ARM for the future?
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Update:

    Project Denver Holdings LLC (NewCo), a new company backed by The Carlyle Group.[/i]“


    Curious choice of name, Project Denver was the code name of Nvidia's v8 core.

    In other news Cray are going ARM (Camium X2).

    Qualcomm are shipping their 48 core monster and it's getting some very good numbers.
  • »24.11.17 - 23:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »25.11.17 - 00:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12085 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Cray are going ARM (Camium X2).

    You mean Cavium (soon Marvell) ThunderX2? If yes, that‘s a nice use for the Vulcan core acquired from Broadcom.
  • »25.11.17 - 00:40
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
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    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/12/hp-asus-announce-first-windows-10-arm-pcs-20-hour-battery-life-gigabit-lte/
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  • »06.12.17 - 16:28
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/12/hp-asus-announce-first-windows-10-arm-pcs-20-hour-battery-life-gigabit-lte/


    The long battery life could be something that would draw me. I'm tired of being tethered to an outlet.
    But native ARM applications are going to be a must, X86 apps that use any serious power will definitely slow this platform down.
    Still, as it will run all Windows applications, it would be a nice bridge between ISA/devices.


    [ Edited by Jim 06.12.2017 - 19:50 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.12.17 - 01:50
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/12/hp-asus-announce-first-windows-10-arm-pcs-20-hour-battery-life-gigabit-lte/


    The long battery life could be something that would draw me. I'm tired of being tethered to an outlet.
    But native ARM applications are going to be a must, X86 apps that use any serious power will definitely slow this platform down.
    Still, as it will run all Windows applications, it would be a nice bridge between ISA/devices.



    Windows itself will be native of course, as will all of its components and drivers, as well ass Microsofts own productivity SW, Internet SW and media SW. Speed in the video showing the emulated Photoshop session above in this thread is totally acceptable IMHO, and that test was conducted on an "old", existing ARM CPU. New CPU's come, and with Microsoft doing this move, opening the gates so to say, more CPU's aimed and taylored for real laptops (and maybe even desktops down the road?) will definitely follow.

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »07.12.17 - 08:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12085 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it will run all Windows applications

    Only x86, i.e. 32-bit ones (while native AArch64 applications will be supported, of course).
  • »07.12.17 - 09:51
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > it will run all Windows applications

    Only x86, i.e. 32-bit ones (while native AArch64 applications will be supported, of course).


    Ah, missed that, no 64bit compatibility. Not that big a deal, but interesting.
    And the emulation speed, instead of acceptable, I'd rather term it adequate.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »07.12.17 - 15:55
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1370 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Windows itself will be native of course, as will all of its components and drivers, as well ass Microsofts own productivity SW, Internet SW and media SW. Speed in the video showing the emulated Photoshop session above in this thread is totally acceptable IMHO, and that test was conducted on an "old", existing ARM CPU.

    The 32bit memory restrictions are a serious limitation when you deal with many, heavily layered, large resolution and / or high color depth files (or even videos which Photoshop can in fact edit).

    Just merely painting with high resolution brushes can make many high-performance systems struggle to avoid noticeable lag.

    Of course, basic photo editing should be just fine. But you do not need Photoshop for that either. (Photoshop Elements should suffice.) The implication is that people will be able to use "pro tools" on ARM via x86 emulation and, while technically true, I would keep expectations reasonably modest in that regard.

    I was surprised to read the price points that were mentioned for some of these ARM systems this week. Asus and HP will charge around 800 EUR per device next year. For comparison, you can buy, say, a Dell XPS 13 with 14 to 15 hours of battery time for around the same price today and that will get you the full x64 experience without the forementioned limitations.
  • »07.12.17 - 20:39
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @ASiegel

    I wasn’t aware of any 32-bit limitation until I learned about it from Andreas above. I wonder about the reason? I recall Ben Hermans mentioning legal issues Microsoft was having regarding the ISA emulation at AW.net, but I discarded that as usual BH BS. Could that be the reason? Legal protectionism surrounding the 64-bit ISA?

    And regarding the price you mention, that was surprising as well. I understood it as the ARM move was MS’s way of reaching ultra-cheap segments...?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »07.12.17 - 21:34
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
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    https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2017/11/08/qualcomm-centriq-2400-worlds-first-10nm-server-processor
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  • »08.12.17 - 20:23
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12085 from 2003/5/22
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    >>> I recall Ben Hermans mentioning legal issues Microsoft was having regarding
    >>> the ISA emulation at AW.net, but I discarded that as usual BH BS.

    >> He was probably referring to this: [...]

    > That refers to Intel's x86 ISA not AMD's AMD64 ISA so it wouldn't explain the
    > lack of 64bit support.

    Yes, I only replied to what I quoted :-) Or was Ben Hermans referring to x64 ISA specifically?
  • »08.12.17 - 20:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12085 from 2003/5/22
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    > https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2017/11/08/qualcomm-centriq-2400-worlds-first-10nm-server-processor

    I guess that's what minator referred to two weeks ago in comment #931.
  • »08.12.17 - 20:59
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> I recall Ben Hermans mentioning legal issues Microsoft was having regarding
    >>> the ISA emulation at AW.net, but I discarded that as usual BH BS.

    >> He was probably referring to this: [...]

    > That refers to Intel's x86 ISA not AMD's AMD64 ISA so it wouldn't explain the
    > lack of 64bit support.

    Yes, I only replied to what I quoted :-) Or was Ben Hermans referring to x64 ISA specifically?


    No idea Andreas, I'd rather have my teeth drilled than read his drivel lol
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  • »08.12.17 - 22:47
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> was Ben Hermans referring to x64 ISA specifically?

    > I'd rather have my teeth drilled than read his drivel

    Found it ;-)

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42062&forum=25#801829

    I was spot on that he referred to Intel's roundabout (and apparently vain) threat to Microsoft from June.


    Well spotted! :)

    I'm not a lawyer but it's been more than 20yrs since Motorola filed it's 68000 patents. Lol

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent
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  • »08.02.18 - 16:06
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Apple dropping Intel in favor of their own CPU. Very interesting! :-)

    Must be ARM based, since that's where Apple has been working the last couple of years.

    This is what I predicted a long time ago. It makes sense, they will be in full control their entire eco-system.

    It was years ago that Apple showed their first in-house design that surpassed Core i7 in many ways, design wise, and not many generations later they were able to deliver real Core i5 (laptop) performance. And this with a battery powered, passively cooled CPU running in the ~1GHz range. They weren't lying when they claimed "desktop class CPU" in their marketing materials.

    Imagine if they would add a few more cores and construct the chip for optimal heat dissipation using powerful heatsinks with fans, and clock it in the range of 3-4GHz? I have no doubt that they will be able to create a powerful desktop/workstation class CPU able to compete with Intel. Their designs has for years been "over the top" for just phones and ipads, it has shown desktop ambitions all along...

    :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »03.04.18 - 10:35
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2242 from 2003/2/24
    As posted in that other thread, this is just an unsustained rumor.

    Same one was floating around 2-3 years ago and it turned out that "Apple will use ARM in Macs" was just a controller chip for the touchbar and some security features.

    Possible outcome:

    Apple will continue on the effort on making IOS a full blown OS right to the point where the girl in the iPad-add asking "what is a computer" becomes reality.

    At that point an iPadPro and beefed up AppleTV6 might compete with the MacBook and MacMini and if the big OSX-apps get a full version for iOS we might see the Mac fade away.

    But not in in 2020.
  • »03.04.18 - 11:02
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 404 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    This is what I predicted a long time ago. It makes sense, they will be in full control their entire eco-system.


    Do they have the factories to produce those chips?
  • »03.04.18 - 12:01
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    As posted in that other thread, this is just an unsustained rumor.

    Same one was floating around 2-3 years ago and it turned out that "Apple will use ARM in Macs" was just a controller chip for the touchbar and some security features.


    No, this is a different rumour, it names a specific project and says the executives have given the go-ahead.

    Last time they switched there was a rumour in the Wall Street journal. It turned out Steve Jobs had a friend there...



    Apple have already shown they can produce fast chips, they're not as fast as i7s but that's because you can't produce an i7 in 5 Watts. Going into a laptop or a desktop gives them the higher power they need to build an i7 class chip.

    Beating Intel is not impossible, Qualcomm are already beating the Xeon E5s with lower power and lower price.
  • »03.04.18 - 14:56
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    asrael22
    Posts: 404 from 2014/6/11
    From: Germany
    I hope not.
    I remember the time when Apple switched over to x86.
    Every developer (including me) had to do extra stuff to support both architectures (PPC, x86) resulting in extra large binaries.
    Now Apple has managed so that there is only one architecture left to support on the desktop, which is x86_64.
    Switching over to ARM returns all the shit.
    Yes, Xcode helps a lot in building multi-arch binaries. But there are a large number of ports which are makefile based that need to be tweaked to support more architectures.

    Manfred
  • »03.04.18 - 15:39
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