Hi there,

some recent expressions of a user calling Poseidon a steaming pile of sh*t (because he couldn't get the update working on his machine) made me think, if it really was so a good idea to release an intermediate version of Poseidon for MorphOS. I know, some of you got Poseidon working on their machines and are not as pissed off as wealthy and successful Mr. Jasper K. Abraxxis.

I will explain some of the problems and their potential reasons:

a) USB.mprefs crashes on some machines.
This seems to affect a lot of users, but unfortunately, not mine or the beta testers that tested it. I suppose (!) this is due to an old version of the prefs framework program that loads USB.mprefs with not enough stack or something similar. Could be fixed, if I knew exactly what happens. But I'm unable to reproduce it here and the stack traces did not give the information needed.
Maybe it could be fixed by simply using the Preferences program of MOS1.5.

b) The boot image problem. Poseidon 2.2 is loaded from the MorphOS 1.4.5 image. This causes some evil problems I did not think of when I released V3.2. If USB mass storage devices are connected while booting, they will be mounted by Poseidon V2.2, causing the massstorage.class to be in use and making it unable to be expunged to be replaced by the new version for V3.2. Moreover, once you saved the mass storage class prefs with V3.x, this causes the old class to crash once IPrefs loads the new prefs from disk (due to the larger prefs stuff overwriting memory). To make it short: All these attempts to replace the old version of Poseidon from the boot image are going to cause a mess somehow or the other -- unless you really have no USB devices connected during booting. Either that or you're using a boot.img that contains no Poseidon stuff -- which is currently not available.

c) IPrefs of V1.4.5 restarts the stack whenever the file ENV:Sys/poseidon.prefs changes. This causes disconnecting/reconnecting sounds to be played, PoPo requesters to reappear etc. This sucks. Can only be fixed by using a MOS V1.5 IPrefs command.

d) uhciusb.device /is/ buggy. There's nothing to argue about. This causes less USB devices to work that do their job flawlessly on the classic amiga systems with Algor, Highway or Subway USB cards. New ehci/ohci drivers are part of MOS 1.5, that might work better and with higher speed. Unfortunately, MOS 1.5 is not available yet.

My conclusion is that Poseidon V3.2 cannot run nicely on a MOS V1.4.x system. I am very sorry for this. Now, I think it was a mistake releasing the MorphOS version prior to MOS V1.5.

I am therefore considering retracting Poseidon V3.x for MorphOS until MorphOS V1.5 is released. And no, I don't know when MOS V1.5 is going to see the light of day. I've got not the faintest idea when that's going to happen, if at all.

What are your opinions? What should I make of this situation that agitates some users to insult me and my work?

This is actually the bad problem on MorphOS. Many don't really get that people asking for 1.5 don't want to go to their friends and say "Hey I have got 1.5!!!11" neither they want to troll around about mos update. It is just that something work for you and not for us, and viceversa.

Really ugly.

Just let the situation as it is, with a disclaimer in the archive about that.

the only thing I can think of would require yet more work.

Would it be possible to remove support for the build in prefs for intermediate releases? Would it be possible to change names of prefs files, processes, or whatever to "_name" instead of "name"?

About users, you can only do the best you can to inform users, or in some cases warn them, about possible issues. Take everything with a grain of salt. I've already ran into several users that have had great success with the new version. On the other hand, users should be just as responsable for their own words as anyone else.

@ platon42

The "this component requires components only available in MorphOS1.5" is a classic annoyance. And the fact that MorphOS1.5 isn't available, and nowhere in sight, is indeed a problem.

Maybe you have better insight in the MorphOS1.5 release situation than us "regular users", and maybe you are in a better position to judge if it's worth spending the time and effort for an updated "interim" release of Poseidon, aimed for 1.4.x systems? I mean, perhaps there are some things that may be relatively easy effortless to do, and make many people happy? But if some progress may be happening on the MorphOS1.5 front soon, then what's the point? Ask Ralph Schmidt!

I see no reason to detract Poseidon v3.x. It's out, and I'm sure it can be of value for some? Maybe put some warnings about these issues, and let people decide for themselves if they want to upgrade?

It is very sad if it's true that you are getting insults from this. My opinion - don't pay attention and/or tell them to piss off until MorphOS1.5 arrives.

Here is one that really appreciates your work!

You know, I've impressed more than one WIndows user with how cool Poseidon is, and it is even cooler by far than USB on my OS X Mac. Who knows what its doing? How do I find out? This is but one reason why Poseidon makes USB on MorphOS the best USB anywhere! I can only hope you are being asked to write the firewire stack so that it too can ROXXOR!!11 when it comes out

I installed the 3.2 Poseidon on my Pegasos I with MOS 1.4.5, and now it boots but as soon as the workbench screen comes up, the mouse pointer disappears from the corner of the screen and the box is useless. No mouse action, but I do have keyboard. I can then make the pointer reappear by moving it downward with ctrl+leftcmd+arrow key.

I'm not in any way pissed. I took my chances on beta software. Usually in MOS land it works out for me, this time it did not

How can I revert back, or at least help you in some way by finding out what is going on?

A bit sad really if some users fall as low as ridiculing the author and the software on public forums instead of writing an email with detailed info of the bug/problem.

Yeah dont let it get to you. Far more uf us like your software then those that do not. Just keep up the great work. I dont see MOS1.5 comming to the masses any time soon.

I'd support Targhan's suggestion - in case it would be possible for you without too much work.

Who knows when - if ever - 1.5 will be released. Given how long it's been already in use by a selected few, it could as well take another year or two. So creating a working intermediate version for a non-1.5-components-"poisoned" environment does absolutely make sense to me.

And accompanying your current release with big disclaimers is IMHO the best possible solution for immediate reaction - since taking it down completely (and thus creating another case of a basically working software everyone knows about but which is available to a selected elite only) might yet again disgruntle some people.

Regarding those people already being disgruntled, I'd say a quick guide (only in case it's not that easy) how to completely restore 2.x after the 3.2 install should be sufficient. We are all just humans, so everyone should understand your little oversight of not considering right from the start what you've written now. Thus please don't take the small handful of vocal complainants to heart - there's obviously a silent majority which does really appreciate your great work. Thank you for that!

@ platon42

I have everything, except the USB.mprefs, working here and it works VERY WELL. Poseidon 3.2 is really great. Even CF cards which didnt work up to now, do now. I also use several Wacom Tablets (Intuos2 and Intuos3) which are working without any problems!!!!

IMHO, Poseidon 3.x is really great software!!!! So PLEASE continue to develop it and ignore those user which insults you, they should anyway use Microsh*t so they can experience what real sh*t is!

Regards

Christoph

I think it's good that you've released it now.
As we have no influence on the 1.5 plans
it's important that the information what is
expected to work and what not is spread.
So this thread is the very best you can do.

I dont want to miss Poseidon 3 !

Sounds fair.

Quote:
Even if it was technically a problem, because of the problems it may cause,... it shows at least one person cares about the users. It also shows progress is made. People are happy to test new components,... Even if some have complained (you can release something as perfect as possible, there will always be people to complain anyway...).

Quote:
Anyone from the team to comment on this "if at all" ?

Leo.

@platon42

I would like to say Thank you for the terrific work you did on Poseidon V3.2 my Respect to you.
Please don't pay attention to those people.

@platon42:
Keep up the excellent work, and don't pay any attention to useless critics. If someone could do it better, why don't they either contribute something useful (like a proper bug report) or do it themselves?

As for the MOS 1.5 question itself, why don't we start calling a cat "cat"? I'm by no means trying to troll or flame or whatever, but I think that some people are playing with user's expectations (maybe it's just a honest mistake; again, maybe not). Why doesn't anyone from the MOS team (who have earned my highest respects through their excellent work) tell us what is _really_ happenning? (I think that most of us have ideas of our own on why MOS 1.5, but they are just conjectures). Maybe we, the MOS community, can find a way out of it together (the bounty system proves that there is a well-knit MOS community, doesn't it?).

Of course, all of this just states my current point of view, as well as my sincere wishes that MOS will continue to "grow".

Since this is a new year that is beginning, maybe it is the right time to ask ourselves the right questions.

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but thanks for the patience!

Kind regards, and my best wishes for you all in this new year!

Gonzalo Meza a.k.a. Winterhunter

Programs, that depend on newer version of another program (that isn't released) is a bad problem really... And sometimes you can't even do any temporary workarounds.

I was thinking this was the case with the new 3D drivers aswell, but luckily I was proven wrong (which means, I could FINALLY remove all tinygl.library 0.2 workarounds, and the programs would work on Radeon gfx cards aswell)

But back to poseidon... Before the release I beta tested it, and found some problems (which I privately reported to the author, of course). It did couse a few crashes, and forced me to change my configuration a bit (which meant that I couldn't use my joystick at all) but I'm not complaining, as I knew that it is beta (even if I had a bit too high hopes )

But since then those problems are fixed and the new version is publicly available. It also contains some important updates (such as better support for analog joysticks) so at least for me there's no going back, even if it worked worse in some other ways (works nicely here though... But I haven't obviously tried everything)

Poseidon v3 works well for me :

- I don't connect masstorage devices permanently to my peg, I usually use them as a means of transferring files between my PC and my Peg

- Using trident is fine with me

- my devices are correctly handled by uhciusb.device

- PoPo sucks anyway, I have disabled it.

- It has support for Wacom tablets. Yay!

Now I think a disclaimer is enough and you don't need retracting.

BUT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT MOS 1.5!

EHCI would really be sweet. Really. Full-speed sucks as far as masstorage devices are concerned.
My two cents. And again, thanks Chris for v3, you rock.

Serge

@Chris

a) "Maybe it could be fixed by simply using the Preferences program of MOS1.5."

b)"Either that or you're using a boot.img that contains no Poseidon stuff -- which is currently not available."

c) "Can only be fixed by using a MOS V1.5 IPrefs command."

Why don't ask to the MOS developer team for these components? (maybe restricted for "use-only" with Poseidon3.2)

PS- i'm not using any USB device on my MOS-PuP/AOS3.9 installations


[ Edited by Framiga on 2006/1/4 21:45 ]

You don't get that he has MorphOS 1.5 and he can make it work only on it (or the work needed to make it work on 1.45 would be too much). That is the problem.

Nice to see a post from you platon42

I haven't tested Poseidon3.x because of issues from other users, I prefer to wait MOS1.5 to be ready to use it.

I know your situation is quite complicated since Poseidon is linked with MOS1.5... My opinion is to wait for MOS1.5 instead of having some people angry against you...

Well now, like all MOS users, I'm waiting for some MOS1.5 news...

Thank you Platon 42 !

And the pressure accumulates - people demanding 1.5

I'm just glad that 42 has spoken publicly about poseidon. At least it gives everyone a glimpse of what's going on inside of it's development. Thanks 42.

I'm eager to try this update, regardless if it works well or not with
my 1.4.5. At least it seems to satisfy some people. Thanks a lot for
releasing it! :)

As for developers showing "1.5" for years, well.. what they have shown
is some bits and pieces they have been working on, not a finished
release. Sure, these developers "use" it, but that's like people
living in a house under construction. You can do it if you're aware
that walking through some doors will make you fall down a deep shaft,
and that you shouldn't lean against some walls or they will fall down.
And you'd better wear a hard hat in any case as stuff may fall down
and hit you at any time (and often does).

I don't think it's all that remarkable that MOS1.5 has been in
development for 28 months or so now without any imminent release date
in sight. Windows Longhorn was started even earlier and also isn't
released yet.

Also, I think that it's to be expected that some of this "1.5 only"
software that turns out not to work with 1.4.5, will actually *also*
not work with the real 1.5. I assume that 1.5 is not released for a
reason, and that things may still change, requiring changes to
software that relies on currently internal features.

Quote:
My conclusion is that Poseidon V3.2 runs to my complete satisfaction on my MOS V1.4.5 system. I happily registered and received the key (thanks!), and the annoying popups are gone. Since V3.2 supports at least one bit of USB HW more than the 2.2 for me (my cheap USB joypad), I'm more than happy with it, and I definitely don't regret registering.
The most annoying problem for many users seems to be the mprefs module crash. If that helps, I can tell that it seems to disappear once you install the public MUI4 alpha. While called alpha, MUI4 is indeed as stable as MUI 3.9 on MOS, so for most users it shouldn't be that big deal (and they'll gain something else from the switch).
I didn't experience the other problems, so I'll refrain from commenting. But for me it was a good update. And I'd like to see more coming, MOS 1.5 or not.

Kind regards,
Andrea

Poseidon 3.2 runs smoothly here, no crashes, running rock solid and very useful. I haven't registered yet but i will asap. Thanks for it Platon42.

btw, i got MUI4 alpha too. Never had any pref crash.

Here the same no problems with V3.2 using MUI4 Alpha!