Lack of European response to new Russian sponsored agres
Topic is Locked
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    The unwillingness of our European allies to forcefully address the latest incidents in the the Ukraine does nothing to increase my sense of respect for Europeans in general.
    Sorry if this sounds offensive, but your interdependence with Russia has really made you all compromised weak apologists for a dictatorial aggressor.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.07.14 - 14:40
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Sure, its easy to try to turn this around, but we didn't shoot down a commercial airliner.

    How long do we continue to sanction this type of behavior?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.07.14 - 15:18
    Profile
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Roland
    Posts: 36 from 2013/2/10
    Please do some research and repeat that claim with the families of Iran Air Flight 655.
    hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

    If you also did some research on Europe, you would know why you can't compare Europe with the United States.

    And yes, many people in Europe also wonder whats happening and why nobody takes action.
  • »19.07.14 - 15:41
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11095 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > we didn't shoot down a commercial airliner.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

    Edit: I was too slow.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 19.07.2014 - 14:48 ]
  • »19.07.14 - 15:47
    Profile
  • MorphOS Developer
    Krashan
    Posts: 1107 from 2003/6/11
    From: Białystok...
    Jim, note also that it is easy to talk about starting a war some 15 000 kilometers from your own territory, being separated by an ocean. Isn't it? We simply do not want another war in Europe.
  • »19.07.14 - 16:13
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    stephen_robinson
    Posts: 745 from 2007/4/22
    [removed link]

    Maybe we need to work out what exactly happened, who was responsible before we send in the military?

    [ Edited by stephen_robinson 19.07.2014 - 14:23 ]
  • »19.07.14 - 16:16
    Profile
  • Moderator
    hooligan
    Posts: 1941 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    Jim, suggestions? Bomb Ukraine to stone age?
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »19.07.14 - 16:41
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    hooligan wrote:
    Jim, suggestions? Bomb Ukraine to stone age?


    Ah, a Curtis LeMay quote! Well psychotic or not, it was a honest answer.
    Glad to see I have stirred a few of you up.

    It was my intent to be a bit offensive, so I won't bother apologizing.

    Can I compare people from the US to Europeans?
    Why not? Many of us are descended from European ancestors.

    So many of you would like to hold yourselves above us, but its not like we didn't inherit our military legacy honestly.

    After all the idea of "peaceful Europeans" is a bit ridiculous.

    Now as to what can be done about Russia's promotion of violence in the Ukraine?

    A little public outcry wouldn't hurt.


    [ Edited by Jim 19.07.2014 - 10:03 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.07.14 - 17:01
    Profile
  • Moderator
    hooligan
    Posts: 1941 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myyrmanni_bombing
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150283/Finland-shooting-Hyvinkaa-gunman-18-kills-man-woman-wounds-7-others.html


    Thats how peaceful I feel in Finland.
    www.mikseri.net/hooligan <- Free music
  • »19.07.14 - 17:24
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    stephen_robinson
    Posts: 745 from 2007/4/22
    http://i.imgur.com/ubYX0jE.jpg

    "Murderers"
  • »19.07.14 - 17:36
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    OK Hooligan, your countryman and mine seem to share a fondness for guns, and we can get a little violent.

    So we're all agreed, violence seems universal.
    Still, is State sponsored political upheaval acceptable?
    Especially when it leads to something like this?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.07.14 - 17:41
    Profile
  • MorphOS Developer
    Krashan
    Posts: 1107 from 2003/6/11
    From: Białystok...
    > Still, is State sponsored political upheaval acceptable?
    > Especially when it leads to something like this?


    It is not. But what is your plan then?
  • »19.07.14 - 17:51
    Profile Visit Website
  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1252 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    The unwillingness of our European allies to forcefully address the latest incidents in the the Ukraine does nothing to increase my sense of respect for Europeans in general.
    Sorry if this sounds offensive, but your interdependence with Russia has really made you all compromised weak apologists for a dictatorial aggressor.


    Have you heard of Saudi Arabia, which happens to be the United States' second most important source for foreign oil (right after Canada)?

    Saudi Arabia Funding Terrorists
    Saudi Arabia Support ISIS in Iraq
  • »19.07.14 - 18:35
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Krashan wrote:
    > Still, is State sponsored political upheaval acceptable?
    > Especially when it leads to something like this?


    It is not. But what is your plan then?




    That really is a tough question.
    With Putin's high approval rating it has taken something like this to shake him up a little.
    Sanctions have limited effect and military action would be a bad idea.
    The UN is rather toothless and the Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

    We can't force the Russians to do something, especially when this situation isn't hurting Putin at home.

    A plan? I guess I don't have one except expressing outrage.
    And Putin could easily counter that this situation wouldn't have occurred without the other side fighting back.

    It is frustrating.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.07.14 - 18:45
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1988 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Sure, its easy to try to turn this around, but we didn't shoot down a commercial airliner.



    Neither did Russia (ignoring the incidents when the US actually did).

    Quote:


    How long do we continue to sanction this type of behavior?




    Both the US and Russia play a rather dirty game with Ukraine, Russia's involvement is just a bit more obvious.

    Most plausible scenario sofar:
    Some east-ukrainian cabbage farmers got their hand on some anti-aircraft missiles from the Ukrainian army and thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian air-force plane.

    Yes its possible that those missiles were directly provided by Russia.
    It's also possible that Russia provided some training.
    It's even possible (just not plausible) that someone shoot down that plan on purpose.

    Sofar we haven't seen any proof supporting those possibilities and it's also quite obvious that one should only react on things one is pretty sure to have actually happened.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »19.07.14 - 19:47
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    The unwillingness of our European allies to forcefully address the latest incidents in the the Ukraine does nothing to increase my sense of respect for Europeans in general.
    Sorry if this sounds offensive, but your interdependence with Russia has really made you all compromised weak apologists for a dictatorial aggressor.


    Have you heard of Saudi Arabia, which happens to be the United States' second most important source for foreign oil (right after Canada)?

    Saudi Arabia Funding Terrorists
    Saudi Arabia Support ISIS in Iraq


    Oh trust me, I am very uncomfortable with our relationship with the Saudis (the only oil refinery in my State was designed specifically for Saudi crude oil).
    After all, the 9/11 terrorists were primarily Saudis (which makes our later military adventures all the more confusing).

    I'm not attempting to justify US policies here.
    This thread is a direct response to my own concerns over recent increases in Russian aggression.

    And Kronos, it was Russian sponsored rebels.
    Any other conclusions seem far fetched.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.07.14 - 20:25
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    It seems that going to war is a solution to everything. Just look at Iraq, Afganistan, Vietnam, Somalia, Korea and so on ...

    I'm not saying that patting Putin on his shoulder, politely telling him to stop or ignoring the problem is a good policy. Just that the whole "Hey dude, now you pissed me off! Suck my rockets, scum!" hasn't historically made things better (with some (arguably) noticable exceptions).

    Oh, um, Putin has nukes. The other ones didn't and look how well fighting with them has been going nonetheless ...
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »19.07.14 - 20:41
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    They got nukes, we got nukes, all God's chillun got nukes.

    Ah, they won't use them, neither would we.

    But they also have tanks, guns, soldiers, etc (and we already know they have missiles).

    THAT could be problematic.

    So I guess we are left with growling at him.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.07.14 - 20:48
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2660 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Can I compare people from the US to Europeans?
    Why not? Many of us are descended from European ancestors.


    But you can't compare the US to the EU. The former is a federation acting as one country, the latter is merely a union of several very different countries with very different views and priorities. And the EU doesn't have one common, central military force either. With few exceptions (France and the UK comes to mind) all Europe's nations military is entirely focused on defense of the homeland, not offense. So even if you would like "the Europeans"(!) to play "hardball"(?!) with Russia in other ways than those already in practice (sanctions and embargos), it simply wouldn't be possible. And even if it was possible, it wouldn't happen, for the same reason as why the US would never go offensive military wise against Russia.


    Quote:

    After all the idea of "peaceful Europeans" is a bit ridiculous.


    But there is nothing ridiculous about Peace in Europe!


    Quote:

    Now as to what can be done about Russia's promotion of violence in the Ukraine?


    An escalation of what is already being done; increased sanctions and embargos against Russia. I'm sure we will see more of this very soon. The ultimate "peaceful" blow the Europe could give Russia, would be to stop buying their natural gas. This would really smash the balls of Russia's economy, it would be a *severe* blow, a *crippling* blow. Only problem is that it would also hurt large parts of Europe who literally depends on this gas for energy, especially during the winter. But I suppose if there's will there's a way, and AFAIK steps are being taken.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »19.07.14 - 21:24
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    OK grandma, I see your point about European unity.

    And regardless of how equipped our military is, taking on the Russians isn't an option (heck, I actually like many Russians).
    Also, I know we can't dictate politics in the Ukraine.

    But we also can't tolerate Russian backed militia men blowing commercial aircraft out of the sky with surface to air missiles.

    And you know the Europeans won't embargo Russian gas (its not like the US would offer to step in a supply the missing resource - even though we have plenty of natural gas).

    I'm as frustrated as hell by the lack of options.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.07.14 - 21:41
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2660 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    (its not like the US would offer to step in a supply the missing resource - even though we have plenty of natural gas).


    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    Ethics and good international reputation aren't USA's only shortages, you know. ;-) Look, nobody is doubting your US patriotism a nice Saturday evening like this, but maybe you should tone down your "we the US carry the world on our shoulders" crap a bit? ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »19.07.14 - 23:02
    Profile
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Derringer
    Posts: 103 from 2008/8/4
    From: Budapest, Hung...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    The unwillingness of our European allies to forcefully address the latest incidents in the the Ukraine does nothing to increase my sense of respect for Europeans in general.
    Sorry if this sounds offensive, but your interdependence with Russia has really made you all compromised weak apologists for a dictatorial aggressor.


    Cui prodest,as Seneca said.

    If you think about it you will realize, that nor Russia, nor The Separatist in east Ukraine has no reason to shot down that airplane. Ukraine as a puppet(backed by USA) has a reason. Until that day you can call the separatist terrorist, but the rest of the world is know that there were no terrorist in the separatist "army". Maybe a bunch of men who're fighting against the official state. But there were no bombs at the railway stations, no kidnappings innocent people etc.Now they can be called terrorist, because they shot down an aeroplan with a lots of innocent civilian. (Truth is or not, who has the biggest media) The casus belli is done. If you remeber Lousitania for example...

    This is a sad story, USA wants war, we not.

    Before i forget, my country, even people in my family fought 4 times against the russians in the last 150 years. Bloody wars. So we need to be more offensive?

    When the communist regimes "overthrow" in 89'-90 in east and Central Europe (backed by CIA) everyone hates the russians. Simply because the second world war and the military occupancy. After 25 years, here, no one hates the russians. (It does not mean that anyone or everyone loves them)

    So it is nice to say we can fight, argue etc against russia, but the truth is Under Russian Occupancy we have Factories, Army, and a slower life. etc, now under the occupancy of USA our factories must have to destroyed,they bring corrupt goverments who sold most the land for nothing, and get superlative economical credits, which're spent on our goodwill and to enhance our indusrty...

    wait, no, we must spend it on multinational companies.


    So this time my suggestion is that this 3-4 man who're induce the conflict leave out the rest of the world, get a gun and play it with each other in a motel room. The winner takes all, and there will be no need to die 100M man again.



    [ Edited by Derringer 19.07.2014 - 22:42 ]
    MorphOS PowerBook G4 1,67GHz, 2GB Ram, 250GBHdd, ATI 9700/128MB
    Morphos G5 2,7GHz, 8GB Ram, 500GB Hdd, ATi Passive cooled 9800 PRO/128MB
  • »19.07.14 - 23:37
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4913 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    ...maybe you should tone down your "we the US carry the world on our shoulders" crap a bit? ;-)



    Perhaps...then again, no.
    Its kind of been a tradition since WWII.

    And btw, friends or not, you are a burden.

    As soon as NATO doesn't need us, maybe.
    It would be nice not to have to spend billions overseas...

    And every nation that hosts our troops is certainly tired of it.

    Maybe one day, when we all play fair.

    But right now, we need to remain united and avoid the complacency that will allow fascism a chance to return.

    And trust me on this, the Russians were never Communists, they were totalitarian fascists.
    And now they look back on those days as their "glory" period.
    Their ambition to return to this glory make them dangerous.

    Oh and as to the later suggestion that the Ukranian's themselves used a Soviet ground to air missile launch vehicle to bring down that aircraft, well, that's laughable.

    It is interesting how quickly the Russians moved those launchers back into their country.



    [ Edited by Jim 19.07.2014 - 18:34 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.07.14 - 00:32
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1988 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    And Kronos, it was Russian sponsored rebels.
    Any other conclusions seem far fetched.



    Did anybody seriously suggest otherwise ?

    Just as far as how much the Russians were involved in this incident (by providing then missiles or training) is completly unknown.

    Something similar could just as much happen with US sponsored rebells in Syria.....


    Quote:

    And btw, friends or not, you are a burden.


    With the long standing history of failed US foreign policy from south america to Iran and rushing into pointless wars without a proper cause nor plan (Vietnam, Irak just to name the biggest f##kups) I can wholehearty give that back at you guys !

    @Derringer

    Quote:

    Ukraine as a puppet(backed by USA) has a reason.


    Yeah, and 9/11 was an inside job, the CIA killed JFK and Marilyn.....

    The Ukraine and US may use that disaster as a PR piece, doesn't mean they are resposnible.

    The rebells may not have motive, but they do have barely trained men shooting at anything they think is an Ukrainian military aircraft.

    Now add that there is only one party making access to and investigation at the crash site harder and it gets even more obvious.



    [ Edited by Kronos 20.07.2014 - 04:30 ]
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »20.07.14 - 05:28
    Profile
Topic is Locked