ASiegel,
Quote:

I apologize to the forum members for that insulting remark, but to be truthful, his actions and insults toward me in the past, for no other reason than my decision to purchase, use and enjoy my X1000 have IMO earned him my dislike and insults in return.

I will not stoop to his level again.

[ Edited by amigadave 06.06.2012 - 00:46 ]

Quote:


Is there any particular reason you are building this list?
It's a bit ...creepy.

What's more, it might even be seen as harassment. That's a line you don't want to cross.

In the OS4 world the X1000 is the best machine you can get. If I was an OS4 user I would have got one. Yes, really.

I do know a little about XMOS. They are a local company to me and started out of the university department I am currently studying at. XMOS itself was conceived as a final-year project of Ali Dixon (on the same course I am on now, no less), and a couple of professors in the department left and joined him to set it up.

Their primary market are embedded controllers, and as academic tools for concurrent programming. XMOS chips are pretty underpowered, yet have practical application due to their design philosophy of parallelism from the ground up (ironic considering OS4's lack of SMP), and ultra-low-latency interface response times, making them useful as embedded controllers. In desktop computers? Not so much.

I don't even think XMOS is that interested in the X1000, as despite being the only proposed desktop computer to use an XMOS controller, its market potential is quite insignificant. Even the MorphOS team aren't interested in the X1000. I don't think the AROS team are either.

Netbook performance at workstation prices with a dated OS? Where can I sign up? :)

On the other hand - are you listening MorphOS Team? Mac Minis are nice and all, but you could do with an X1000 killer, double the performance of the X1000 at half the cost and running MorphOS. Might put the final nail in the X1000's coffin.


P.S. For some reason, the X1000 reminds me of this machine.

[ Edited by Mequa 07.06.2012 - 02:41 ]

"final nail in the X1000's coffin"
What good would that give to Amiga community?

It's good that there are some people that try to produce new HW.

btw. x1000 reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeBox
And perhaps xena should have more easy to access I/O, like BeBox had.
Then it could easily replace things like xmos dev kits.
"The XMOS AVB Reference Design Kit is priced at US$3750"

[ Edited by KimmoK 07.06.2012 - 08:09 ]

> are you listening MorphOS Team? [...] you could do with an X1000
> killer, double the performance of the X1000 at half the cost and
> running MorphOS.

On Power Architecture? If yes, on what hardware? Does the 2.7 GHz G5 PowerMac provide twice the per-core performance of the 1.8 GHz X1000?

> "The XMOS AVB Reference Design Kit is priced at US$3750"

That was 3 years ago. It's currently available for 349 USD:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/XK-AVB-LC-SYS

Quote:

But you can't! The Pegasos1, the Pegasos2, the Efika, the AmigaOne SE, the AmigaOne XE, the AmigaOne micro, the Sam440, the Sam460 — they have all been on the market, they have all been stocked up and "in production", meaning any potential customer is *actually able to buy it*, and when numbers in warehouses were running low, new production runs were made to *keep* the product available on the market. See the difference? You can't get the X1000, not "in the OS4 world" either, it's not only in the *real* world they aren't here!

Quote:

Well honestly, it's not *me* who is stopping you from becoming one, is it? Isn't the fact that there aren't any AmigaOne X1000's on the market a bigger obstacle than *me* "preventing" you from getting one? And the fact that it is $3,000+ for 2005 level Mac performance doesn't really help either, does it, even if it *would* have been for sale, right? Talk is cheap minator! The A1X1K however, isn't...


@ thread

Some people actually believes what Hyperion says to such a degree that they happily cash in any checks written to them, *long* before there are any cover for it. Most often the checks never gets any cover whatsoever - there has been so many broken promises in the past, so many features announced, but then silently dropped as time goes by. But nobody seems to remember this. It took a decade for them to develop USB2, and it's still not 100% reliable for 100% of the users (judging from posts at AW.net), and now the same people have been selling true SMP for quite some time. And some people buys this, with a happy smile in their face! "KimmoK" for example has made countless of posts over at Amiga.org about how bright the future is for OS4 and PPC since there are coming so many new CPU's having up to 26 cores or whatever. Like OS4 would have had true SMP already! Check — cash in! And the Xorro and Xena are other key features of the AmigaOne X1000, something that has been hyped for several years now. We have heard all kinds of amusing speculations from enthusiasts that just got themselves another check from Hyperion of all the fantastic things this could mean for OS4, ranging all the way up to having an OS4 based super computer render station with massive amounts of parallel cores! Check — cash in! But guess what it can do on OS4? It can flash LED's!

These are the two main features of the AmigaOne X1000, the two key selling points, and they simply aren't here, and possibly *never will* (especially the true SMP without breaking the Amiga), hence the "Vapor". And I think some of you people should reflect a bit over the fact that even A-eon was using the term "First contact" as a suffix to the product name. This is "Earlybird" written differently. Meaning not even A-eon consider it to be a fully developed system yet (and they are actually being honest about it), and I'm very amused that some people here *still* wants to argue about this fact so vividly. The AmigaOne X1000 is still under heavy development, it has a long way to go to reach its promised goals, the few systems in existence are more like prototypes under development than the real product it is set out to become some day. Those of you saying "it's here" aren't helping, because it's *not* here, and given the enormous challenges of *getting* it here are so grandiose (if not impossible altogether) that the risk of it not getting here is *overwhelming* (especially considering Hyperion's underwhelming track record), so chances are that you are actually *participating* in handing out those Hyperion checks that never will get covered, thus sharing the guilt.

Quote:Quote:

Character assassination has always been the standard method used by OS4 crowd when facing uncomfortable arguments they can't handle. I guess some things never change. The above words are coming from the OS4 development leader, and one of the moderators over at AmigaWorld.net; point out that you can't buy the X1000, that it still has some *very big* development challenges to overcome (some would say impossible) in order to reach its announced specifications, then you have a sick mind, your words are insane ramblings, you are in need of professional help should see a doctor.

Nice...

[ Edited by takemehomegrandma 07.06.2012 - 09:56 ]

> the same people have been selling true SMP for quite some time. [...]
> And the Xorro and Xena are other key features of the AmigaOne X1000 [...].
> [...] These are the two main features of the AmigaOne X1000, the two
> key selling points

From your posting #690:

"100% of what the "customers" pay for, is for the promise of it being *the fastest way of running OS4*"

The undisputable fact is that the X1000 actually *is* "the fastest way of running OS4", even without SMP support and thus with only one CPU core in use. So according to your own previous statement, the customers got 100% of what they paid for when they purchased their X1000. And how can Xena/Xorro be among the X1000's "key selling points" when according to your own statement the customers paid 0% of the total price for it?

> not even A-eon consider it to be a fully developed system yet (and
> they are actually being honest about it), and I'm very amused that
> some people here *still* wants to argue about this fact so vividly.

Who does?

> Those of you saying "it's here" [...] are actually *participating* in
> handing out those Hyperion checks that never will get covered, thus
> sharing the guilt.

I keep saying that according to what I perceive are the commonplace definitions of the terms, the AmigaOne X1000
* is not vapourware
* is not a prototype
* is in possession of customers
* is a product
* and was in production for a certain period of time (and is supposed to get into production again).

So now, what exactly am I guilty of? :-)

KimmoK,
Quote:
NEW hardware? It's thrown together from obsolete parts at an outrageous price. X1000 is just a way of fleecing Amiga enthusiasts.

Quote:

The quad-core XC-1A Development Kit (with XS1-G4 chip) goes for US $99. (I had fun with one of those, producing a 32-threaded image filter, LED-based game and ant simulator.)

XMOS chip family

If the X1000's Xena is a dual-core XS1-L2, then looking at the above specs, the XC-1A's quad-core XS1-G4 is around twice as powerful.

[ Edited by Mequa 07.06.2012 - 12:28 ]

"Does the 2.7 GHz G5 PowerMac provide twice the per-core performance of the 1.8 GHz X1000?"

reminds me that no one has yet provided Blender 2.62 tests run on G5 Mac.
"112s blender 2.62 PA6T 1.8Ghz Dualcore (LinuxMint)
113s blender 2.62 G4 1.8Ghz DualCPU !
115s blender 2.43 G5 2.3Ghz Dualcore (erroneously reported singlecore?)
117s blender 2.44 G5 2.3Ghz Dualcore
202s blender 2.5a PowerBook 1667Mhz
205s blender latest PowerBook 1667Mhz (Piru)
256s blender 2.42 PowerBook 1667Mhz
305s blender 2.43 PowerBook 1667Mhz
318s blender 2.44 PMac 1600Mhz
368s blender 2.43 MacMini 1420Mhz
"

Untill then. G4 and PA6T is faster than G5.

@Mequa

Mainly the x1000 CPU is in y2006 performance range (modern netbook range), otherwise it's more modern than any PowerPC Mac and as modern as average PC today.

Other than that, most people can see the difference between HW in production vs old HW.

[ Edited by KimmoK 07.06.2012 - 14:32 ]

@Andreas_Wolf

Quote:

Well, the list posted had a line omitted anyway. After some discussion to clarify what constituted the definition, he posted it with the list so there would be no confusion. In essence...his thread...his terms.

Quote:

I don't see any dramatic difference between what you and red have said. Have we over analyzed this -yet-?

source

Oh, the bit about Micros being warehoused. Priceless!

#6

>> Does the 2.7 GHz G5 PowerMac provide twice the per-core performance
>> of the 1.8 GHz X1000?

> no one has yet provided Blender 2.62 tests run on G5 Mac.

Then let's just take 2.48/2.49 test runs (single core):

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35671&forum=34&start=140#665585
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35671&forum=34&start=160#665666

1.8 GHz AmigaOne X1000: 420s
2.3 GHz G5 PowerMac: 223s

For the 2.7 GHz G5 PowerMac to be twice as fast as the X1000 it would have to reach 210s. Linearily scaled, 223s at 2.3 GHz means 190s at 2.7 GHz and 206s at 2.5 GHz. So in terms of this single-core Blender 2.48/2.49 benchmark, a 2.5+ GHz G5 PowerMac is (more than) twice as fast as the 1.8 GHz AmigaOne X1000. This in turn entails that MorphOS running on 2.5+ GHz G5 PowerMacs would fulfil Mequa's wish :-)

> Untill then. G4 and PA6T is faster than G5. ;-)

In your dreams :-)

> otherwise it's [...] as modern as average PC today.

Average PC existing in the households today maybe, but not average PC brand-new for sale today, see R700 GPU, DDR2 RAM, PCIe v1.x, SATA2, USB2.

@Andreas

You see the AmigaOne X1000 as a Nemo motherboard with various bundled peripherals, while I see the AmigaOne X1000 as the SMP and Xorro/Xena enabled *OS4 system* it was announced to be (and OS4 is not only the entire base for its name- and boing-ball license, it's also the sole reason to its entire existence). You think it's enough that they make 2 production batches (soon 3?) financed by pre-orders to call it "here/available", while I think there is more to it than that in order to be able to say it's on the market, like having it in stock at least at the manufacturer so that potential customers are actually able to buy the product (like all previous AmigaOnes, all Sam's, all Pegasos motherboards, all Individual Computing's products, well, practically *all* similar consumer electronics products in existence), being able to buy a product is kind of essential in this context IMHO, and by "product" I of course also mean the SMP and Xorro/Xena enabled *OS4 system* it is meant to be. You think it's ready developed since the nemo design is done, I think there are huge development challanges still to be overcome, especially bringing true SMP to OS4 without breaking the Amiga in it, heck it's still even lacking fundamental drivers for its on board controllers, so it's not ready. I'm actually looking forward to be proven wrong by "ssolie" when he will bring true SMP capabilities to OS4.2, which should not be very far off now, since this is said to be the next OS4 version (of course this has been changed before, OS4.1.3 was said to be the last one, but then they had to make this 4.1.4 quickfix release to mend what 4.1.3 broke, and now we have 4.1.5 for the A1X1K (soon to be relased to other "Amigas" as well?)); it will be very interesting to see, since it might actually involve true magic. You think it's a done deal, that the AmigaOne is ready, here, and a finished product, while I think the challenges of reaching the specs it is said to have are so overwhelming (and Hyperion's track record so underwhelming) that it's very doubtful it will *ever* reach its goal, hence "Vapor". And I think we will never agree on any of this.

@number6

Here is a better link:

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29050

"Vapor here is defined as products announced for the Amiga market that after a long period of time never materialized for sale in that form."

How long is "a long period of time"? 2.5 years and counting (about a full computer/generation lifetime), with no trustworthy signs of it will *ever* reach its goals, no matter any additional time you might allow?

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

All features that trump our own hardware (except for the last - IF you add a PCI USB card).
But our software does have better quality.

> You see the AmigaOne X1000 as a Nemo motherboard with various
> bundled peripherals

...on the hardware side and OS4 on the software side. Yet OS4 currently not fully supporting the hardware doesn't make the X1000 a "prototype" or "vapourware" to me.

> You think it's enough that they make 2 production batches (soon 3?)
> financed by pre-orders to call it "here/available"

No, I think and said that is enough to call it non-vapourware, non-prototype and a product that was in production, as well as to call its existing purchasers customers.

> being able to buy a product is kind of essential in this context IMHO

For something to be non-vapourware and a product, as I understand these terms, it's sufficient that it was in production and buyable at a certain point or period of time.

> You think it's ready developed since the nemo design is done

No, I think and said that the hardware side of the AmigaOne X1000 product is readily developed.

> it's still even lacking fundamental drivers for its on board controllers

2 of them.

> true SMP capabilities to OS4.2 [...] should not be very far off now

They still have some time left:
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7183&start=662 :-)

> You think it's a done deal, that the AmigaOne is ready, here, and a
> finished product

No, I don't think nor said that. I said "product", not "finished product".

> I think we will never agree on any of this.

That is probably true.

>> R700 GPU, DDR2 RAM, PCIe v1.x, SATA2, USB2

> All features that trump our own hardware (except for the last - IF
> you add a PCI USB card).

My Mac mini has on-board USB2, and so does the eMac :-) For the rest you are right of course, although my comparison was with new PC systems rather than with old PPC Macs ;-)

@takemehomegrandma

According to your own definition all Sam systems are complete vapourware:

Disappointed from OS support of board components? The FPGA wasn't supported at OS level until recently. Proper support of the single PCI slot in the Sam440ep mini? Wasn't there in the beginning.
No continuous availabiltiy: You could (and can) actually try to buy one. But, surprise, surprise, they are often unavailable. Because ACube waits until enough orders are in to make another batch of boards (sounds familiar, doesn't it?). I (for example) waited 5 months until delivery of my Sam440ep. After this batch the Sam was again unavailable - until the next batch were produced.

So, the same "vapourware" definition is true for the Sams - at least in the minimum sense of production in batches.

In conclusion for AmigaOS we only have vapourware HW or old, discontinued HW (here: Pegasos II, Teron-AmigaOnes). For MorphOS only the latter is true.

Why not let the people happily use their vapourware and/or outdated stuff? But... - on the other hand this thread is one of the most entertaining one's I've seen here at MorphZone since months...

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

True, my own PC is a little dated but its got a 3.6GHz Quad core processor, an R800 video card in a PCIe 2.0 slot, DDR3, and USB 3.0.
But it doesn't run MorphOS and neither does the X1000. ;(

"Average PC existing in the households today maybe,"

Yes, that's what I meant.

"but not average PC brand-new for sale today, see R700 GPU, DDR2 RAM, PCIe v1.x, SATA2, USB2."
Nemo can hold the same GPU than latest x86, DDR2 is sometimes faster than DDR3, PCIe v1 is enouh for nemo's CPU's capabilities 2.0/3.0 could not give extra on it, most modern hard drives do not transfer more than sata2 can handle, not all new PCs have USB3 and very rarely it's supported by peripherals. So x1000 is not too obsolete on those issues. Surely the lack of driver SW for all that modern HW makes one cry. But that's the same also for latest x86 when AROS is run natively (when hosted you get more goodies, I know).

Anyway. 3000eur is too much for a weird hobby toy for most people. Also for me.

And one nasty thing... the 3D support is coming first&foremost for r700, IIRC. And r700 GPUs are disappearing from average PC shop... I hope the new GFX system will more easily support future GPUs, one day.
( I wonder what all we had already if there was no split in OS developing resources... )

[ Edited by KimmoK 07.06.2012 - 22:11 ]

>> but not average PC brand-new for sale today, see R700 GPU,
>> DDR2 RAM, PCIe v1.x, SATA2, USB2.

> Nemo can hold the same GPU than latest x86

True, but the AmigaOne X1000 system is specified by A-Eon with R700:

http://www.a-eon.com/x1000.html

> DDR2 is sometimes faster than DDR3

Only in cases where latency has more impact than bandwidth.

> PCIe v1 is enouh for nemo's CPU's capabilities 2.0/3.0
> could not give extra on it, most modern hard drives do not
> transfer more than sata2 can handle, not all new PCs have
> USB3 and very rarely it's supported by peripherals.

True :-)

> And one nasty thing... the 3D support is coming first&foremost for
> r700, IIRC. And r700 GPUs are disappearing from average PC shop

How does that matter when the X1000 already comes with it pre-installed? I take it AmigaKit have stocked at least as many of those cards as A-Eon have PA6T chips in their possession ;-)

> I hope the new GFX system will more easily support future GPUs, one day.

Gallium3D/Mesa already supports up to R900:

http://www.x.org/wiki/GalliumStatus

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

Wow! That improved significantly.

Nice to see that Gallium info.

I know that Gallium is not the fastest 3D (low level) driver out there, but it seems appealing featurewise (done+WIP+planned):

Some features/supported things for video stuff:
•g3dvl: Generic GPU-Accelerated Video Decoding
•g3dvl: The old video decoder Younes wrote for GSoC a few years ago.

Some features/supported things for new games and the porting of games:
•d3d1x: Direct 3D 10/11 (easier PPC game ports from Xbox360?? & windows.)
*mesa: done for r600 (ATI R600/R700/R800/R900), r300 (ATI R300/R400/R500)

Some features/supported things to boost math on slow CPU machines:
*opencl (I know OpenCL itself is a lot of work and then the applications SW, but Gallium enables the start of the work, one day.)

...One day PCIe capable Amigan HW (with Gallium) will be a lot more nicer than today.
"With regards to graphics driver support for AmigaOS4. This is where we are spending most of our effort -- but more news on this later.
-TrevorD"

Is there any info what MOS team is planning to do to use the latest GPUs? Also Gallium?
Perhaps only after the architecture change as old Macs are pretty well accelerated already????

[ Edited by KimmoK 08.06.2012 - 09:16 ]

Quote:

No of course not (and if you are replying to my posts, please bother to actually read them first). While no or flaky drivers is a discomfort that no paying customers should have to live with, it's still *very very* far from promising a re-engineering of Amiga OS in a way that many people simply describes as impossible. Please tell me you see the difference?

[ Edited by takemehomegrandma 08.06.2012 - 09:39 ]

> d3d1x: Direct 3D 10/11

Only done/WIP for nVidia so far according to the table.

> opencl

Looks bad for R700:
"N/A", "Only partial OpenCL support is possible, support through vertex shaders."

http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/GalliumCompute#Current_Status

> Is there any info what MOS team is planning to do to use the latest
> GPUs? Also Gallium?

Their stance regarding Gallium3D from almost 2 years ago:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7464&forum=11&start=1

I'm not aware of any more recent statements.