ARM for the future?
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    How's this for a bit more meaty board at $299.

    http://liliputing.com/2016/03/lemaker-cello-dev-board-features-amds-64-bit-arm-chip.html

    It's got the AMD quad core A57.
    It also has a PCIe x16 slot, SATA, GigE and USB3.0.
    So ARM cores but with more useful interfaces.


    I think it's all about to get interesting.
    Intel has been ahead for a long time because of their process tech and because they're invariably first to deploy it.
    For 10nm it's looking like that's all about to change, Samsung and TSMC both look like they'll be in production before Intel.
    Intel has also had an advantage because they are not limited by phone power constraints (anything over a few Watts is to hot for a phone).
    Desktops or servers don't have these power constraints so can use higher clock speeds and faster memory.

    So far the ARM server chips have been on processes a node or 2 behind so nothing to worry Intel. However use a cutting edge process and all that changes. There's a lot of companies who want to build ARM server chips and once one does it they'll all follow. Qualcomm are jumping in at 16nm.

    As I said, it's all about to get rather interesting.
  • »09.03.16 - 22:51
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
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    An idea:

    MorphOS could adopt 68k binaries as it's "bytecode standard" in a Java-esque manner and then have the kernel running natively on AMD64, ARM, PPC or whatever CPU with everything else being run in the JIT compiler similar to Android.

    Would save tying the whole OS to one CPU architecture.

    Stupid idea?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »11.03.16 - 13:40
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  • Jim
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    Quote:

    ausPPC wrote:
    Yeah, what was I thinking - how could MorphOS *possibly* benefit from being ported to a platform that is marketed to and has specific appeal to young people interested in learning how to program?


    Young/old, its hard to consider a Linux or Android OS a good environment to start learning to code under.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.03.16 - 21:53
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    ausPPC wrote:
    Yeah, what was I thinking - how could MorphOS *possibly* benefit from being ported to a platform that is marketed to and has specific appeal to young people interested in learning how to program?


    Young/old, its hard to consider a Linux or Android OS a good environment to start learning to code under.



    You do know why the Raspberry Pi exists?

    The UK education system gave up teaching programming years ago, it wasn't producing enough programmers companies could employ. The original Raspberry Pi was developed explicitly to counter this.

    They didn't just dump a random Linux Distro on it. They developed their own front end and had IIRC a Python based programming environment.
  • »13.03.16 - 22:28
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    minator wrote:
    So far the ARM server chips have been on processes a node or 2 behind so nothing to worry Intel. However use a cutting edge process and all that changes.


    I know talking to yourself is the first sign of madness and all that but...

    First numbers for the X-Gene 3 place it at Xeon performance levels.

    http://www.linleygroup.com/cms_builder/uploads/x-gene-3-white-paper-final.pdf
  • »23.04.16 - 00:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
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    > http://www.linleygroup.com/cms_builder/uploads/x-gene-3-white-paper-final.pdf

    Looking at this document made me realize that the core of the X-Gene and HeliX SoCs is called "Potenza". I can't remember I ever read this before, but googling reveals this has been mentioned in Linux kernel mailing list etc. since 2013. Usage of Potenza cores in APM SoCs is as follows:

    - Potenza in X-Gene 1 and HeliX 1
    - Potenza+ in X-Gene 2 and HeliX 2
    - Potenza++ in X-Gene 3

    http://www.google.com/search?q=%22x-gene%22+%22potenza%22
  • »23.04.16 - 06:58
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    ausPPC wrote:
    Yeah, what was I thinking - how could MorphOS *possibly* benefit from being ported to a platform that is marketed to and has specific appeal to young people interested in learning how to program?


    Young/old, its hard to consider a Linux or Android OS a good environment to start learning to code under.


    It hasn't done my kids any harm Jim. The only time they've ever used anything that isn't Linux is when they are forced to type letters in a word processor and other wastes of time on Windows at school. My eldest is 18 soon.

    Edit: He's used Logic Pro on OSX but prefers Renoise on his Linux laptop.

    [ Edited by Intuition 23.04.2016 - 14:39 ]
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

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  • »23.04.16 - 11:32
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    ARM-based roadmap contains next-gen SoC while Power-based roadmap doesn't. From this can be concluded that from NXP there will not only be no successor to the e6500/e6501 core (which was already evident before) but also no new SoC based on e6500/e6501 core.


    The PPC future looks very bright.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »28.05.16 - 16:06
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  • Jim
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    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    ARM-based roadmap contains next-gen SoC while Power-based roadmap doesn't. From this can be concluded that from NXP there will not only be no successor to the e6500/e6501 core (which was already evident before) but also no new SoC based on e6500/e6501 core.


    The PPC future looks very bright.


    Actually, that was a pretty good run at the end when you consider how many generations of Power have been created since Freescale was involved in creating cpus for desktop use.
    I, for one, am not crowing at the idea of returning (once again) to Intel.
    It isn't as painful as the last time, but there is still the lingering worry that if Intel's marketshare becomes too high that their creativity will stagnate.

    I hope we don't see another fiasco like the P4 in the future.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.05.16 - 12:57
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    @ Jim

    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    ARM-based roadmap contains next-gen SoC while Power-based roadmap doesn't. From this can be concluded that from NXP there will not only be no successor to the e6500/e6501 core (which was already evident before) but also no new SoC based on e6500/e6501 core.


    The PPC future looks very bright.


    Actually, that was a pretty good run at the end when you consider how many generations of Power have been created since Freescale was involved in creating cpus for desktop use.


    Come on, when Apple pulled the plug was when everything interesting stopped regarding PPC for our context. Essentially, it has merely been a long line of SoC's for printers and routers since then, more or less high end, but the same nevertheless, while true desktop developed in a different path. Since Apple moved away, PPC has been a very bad architecture for a desktop OS to have its future tied to...



    Quote:

    I, for one, am not crowing at the idea of returning (once again) to Intel.


    Why should anyone care about CPU, as long as it's powerful enough, available enough and cheap enough?

    Quote:

    It isn't as painful as the last time, but there is still the lingering worry that if Intel's marketshare becomes too high that their creativity will stagnate.


    There are illuminating examples in this very thread how the ARM architecture is catching up and starting to chase Intel with a blow torch in its ass in various market segments, with a trend that extrapolated suggests that this will become even more true in the future.

    Quote:

    I hope we don't see another fiasco like the P4 in the future.


    OMG, did you just put more emphasis on the P4 than a forgotten parenthesis in CPU history? :-o
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »30.05.16 - 18:13
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Sorry Grandma,
    We have a multitude of different opinions here.
    First, the best PPCs we support only use Power PC elements from up to Power4.
    IBM is promoting Power8 as an open standard, and is readying Power9.
    Both of these simply lay waste to any ARM processor.
    So dead? Hardly.
    I would love to see a Power8 MorphOS platform.

    And as to Intel's occassional misstep, the Pentium 4 was hardly the first one.
    Anyone remember the Pentium Pro?

    Ever since AMD introduced RISC cores to the X86 I have been very fond of them, and they did invent the X64 instruction set.
    Further, their built in gpus continue to surpass Intel's in performance.
    It will be interesting to see how their next core design fairs.

    All that being said, you are right about one thing, if its fast enough who cares what ISA is featured?
    Although, for my part, the P50XX is fast enough.

    [ Edited by Jim 31.05.2016 - 00:38 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.05.16 - 18:36
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    Kronos
    Posts: 2231 from 2003/2/24
    @Jim

    I'll take a Power4,5,6,7,8 or 9 over an ARM IF they manage to produce a low/mid power chip.

    Something suitable for a laptop (even if that never sees the light) or a small footprint desktop (miniITX,MacMini that kind of style). Sure a proper desktop would also be nice but not another Power4 server-CPU shoehorned into a 2ton tower (aka PowerMac_G5).
  • »31.05.16 - 15:03
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
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    > I'll take a Power4 [...] IF they manage to produce a low/mid power chip. [...]
    > not another Power4 server-CPU shoehorned into a 2ton tower (aka PowerMac_G5).

    Well, there's always the iMac G5 for a start :-)
  • »31.05.16 - 15:25
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    Kronos
    Posts: 2231 from 2003/2/24
    Which is anything BUT low power !
  • »31.05.16 - 15:50
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Which is anything BUT low power !


    Yeah, a high power chip stuck in an all-in-one design with gpus that have a fairly high failure rate.

    Low power Power8...
    I wonder if that is possible considering how massive the design is?

    A quick note - The ARM Cortex A73 looks interesting.
    By next year these should feature a new 16 core gpu that looks like a nice step forward as well.

    [ Edited by Jim 31.05.2016 - 14:48 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »31.05.16 - 16:42
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    Andreas_Wolf
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    > The ARM Cortex A73 looks interesting.

    Indeed. Thanks for the note. I missed the announcement.

    > a new 16 core gpu

    It's up to 32 cores in the Mali-G71.
  • »31.05.16 - 19:11
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  • Jim
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    Jim
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    >Its up to 32 cores...

    I missed that, I only saw an announcement that it would be up to 16 cores by the end of the year. 32? Great.

    Hmm, I seem to remember say I was in favor of a move to ARM instead of X64 (at least its still RISC).
    But then again I'd rather stick eith PPV for awhile as well.

    X64, hey...
    Since they have decided.

    But man, look at the negligible power draw of this latest 64bit ARM.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »31.05.16 - 21:11
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
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    >> http://www.cavium.com/newsevents-Cavium-Announces-Availability-of-ThunderX.html

    > Wow! :-o

    http://www.cavium.com/newsevents-Cavium-Announces-ThunderX2.html
    http://www.cavium.com/ThunderX2_ARM_Processors.html
  • »01.06.16 - 15:25
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1914 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    The only concern I have with an ARM switch if it were to happen is the lack of full featured hardware. You run into the same problem OS4.1 is having with custom high priced boards.
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  • »01.06.16 - 15:57
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Yasu
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    @Acill

    I don't think the Team would make such a mistake. The point of the switch is to have access to cheap, easy to find, of the shelf hardware.
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  • »02.06.16 - 11:35
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Acill
    Posts: 1914 from 2003/10/19
    From: Port Hueneme, Ca.
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    @Acill

    I don't think the Team would make such a mistake. The point of the switch is to have access to cheap, easy to find, of the shelf hardware.


    I would hope so. Looking more into it the only ARM boards I see are the small mini systems and some servers. The servers are not low cost for sure.
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  • »02.06.16 - 21:05
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  • Jim
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    Quote:

    Acill wrote:
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    @Acill

    I don't think the Team would make such a mistake. The point of the switch is to have access to cheap, easy to find, of the shelf hardware.


    I would hope so. Looking more into it the only ARM boards I see are the small mini systems and some servers. The servers are not low cost for sure.


    There are all sorts of lower cost ARM systems.
    You just have to look around to find them.
    The newer chips are usually only found on development boards or devices meant for hobbyist.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »02.06.16 - 22:35
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
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    Yasu
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    The problem as far as I understand it that it's usually one vendor that makes a certain ARM based board (usually RaPi clones), and once they are dropped from the market the Team would have to start over again.
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  • »03.06.16 - 21:19
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