difference is noticed?
  • »17.10.15 - 18:49
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1127 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    http://www.os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1670&sid=e2c6fbaecf723b05ca59e3531417292b

    So, I was right about apes throwing shit on a-eon and powerpc technology in general.

    Some people simply don't like bitter truth.

    btw netbsd has port for e500v2 for three yrs, and users of this port also report

    that trapping fpu instructions on e500v2 is not a problem, and has no impact on performance.



    The Grape Koolaid is strong in this one. So much stupid, so little time.
  • »17.10.15 - 20:21
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1127 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    Comment from Hyperion .

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40622&forum=2&start=460&viewmode=flat&order=0#770947


    A comment from Ben Hermans isn't worth the electricity used to light up the pixels that make the words of his statement. This man has a history of making laughably false statements. Not just statements from 10-15 years ago, but recent history too.
  • »17.10.15 - 20:24
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 9738 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the FPU on chip uses diffent datatypes

    Both the standard PPC FPU and the e500v2 FPU can handle double precision floats. Or what do you mean?

    > FreeScale has SoCs with a proper FPU and similar price and performance on sale

    True, but I suspect that QorIQ T1 wasn't available when Tabor idea was born and design process started. Nevertheless, they could have used a Mamba SoC from APM's PPC465-based PacketPro family instead.

    http://www.apm.com/products/embedded/mamba-family/
  • »17.10.15 - 20:54
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1842 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    redrumloa schrieb:
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    Comment from Hyperion .

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40622&forum=2&start=460&viewmode=flat&order=0#770947


    A comment from Ben Hermans isn't worth the electricity used to light up the pixels that make the words of his statement. This man has a history of making laughably false statements. Not just statements from 10-15 years ago, but recent history too.


    Exactly. Lawyer and liar sound similar and _sometimes_ are similar.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
  • »17.10.15 - 21:10
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1723 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    The bitter truth? We are not really talking about a revolutionary piece of hardware here, even if we ignore the FPU.

    My cheap Mac Mini will still run MorphOS faster than AmigaOS 4 will run on that board. _That_ is the bitter truth.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

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  • »17.10.15 - 21:43
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 976 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    The bitter truth? We are not really talking about a revolutionary piece of hardware here, even if we ignore the FPU.

    My cheap Mac Mini will still run MorphOS faster than AmigaOS 4 will run on that board. _That_ is the bitter truth.


    I wonder how it'll compare performance wise to OS4 in UAE on an identically priced x86 machine?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »17.10.15 - 22:19
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 446 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    The bitter truth? We are not really talking about a revolutionary piece of hardware here, even if we ignore the FPU.

    My cheap Mac Mini will still run MorphOS faster than AmigaOS 4 will run on that board. _That_ is the bitter truth.


    I wonder how it'll compare performance wise to OS4 in UAE on an identically priced x86 machine?


    Pretty well I'd say. Mac Minis are still cheap as dirt, and OS4 Classic have only very limited hardware support (128MB RAM, no HW graphics acceleration, etc.).
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »17.10.15 - 22:46
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Intuition
    Posts: 976 from 2013/5/24
    From: Englistan
    Quote:

    BSzili wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    The bitter truth? We are not really talking about a revolutionary piece of hardware here, even if we ignore the FPU.

    My cheap Mac Mini will still run MorphOS faster than AmigaOS 4 will run on that board. _That_ is the bitter truth.


    I wonder how it'll compare performance wise to OS4 in UAE on an identically priced x86 machine?


    Pretty well I'd say. Mac Minis are still cheap as dirt, and OS4 Classic have only very limited hardware support (128MB RAM, no HW graphics acceleration, etc.).


    Sorry, I should have been more specific, I meant "I wonder how the Tabor will compare" not the Mac Mini.

    If the Tabor sells for 700 you can buy an awful lot of Intel brute-force emulation power for the same price. UAE will probably get hardware accelerated graphics support and more emulated RAM at some future point too I imagine.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »17.10.15 - 23:00
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1753 from 2003/2/24
    The limitation for OS4 emulated lay in OS4-classic which will bail on anything that goes beyond what the actual HW could deliever.

    "Fixing" OS4 to support UAE more directly would be trivial, but just won't happen.

    Porting OS4 to a no-nonsense PPC-EMU would also be possible but won't happen till Mr Beelzebub puts warm socks on his XMas wishlist.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »17.10.15 - 23:18
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 983 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Sorry, I should have been more specific, I meant "I wonder how the Tabor will compare" not the Mac Mini.

    I think that was understood. Still, given that this is a MorphOS website, it should not be surprising that someone would point out how a low-cost Mac Mini G4 would provide much better performance than PPC emulation on a very high-end Intel-compatible machine.

    Quote:

    If the Tabor sells for 700 you can buy an awful lot of Intel brute-force emulation power for the same price.

    Single-core performance has not improved much in the past few years. Intel's focus appears to have been on improving power efficiency.

    Quote:

    UAE will probably get hardware accelerated graphics support and more emulated RAM at some future point too I imagine.

    We'll see.
  • »17.10.15 - 23:21
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 130 from 2015/8/23
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Do you have such link where performance of FPU-depending binaries on e500v2 is compared between FPU trapping and compilation for e500v2 and no difference is noticed?



    I talk with few users, and they say that it is not a problem.
  • »18.10.15 - 17:00
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1753 from 2003/2/24
    aka, they do have a rather odd definition of "problem".

    Sure stuff will run, and if it ain't performance critical (and noone sane would use PPC-Linux when performance is a concern) one would probraly not notice the difference.

    Doesn't mean there ain't no one....
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »18.10.15 - 17:20
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Posts: 130 from 2015/8/23
    Yes, apps works without bugs and visible slowdowns,
    it means there is no problem with fpu trapping.
  • »18.10.15 - 18:33
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    BSzili
    Posts: 446 from 2012/6/8
    From: Hungary
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    Yes, apps works without bugs and visible slowdowns,
    it means there is no problem with fpu trapping.



    What is a "visible slowdown"? Where are the benchmarks running on OS4 or at least linux?
    I see the jimmies have been rustled.
  • »18.10.15 - 19:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2502 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    I suggest that all speculation be delayed regarding performance and pricing of the AmigaOne A1222 until after benchmarks are available, and A-Eon has finalized the price which they are going to charge for it. Take the statement from Trevor who has said that the 700 to 1,000 Euro quoted price is "very high" over what the actual price will be, as proof that he is doing his best with A-Eon in partnership with ACube to bring a lower priced new AmigaOne system to the users.

    As for the FPU complications and performance implications, I'll wait for actual benchmarks on real world applications and games before passing judgement, as the developers who are actually doing the work of porting to this board are showing very little concern that the performance will be unacceptable. If it were truly that bad, I doubt that they would spend their time working to port to this product.

    In other words, I think that most posters in this thread need to calm down and take a "wait and see" attitude, before claiming that the sky is falling.

    [ Edited by amigadave 18.10.2015 - 10:34 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »18.10.15 - 19:33
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  • MorphOS Developer
    itix
    Posts: 1514 from 2003/2/24
    From: Finland
    The sky is not falling. We already have good range of supported hardware, old and new, slow and fast, cheap and expensive, portable and desktops. Tabor motherboard offer nothing new to us.
    1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
  • »18.10.15 - 19:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2502 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Shastina,...
    Quote:

    itix wrote:
    The sky is not falling. We already have good range of supported hardware, old and new, slow and fast, cheap and expensive, portable and desktops. Tabor motherboard offer nothing new to us.


    We will see if the MorphOS Dev. Team decides if the A1222 is worth porting MorphOS to or not. I don't think it will be a system I am personally interested in buying, but there are many AmigaOS4.x users who have been begging for a cheaper system to purchase to run AmigaOS4.1FE on, and there might be a few MorphOS users who also want a new system that is lower priced than the X5000.

    I am not advocating a port to the A1222, but I am also not worried, nor will I complain if the MorphOS Dev. Team decides to support the A1222 by porting MorphOS to it. As has been stated several times already, the port of MorphOS to X64 or ARM hardware is going to take a long time.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »18.10.15 - 20:49
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1723 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Bigfoot told me at Neuss that they are not at all interested at porting MorphOS to this board and mentioned the incompatible FPU as one of the reasons.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »18.10.15 - 21:20
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 983 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ Yasu

    Frank Mariak posted a similar comment here on MorphZone the other day:
    MorphZone Post
  • »18.10.15 - 21:29
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