> off the self x64 is out of the question, so until custom x86 becomes cheaper
> than custom PPC, let's stay with the PPC

Why must it be custom x86(-64) instead of off-the-shelf x86(-64)? And if we're talking about custom boards, then why shouldn't x86(-64) be cheaper than PPC considering that x86(-64) chips usually have better price-performance ratio and all other costs are similar?

>Andreas_Wolf wrote:

>> off the self x64 is out of the question, so until custom x86 becomes cheaper
>> than custom PPC, let's stay with the PPC

>Why must it be custom x86(-64) instead of off-the-shelf x86(-64)?

To build support for the HW.
Normal off the self x86 motherboards have production lifecycle of three months or so. (it takes months to reverse engineer the support for a HW componet when we can not get much documentation)

Industrial x86 boards have longer availability with higher price etc...

>And if we're talking about custom boards, then why shouldn't x86(-64) be cheaper than PPC

Only recently there has been x86 SoC chips with PCIex4 etc, so the board design would most likely require more components.
And from what I have found, usable x86 is not any cheaper than a usable PPC.

(but I'm not an expert, just learning etc...)

>considering that x86(-64) chips usually have better price-performance ratio and all other costs are similar?

Performance wise, yes, in that way price-performance ratio is better for x86.
(I believe a common 1.33Ghz x64 SoC has twice the performance of similarly clocked e5500 PPC, +SIMD +GPGPU)

For me, it is more like what we need than trying to compete with mainstream with CPU power.
Knowing how much better MOS runs on 1Ghz G4 vs Linux on younger 1.8Ghz AMD Sempron machine, some 1.4Ghz PPC would be ideal for LOW END NG miggy.
((T10xx consuming some 5W, I imagine it could be usable also in some (semi)mobile device))


(I personally prefer big endian + PowerPC as long as most of our SW is native on that etc...)

[ Edited by KimmoK 06.06.2014 - 11:45 ]

@Andreas_Wolf

G5 is 64 bit, right? So before a possible move we could base the Next Gen MorphOS on that. Or maybe PPC by then becomes a resonable candidate again. Then having a working 64 bit MorphOS with all the goodies could make the job easier. Maybe.

I just want a modern AmigaOS. MorphOS is by far the closest. It doesn't have to be the fastest or the cheapest, but it needs to look forward and not back. If I know there is a future (which has been confirmed, but no details revealed nor signs that it's being worked on atm) I don't mind waiting.

>>> off the self x64 is out of the question, so until custom x86 becomes cheaper
>>> than custom PPC, let's stay with the PPC

>> Why must it be custom x86(-64) instead of off-the-shelf x86(-64)?

> Normal off the self x86 motherboards have production lifecycle of three months or so.
> [...] Industrial x86 boards have longer availability with higher price etc...

It's still cheaper to use industrial off-the-shelf x86 boards than custom x86 boards.

>> And if we're talking about custom boards, then why shouldn't x86(-64) be cheaper
>> than PPC

> Only recently there has been x86 SoC chips with PCIex4 etc, so the board design
> would most likely require more components.

Why more components? Intel offers multicore x86(-64) SoCs with 8 PCIe lanes, USB, SATA and GbE for 60 USD. That's about the same feature set as PPC SoCs (ignoring PPC's DIU, which isn't suited for real desktop use anyway). And Intel also offers multicore x86(-64) SoCs with 4 PCIe lanes, USB, SATA and 3D GPU for mere 30 USD. Here you'd only need a cheap separate Ethernet chip. Audio would be needed separately with all those solutions, including PPC SoCs.
From AMD you can get multicore x86(-64) SoCs with 8 PCIe lanes, USB, SATA, GbE (using one PCIe lane), HD audio and 3D GPU for 70 USD. That's really all-in-one.

> from what I have found, usable x86 is not any cheaper than a usable PPC.

Well, 30 USD for an Intel x86 SoC with 3D GPU (only lacking Ethernet compared to PPC) or 70 USD for an AMD x86 SoC with really everything needed. I think this would come out cheaper than PPC.

>>> I would rather see a 32 bit Amiga compatible PPC Mac plus a NG MorphOS 64 bit
>>> non-PPC machine worked on simultaneously. With the G5 you could even have
>>> both on the same machine as a stop gap measure.

>> A non-PPC OS on the G5? ;-)

> G5 is 64 bit, right?

Yes, and PPC :-)

> So before a possible move we could base the Next Gen MorphOS on that.

Yes, a 64-bit SMP OS would be doable on the G5, of course.

*double post*

@Andreas_Wolf

Is G4 64 bit?

> Is G4 64 bit?

No, G4 is 32-bit (with a 36-bit address bus).

@Andreas_Wolf

I thought so. So what do you mean by:

Quote:

> what do you mean by:
> Quote:

I mean that the G5 is not only a 64-bit CPU but also a PPC CPU :-)

64-bit and PPC, just like the PA6T, the P5020, the P5040, and the T1042.

So we have what we need without an ISA change.

@Andreas_Wolf

Ah, we are speaking of two different things then. But I understand the misunderstanding. I meant that IF MorphOS will be shifting to another CPU, then you can first work on a 64 bit version on the G5 since it's already supported.

Addendum:

>> "IIRC, Ben Hermanns is no longer a partner of A-Eon, since they
>> reformed in the UK and closed the Belgium based company."
>> http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35093&forum=32#651254

> And indeed, A-Eon's October 1st [2011] press release has been the last one where
> the company calls itself a CVBA. Starting with the one from October 12th [2011],
> all 8 subsequent press releases have missed the "CVBA" bit. So [...] Ben
> Hermans' involvement in A-Eon ceased somewhen between October 1st and
> October 12th [2011]

AmigaKit now claims this happened already one year earlier:

"Later on in late 2010, our role changed and we had to help get the project back on track."
http://www.amigakit.com/catalog/news.php?news_id=181#newsid181
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=767411
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7129

@Andreas_Wolf

somewhat stronger statement from March of this year

It's worth noting that he's stating for the record that Trevor was only a silent partner and not managing the company.

It's also worth noting that he's stating neither Amigakit nor Trevor were to blame due their roles at the time.

#6



[ Edited by number6 28.06.2014 - 09:40 ]

>> AmigaKit now claims this happened already one year earlier: [...]

> somewhat stronger statement from March of this year

Unfortunately, nothing there about the late 2010 vs. late 2011 discrepancy I was getting at.

@Andreas_Wolf

Understood. Wording makes this difficult. You could argue the following offers yet another date:

same thread as referred above

Quote:

That can mean he's been involved only in the last year OR he's only read comments with interest in the past year.

"involved" is a vague term regardless.

I don't think the specific info you are looking for is stated concisely anywhere.

#6

Quote:

It's possible that Trevor brought Amigakit onboard in a consulting role late 2010 to help get the X1000 development back on track under A-Eon CVBA, with the change to A-Eon Technology Ltd (and hence change in ownership & management) taking place in the October 2011 period.

> You could argue the following offers yet another date: [...]
> Quote:

I take this to be a mere typo, missing plural 's'. '2010' instead of '2011' could be a typo as well, of course.

> It's possible that Trevor brought Amigakit onboard in a consulting role late 2010 to
> help get the X1000 development back on track under A-Eon CVBA, with the change
> to A-Eon Technology Ltd (and hence change in ownership & management) taking
> place in the October 2011 period.

Yes, that's possible indeed.

Quote:

I highly doubt he sent them a _bare_ board. I'm sure it's fully populated with all the necessary components (and CPU). By "bare" I think he meant they were sent a functional motherboard only, not a complete system with case, drives, etc.

>>> I think that Rajinder refers to Dickinson sending the MorphOS Team a bare
>>> Rev2 Nemo board.

>> Man, I'm surprised they got that. But how were they supposed to assemble it
>> and where do you get a PA6T from?

> By "bare" I think he meant [...] a functional motherboard only, not a complete system
> with case, drives, etc.

Yes, I meant exactly that, as clarified by me 12 postings and 5 hours after the statement:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7183&forum=3&start=19

Quote:

I didn't bother to read the entire thread because I knew you would point out any oversight ;)

>>>>>> "IIRC, Ben Hermanns is no longer a partner of A-Eon, since they
>>>>>> reformed in the UK and closed the Belgium based company."
>>>>>> http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35093&forum=32#651254

>>>>> And indeed, A-Eon's October 1st [2011] press release has been the last one where
>>>>> the company calls itself a CVBA. Starting with the one from October 12th [2011],
>>>>> all 8 subsequent press releases have missed the "CVBA" bit. So [...] Ben
>>>>> Hermans' involvement in A-Eon ceased somewhen between October 1st and
>>>>> October 12th [2011]

>>>> AmigaKit now claims this happened already one year earlier:
>>>> "Later on in late 2010, our role changed and we had to help get the project
>>>> back on track."
>>>> http://www.amigakit.com/catalog/news.php?news_id=181#newsid181
>>>> http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=767411
>>>> http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7129

>>> somewhat stronger statement from March of this year

>> Unfortunately, nothing there about the late 2010 vs. late 2011 discrepancy
>> I was getting at.

> It's possible that Trevor brought Amigakit onboard in a consulting role late 2010
> to help get the X1000 development back on track under A-Eon CVBA, with the
> change to A-Eon Technology Ltd (and hence change in ownership & management)
> taking place in the October 2011 period.

It seems your own excellent research revealing that Hermans stepped down from being an A-Eon director in December 2010 has finally solved that 2010 vs. 2011 mystery:

http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/250623.shtml

So I guess it went something like this:

04/2009: A-Eon CVBA founded in Belgium by Hermans, T. Dickinson and Moorley as shareholders as well as directors
12/2010: Hermans quits his A-Eon CVBA director position (and relinquishes his shares), AmigaKit/Leaman gets involved as consultant or similar
10/2011: A-Eon CVBA starts omitting the mention of its legal form in press releases
04/2012: A-Eon Ltd. founded in UK by Leaman, T. Dickinson and C. Dickinson as shareholders with Leaman acting as sole director
04/2013: A-Eon CVBA dissolved (T. Dickinson and Moorley are mentioned in this paper)

Any objections, remarks, additions?

Update:

> drivers for [...] onboard Ethernet are still not completed.

Seems supported now, not sure since when:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39454&forum=33&start=20#743237

...or not:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39487&forum=2&start=80#744168
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39487&forum=2&start=100#744413

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 04.11.2014 - 23:19 ]

Addendum:

> So I guess it went something like this:
> [...]
> 04/2012: A-Eon Ltd. founded in UK by Leaman, T. Dickinson and C. Dickinson as partners
> with Leaman acting as sole director
> [...]
> Any objections, remarks, additions?

"Trevor Dickinson, co-founder and managing director of A-EON Technology"
http://amiga30.com/kickstarter-launched/
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/890300835/amiga-30th-anniversary-in-california

"Trevor is co-founder and the Managing director A-Eon."
http://www.kickstarter.com/profiles/890300835/bio

So he is an (the?) A-Eon Technology Ltd. director after all?