> I also believe there are one or a few drivers for nVidia cards (don't know the state regarding
> 3D/overlay etc).

AROS has Nouveau with Gallium3D and Mesa.

All those points of view and opinions of yours, true or not, may be important to you, but they are not important to me.

And unless you have been recently added to the MorphOS Dev. Team, I doubt you know what their plans are for the future.

I enjoy using both AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS3.x, but currently believe that MorphOS3.2 is clearly more advanced and enjoyable to use. Other people prefer AmigaOS4.x, and i have no problem with their choice to use what ever they want, or to wait how ever long they want for future features and software.

As for AROS and MorphOS joining forces, I don't care how it happens, or which name they choose to work under, but my hope remains that they do join forces some day and the best time for them to do so, would be when the MorphOS Dev. Team decides to begin work on the x86/x64 platform.

IF, that should be IF "the MorphOS Dev. Team decides to begin work on the x86/x64 platform"

As you pointed out David, none of us know what is in store.

I am enjoying the current focus on PPC platforms.

[ Edited by Jim 15.09.2013 - 05:19 ]

@amigadave

The carrot dangling has probably caused more damage than you understand, it still continues, and when they do it for obvious impossible features like SMP as a way to shift ridiculously priced products that's supposed to use this feature, then it turns pure ugly. It's not about being "positive", "forgiving" or "generous of sliding deadlines"; FUD, foul play and deceit has been a red line throughout OS4's entire existence and if you don't call out on the bluffs, or indeed the *blatant lies*, then there will be no incentive for them to stop, and they will continue with this behavior. And some people will never understand that they have been fooled, they'll just continue limping on trying to catch the carrot (that occasionally is replaced by another carrot). Ben Hermans isn't selling an existing product, he is selling a list of dreams and promises that is *always* "around the corner", but *never* arrives. And delivering SMP with retained Amiga compatibility would have been impossible even if they had paid the developers who made OS4 in the first place, and it won't exactly be easier without it.

When it comes to this constant discussion about "cooperation" - MorphOS has on a few occasions used AROS code, and AFAIK also returned their improvements to AROS. Right now I don't think AROS has a lot to offer that MorphOS needs. And MorphOS developers seems to like to develop *their* OS, the AROS developers seems to like to develop *theirs*. Obviously, because that's what they are doing. Right? And they have the right to do so. This isn't an issue for "democratic polling", so debates around it is kind of redundant. AROS was started long before MorphOS, and the reason to why MorphOS was started despite AROS already existed was because someone (like the MorphOS developers) thought that AROS wasn't the answer, they wanted to do their own OS. AROS is an unmanaged, anarchistic body that grows spontaneously (sometimes in strange areas) and without a central plan, discipline or order. AROS is fun for those involved, no doubt. But MorphOS came a lot further in much shorter time. Let's just face it - there are fundamental differences between them both, not just technical, but also in the view of methodology. IMHO this is not a bad thing, rather the opposite. There is room for both, I think there is a need for both (somewhat different needs though), and had both been the same, then one had been redundant.


@Jim
Quote:

It's not a matter of "enjoying the current focus on PPC platforms", it's a matter whether or not you want MorphOS to continue in the future as well, or if all the effort should be thrown away and be left floating away down the stream of history. PPC is clearly dead (or since we still can get machines as second hand, maybe the definition can be allowed to slide to "dying"). Acube and Aeon has clearly made a point that it's impossible to build modern (or at leasnt semi-modern (or at least not ancient)) machines at a reasonable price and create a sustainable market that can evolve (without it, there is no point). MorphOS soon supports every single PPC system worth supporting. The MorphOS team has certainly made the best of the situation, but is about to reach the outer boundaries of what PPC has to offer. This has been coming for several years already. Soon owners of old Mac PPC HW (totally unaware of the "massive" MorphOS market as they are) will start thinking it's not even worth the effort of putting up the old PPC gear for sale anymore, but simply put it in the trash. It's soon a *decade* since Apple declared they will abandon PPC and they haven't released new OS versions for it for some time now. And technology dies, of old age if for no other reason. Everything ends. PPC on desktop/laptop kind of ended in 2005. The path MorphOS is currently travelling on is only going in one direction. It's something inevitable, and not a matter of debate.

[ Edited by takemehomegrandma 15.09.2013 - 18:18 ]

> MorphOS soon supports every single PPC system worth supporting.

Does "soon" allude to the announced Sam460 port? Btw, as that thread shows, certain yet unsupported iMac G5 models are apparently deemed worth supporting by some people, as is the last PowerMac G5 (late 2005) generation.

@takemehomegrandma,

I am not debating anything, only expressing my own opinions and hopes for the future. And in my opinion, both AROS and MorphOS would progress faster if they combined forces and decided to work toward a common goal, no matter what they decided to call it, or who was put in charge of managing it. Obviously, more organization than is currently present with AROS, would be a good thing.

All your talk in "absolutes" is laughable. You have a very narrow point of view and cannot see your way out of your paper bag. I also don't see how any of your years of "calling Ben Hermans' bluffs" has made one bit of difference in how Hyperion behaves. I also believe that anyone who chooses to use AmigaOS4.x or any other operating system without first researching all aspects of its features, hardware it runs on, and history of the company behind it, well then they deserve exactly what they get and should not complain when the promises are not kept, or features never arrive.

Why you think it is your job to try to protect all these ignorant users from making a mistake, or being fooled by Ben Hermans is very amusing. MorphOS is a good enough operating system to stand on its own merits when compared to AmigaOS4.x, or AROS, so there is no reason to mention failed promises, or lack of features of any other operating system, when you can just point out the positive aspects of MorphOS to potential new users and let them choose if it is the right choice for them. That is the approach I take at each AmiWest Show, and it has worked very well for the last 5 or 6 years.

Edit:

I will even go further and state that I know many users who have been turned off by your and other peoples negative campaign against Hyperion, Ben Hermans and AmigaOS4.x in general, to the point that they will never consider even looking at what MorphOS has to offer. You and others will counter that it is "Good", or perfectly acceptable to lose such people and we don't need them as members of the MorphOS community, but what if just one, or several of those people turned away are talented programmers, who might have contributed some useful software for our platform of choice?

That is all I have to say on this topic, as it is useless to debate such things with someone who has such opposing ideas to my own. You will go on doing what you do, and I will continue as I have done in the past years, trying to make friends with other AmigaOS4.x users and programmers and show them what MorphOS3.x is capable of doing.

As for Henes comment that everyone who does not denounce Ben Hermans, or Hyperion being a criminal, is then an accomplice to what ever he has done, you are joking, aren't you? I don't defend their choices or policies, I don't like many things they have done or said, and I don't agree how they manage their business, but that is their (or his) decision and choices which they (he) have to live with. In my own opinion, Ben Hermans is driving AmigaOS4.x straight into the ground and destroying what little is left of the future for AmigaOS4.x systems, and he will never let go the control he now owns, until his dying breath. But that is just my own opinion and counts for nothing toward what they will, or will not do in the future. He is the architect behind acquiring the rights to controlling AmigaOS4.x development, so there is nothing anyone else can do about what decisions are now made.

[ Edited by amigadave 16.09.2013 - 16:29 ]

amigadave,
Quote:

I would say evidence suggest that most AROS-devs are AROS-devs and not MorphOS or 0S4-devs mainly because they don't want to "get organized".

Still doesn't mean that code couldn't flow between AROS and MorphOS on specific projects.

Quote:
My moral tells me that not denouncing a criminal act is being its accounplice.

The world will never have enough idealists.


[ Edited by Henes 15.09.2013 - 23:21 ]

> This computer is still a paperware for now

New information on the P-Cubed from one week ago:

"we are currently finalizing pricing and availability for both the CTS-1000 and P-Cubed at this time. [...] The current plan for the P-Cubed is an single ethernet port."
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-ppc/2013-09/msg00012.html

...and some older ones from 1.5 months ago that confirm Krashan's "paperware" comment:

"sometimes things get placed on the back burner. I can assure you, it's not dead. We are looking at places to finish the BOM and produce some initial boards."
http://ben-collins.blogspot.com/2012/11/servergy-announces-new-powerpc.html?showComment=1376435397591#c5701107643233468404

Addendum:

> SATA controllers on P5 must be enabled, thus x4 x4 x1 x1 PCIe config is best

Seems like that's exactly the PCIe configuration A-Eon is using on the Cyrus board:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38284&forum=2&start=100#719786

(One x4 will have x16 slot, just like done on Sam460ex, only that with QorIQ P5 it's PCIe 2.0 instead of PCIe 1.x with PPC460EX. This also means PCIe bandwidth for graphics on Cyrus is half that of Nemo's PCIe 1.x x16.)

Update:

> "we are currently finalizing pricing and availability for both the CTS-1000 and P-Cubed
> at this time. [...] The current plan for the P-Cubed is an single ethernet port."
> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-ppc/2013-09/msg00012.html

P4080-based CTS-1000 has been officially launched:
http://www.servergy.com/servergy-launches-new-class-of-servers/

Meanwhile, all traces of the P-Cubed seem to have been removed from http://www.servergy.com.

Quote:

Just noticed this myself - google's search results even still show page hits, but even the orginal news release (October 2010) has been removed.

Quote:

As yet no reply from Chris Rains to the e-mail I sent asking for clarification/update on the status of my pre-order enquiry.
AFter completing the form I was sent an e-mail stating I would be on the pre-order list 'soon',, however this was never followed up with any progress.

I strongly suspect either it was a prospective 'test' of the potential market for such a product, or (more cynically) a tool to boost Servergy's value on paper.

> I strongly suspect either it was a prospective 'test' of the potential market for
> such a product, or (more cynically) a tool to boost Servergy's value on paper.

Yes, given that they apparently didn't even have a prototype board as late as August (i.e. 9 months after the announcement), there's certainly something fishy there.

> True SMP can't be incorporated in Amiga without breaking the Amiga.

ssolie says this:

"X-Kernel Update
[...]
- All cores schedule tasks independently
- Load balancing between cores"
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1010

"Cyrus just happens to use the x-kernel exclusively unlike the X1000 which can run either kernel. At some point we'll merge the two kernel streams together of course."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38284&forum=2&start=300#720698

Well, let's see...

Quote:



Yeah, "merge the two kernel streams together"...

I don't even know where to start on that statement, it's ... surreal! Does he have a clue at all? "Merging kernel streams", I mean, WTF? What? Why? How? One is obviuosly the old "Exec SG" made by the Friedens (made for the OS4 which aims to be Amiga compatible), the new one (wonder who is doing that one BTW, maybe ssolie himself?) is SMP enabled and thus incompatible to the Amiga environment! "Merge" these?

"Well, let's see" indeed!

Well, after all, this is "ssolie", the man who "has an amazing grasp of Amiga programming, so much so that he has re-written the 'C' language to make it more Amiga efficient"!

So who knows?

...also interesting to see that the "Cyrus" will *only* run the new SMP enabled kernel, and *not* the Amiga compatible one!

Now I just hope that they choose to call these Amiga incompatible systems "A3000" or "A5000" or such, because then the irony couldn't possibly become bigger!

> "Cyrus" will *only* run the new SMP enabled kernel, and *not* the Amiga compatible one!

He used present tense there, not future tense.

> To me it seems that T2080 could be pretty good PA6T replacement.

Sampling now:

http://media.freescale.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=196520&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1871882

Quote:

The T2080 looks like a good possible CPU for any PPC Amiga/Morph/AROS system, if any kind of multi-processor support can be completed. The fact that it includes Altivec is a plus.

Wow, glad I waited awhile before wading back into this one.
I, for one, am still interested in current developments in PPC hardware and enjoy hearing about they endeavors of those promoting them.
While I can understand takemehomegrandma's opinions on the impracticality of expecting people to pay $3000 for a new system, I can not join in his apparent desire to deride A-eon's new products.
I am very comfortable with the direction that Paul Gentle and Varisys have taken A-eon's product line.
Paul (and Andreas I might add) have been pointing to the Qorlq line for some time as the best choice for new development.
Is this stuff expensive?
Your damned right it is, and with the low sales volumes and relatively high processor prices I can't see this changing.
BUT, at least someone is building new hardware.
YEAH, its not X86 or ARM based.
OUR operating system of choice does NOT run on those architectures.
And if it ever will, or when it might, is completely in the hands of the developers - WHOSE JUDGEMENT I TRUST IMPLICITLY.

Haven't we had a pretty good run these last several years?
Do you see any mistakes in their judgement, because I do not.
I have said this before, and until the adoption of an new ISA is announced I will keep repeating it,
if you want to use X86 or ARM hardware, switch to AROS - and stop trying to bully the MorphOS developers to follow whatever course of action you deem correct.
Do you honestly think these guys have remained in this community without the skills and abilities that allow them to render good judgments?

Honestly, I have been in personal computing since its inception (from the early days when if you wanted it you built it), and frankly these guys are some of the most talented developers that I have ever been fortunate enough to know (and have had the blessing of using their creative outputs).

Isn't it about "shut the fuck up" time?
No, we have not explored that last useful PPC hardware.
There is still Acube's product line, the other G5 Macs (especially the PCIe models), and even A-eon's new designs - which curiously enough feature processors that Andreas has been quietly point us toward for years.

And if the developers should decide that they have tired from spending years working hard with virtually no reward at developing this OS, and that they can no longer handle the entirely too Amiga-like piss poor attitude of the user base, that they no longer care to throw their pearls before swine...

I will have what we've been given. And in years to come I think I'll look back on this with a strong sense of admiration for the people who pushed this so far.

Personally, I'd like to render my apologies for ever asking for more and my sincere thanks for what has been rendered.

Damned good job guys.
I wish I had something even marginally close to this in my resume.
If you are not recognized in this life, I suspect you have accomplished enough to have earned your reward in the next.

Sincerely,
Jim Igou

@Jim

I know what you mean, but I think there is another way of looking at it.

Imagine MorphOS being released and everybody just "Oh, cool. Great job." and then return to another OS of choice. People then don't refrain from demand stuff or pester the developers because they are polite. They don't because they don't care.

Having a lot of people demanding function A or program B is a clear sign of appriciation. They like this so much that they really wants this to move forward. Maybe a lot faster than whats realisticly possible, but you can't blame people for not understanding the true nature of the development process.

I think that when people are vocal about their concern of the future (?) platform shift, it's simply because they want there to be a future. I'm one of them. And if that isn't a true sign of appriciation I don't know what is.

[ Edited by Yasu 06.11.2013 - 13:52 ]

Trust me, over night I had some chance to think over that post and it may be a little over the top.
And I too have my own opinions about an ISA change, if one occurs.

But for now, can't we just be grateful that we have gotten this far?

And, to takemehomegrandma, if it appears that I have abused you too, my apologias.

Quote:

Where have you read that the "new SMP enabled kernel" will not be "Amiga compatible"?

Other than several assumptions from people outside Hyperion about any kind of multi-processor, or multi-core support breaking Amiga compatibility, I have not seen any definitive statements from Hyperion that their proposed "SMP support" will break Amiga compatibility.

I trust many of the people who have been saying that "True SMP" (what ever that really means), cannot be accomplished without breaking Amiga backward compatibility, we don't yet know what kind of SMP support Hyperion is going to implement, and therefore don't know if it will break Amiga backward compatibility (unless I missed some statement from them).

The impression I have gotten from the statements I have read from Hyperion lead me to believe the way they are going to implement some kind of multi-processor/core support will NOT break backward Amiga compatibility, but as I wrote above, I have not seen anything from Hyperion that clearly states one way or the other about backward Amiga compatibility.

[ Edited by amigadave 06.11.2013 - 13:53 ]

> several assumptions from people outside Hyperion about any kind of multi-processor,
> or multi-core support breaking Amiga compatibility

Where have you seen those assumptions? I can only remember this being said about *symmetric* multiprocessing, and I think everybody has been in agreement that asymmetric multiprocessing won't break any compatibility.

> we don't yet know what kind of SMP support Hyperion is going to implement

What kinds of SMP support are there?